Mighty Bean

Moderation.  I like some soy products but I don't live on the stuff.  Anytime you severly limit your diet you are going to get concentrated doses of the good and the bad in any food.  There is no perfect food.

Miso anyone?

I knew I would love soy when I discovered Ritchie Valens, as in "Soy capitan, soy capitan!!!"

But soy is actually a dietary tragedy in this country. FERMENTED soy is magnificent. But run, do not walk, RUN AWAY from the unfermented soy products for sale in the US.

Now, if the topic turns back to fermented soy and other forms of moldy kinds of bean curd, well, I'm all ears - or mouth. I sometimes think I'm turning Japanese, I like soy so much. I think I'm turning Japanese; I really think so.

Strange coincidence, but before today's topic came up I had had a sudden urge to eat extremely hot ma bo tofu tonight. I loaded up on it and got a satisfying flopsweat. I think I subsisted on the stuff when I lived in Taiwan.

Oh no Jonathan, should we ask the doctor, should we have the doctor take a picture?

Ok I'm not going any further with that song.

Jonathan Eells:  Now I can't stop singing La Bamba,

Capt. Neptune:

I am so sorry to be late in replying to the 11 Oct. post. This computer was declining to return to prior dates, but now seems to have stopped doing so. We could be geographic blood brothers. I have a home on the Durham/Orange county line (going north from Chapel Hill on 15-501, one veers rightward at what is once at Hardee's and is now Wendy's) in a neighborhood called Five Oaks (27707 zip code).It's eerily close to Duke Forest, virtually all of which I've tramped. It may sound a little strange, but friends during residency  and I, after very trying days, getting off work at unholy hours(ie, 2-3 am), would often drive out to the Duke Forest entrance just around the corner from Erwin Road, and go walk for 30-45 minutes by flashlight or moonlight just to wind down, breathe the air, and dispense with the remains of the day.

As regards the coastal areas, I know those very well also. If I rewind the tape of my memory as far back as it will go, among the very earliest of life memories is of Wrightsville Beach, and experiencing the splash for the first time of salty water in my nose and mouth. A veterinarian friend for whom I worked a lot in high school has retired very close to where you are (he's become a man of the vine, if you know what I mean, and is quite reclusive; he probably wouldn't want me giving out his name). You are in a wonderful area. I had a thing for driving down to that area at off-season times of the year, such as Thanksgiving.

My house there is occupied now by a friend who fell on hard times and needed a place to which to escape, quickly, from a deteriorating marriage. I will never sell that house, and if I have any choice as to where I daw my last breath, it will be there. That area I feel is where a big part of my spirit resides.

It sounds very cliched, but I really didn't know what I had there, as a great environment in which to live, until I took a job that moved me to Texas.

I really think that you and I could have a 3-day conversation about this, and that that would be the abbreviated version.

Its so cute to watch a man crush evolve ;)

Soy GOOD, animal product BAD, at least in the proportions found in the Western diet. I left cow's milk behind ages ago, I have soymilk on my cereal now. I cook with tofu, not too often, but sometimes. I don't try to REPLACE meat, I just thave many good recipes that don't REQUIRE meat. Most people are astonished to hear that cow's milk actually ACCELERATES osteoporosis, but it's true, and there's stacks of research papers in JAMA and Lancet and Harvard Medical School publications backing that up, all collected in many books, but the best are John Robbins' great books, IMHO.

There's been a giant experiment going on across most of this planet now for thousands of years regarding the health benefits of soy. The results are in: the majority of the world's population eats it, a LOT, and they are healthier, and live longer, than Americans. They have less cancer (except that there's way too much SMOKING in Asia), far less GI disease and cancers, and little or no osteoporosis. The diseases they DO have now are mostly the result of Western diet and lifestyle influences. Before, they just lopped off one another's heads a lot...

Genghis Khan's hordes carried a bag of rice (or was it barley?) and that's about it. They conquered the known world. Were stopped in Eastern Europe because they'd adopted the soft ways (and poor diet) of their conquered lands.

So many athletes are vegetarians, and eat lots of soy, that the list is quite long, but Lance Armstrong, wins the Tour de France whenever he wants, I can never remember the Ironman triathlete who won so many, and was a vegetarian, those Kenyan dudes who rock the Olympics every year, running barefoot-yep, vegetarians.

Clint Eastwood, for goodness' sake, Paul McCartney, on and on. Whatever that's worth. The BEST endorsement, though, is millions of rapidly-reproducing Asians who live a long time and are way smart. The bottom line is, most of the world, WAY most of the world is vegetarian, and eventually we'll all have to stop eating burnt dead flesh, since it's economically unsustainable. It's just a bad and dangerous habit, like smoking. People resisted that for decades.

You want incentive to change your diet? Spend a day in a slaughterhouse, then watch how sausage is made, if you can...it's so much unnecessary cruelty.

Mark Swaim:  Whitfield Rd as your entrance to Duke Forrest?  Walk till you come to the rock formation with a creek below?

Greetings:   With over a gazillion commercial uses, the Soybean is the most important product of the South, although cotton farmers and others will say otherwise (they don't make as much money on Soybeans because of government interference as agricultural price controllers, because of foreign tariffs, because of subsidies to farmers, and DON'T GET ME STARTED!). In addition to its food value, Soybean Oil also has multiple nonfood uses in such diverse products as caulking compounds, crayons, electrical insulation, hydraulic fluids and paint.

Newpaper ink! Soysilk fabric! Scented candles! Building materials! Furniture! Plastics, solvents, roadbeds, laser printer and copier toner! Oh my!

And to think I voted for blackeyed peas!!

Careful... Asian soy consumption is mainly fermented soy products, and in very small quantities.  Americans are not using soy in the same way at all.  I tried to avoided it on my last trip to the States, but it was everywhere... it's the new filler/biproduct.  The "health benefits" angle is just more clever marketing.

Health concerns aside, my main objection to commercial soybean production is from a human rights angle.  South American small farmers are being been forced to surrender their sustainable family farms to big production interests; and use of pesticides to grow these GMO crops is ruining the health of their families.

Mung beans are nice every now and again. And then there's garbanzo beans . . .

Soy Un Perdedor

Plenty of downed doves have been lost in soybean fields.

Me, I like the sauce. 

Swaim and Neptune,

At the risk of giving the ladies more room to giggle, may I recommend a couple o books? Reynolds Price's THE GOOD PRIEST'S SON

and an odd little one about the Outer Banks called FISHBOX VANITY, by Jennifer FitzSimons

David Payne's (Ruin Creek, Early from the Dance) are nicely evocative, too. 

I go with Black eyed, or its southern cousin, field peas. 

Here's a little bit of twisted logic (can you spot the problem?):  'Large numbers of people eat soy and they invariably die; there MUST be something wrong with soy!'  And here's an experiment: Get online, throw out the quoted comment and see what responses and comment accrue.  It's an interesting exercise in how humans think....

Almost totally (but not quite) off-topic:  I find it fascinating that the prison population of the United States exceeds the farming population of this nation!  Yep... 

Relative to the ongoing vegetarian v. meat eater debate, did you hear about the concerned citizen who first became a vegetarian because of sympathy for slaughtered animals, and then began to feel bad for the vegetables, too?  RIP.

Finally, and since I grew up (sort of) in the country... We used to get a kick out of the deprived kids who were hauled out to our corner of New Jersey to spend some time at a nearby rural summer camp:  They couldn't tell the difference between a horse and a cow. As five and six-year-olds we thought that was a hoot!

What does all of this have to do with the soybean?  Not very much, frankly.  I always liked to eat raw greenbeans myself, picked off the plants I raised myself.  They always seemed tastier raw than cooked.  I never knew any gardiners to grow soybeans in their garden plots or I'm sure I would have nibbled on a soybean plant... (with what results????)

When I worked as a journalist, I was assigned to interview the city's leading health food store owner. He's been in the business his entire life, as his father had started the store back in the 1940's, when corn was still considered a vegetable. Needless to say, until the late 90's when it became the popular thing, his store was very quiet. Smelled like hemp and patchouli, you know what I mean.

So he was very well read, on most subjects. Fascinating man. I asked him specifically about the soy craze (this was 2002). And he said this: Generally, I've found that Americans and health secrets go something like this—they do a study on another part of the world and their diet secrets (eskimos and fat, Chinese and soy. . .), they stick around long enough to make the intitial connection that x + y= z, and then they run home and pour the stuff into a tub and soak in it. They don't take the time to study the minutia of the relevancy.

I get that. He said the thing about soy is that the Chinese have been eating it for thousands of years, yet they ONLY consume it in the fermented form: soy sauce, tempe, tofu, etc.

He said, and I have not researched his findings, that the raw form contains metals that can cause much damage if consumed en masse. He included soy milk in that category. At the time, my mother's entire fridge was some form of raw soy. Peterman, throw out that ice cream.

If anyone else has heard this, tell me. Like I said, I did not research it, as I was not consuming raw soy. I generally take my time jumping on bandwagons.

Remember what happened to poor Atkins. 

Currently, no clinical trials have shown eating specified amounts of soy products over time reduces the risk of cancer.  We do know that consuming soy may actually increase breast cancer risk for some women.  The estrogen-like substances (isoflavones) in soy may stimulate the estrogen receptors of breast cancer cells and make them grow.

All things in moderation is a lot better diet plan than going heavy on the soy (or anything else).

Mark Swaim,

I moved to Chapel Hill in my third year of college, while attempting to make the transfer from University of Michigan to UNC. I too found it magical. Unfortunately, I also learned very quickly that northerners are still not too popular. Had no idea.

One boy said to my roomate, right in front of me, "You're parents let you live with a Yankee?" It was not an isolated incident. Tons of comments like that. I made the mistake of wearing jeans to a Clemson/UNC football game and all the girls I was meeting were in SUNDRESSES AND HEELS. HEELS for bleechers? And the boys were wearing ties!!! 

Don't get me wrong, I totally love the south; I just don't think it loved me. 

For me, Michael Pollan summarizes it best:

Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much.

I think he also said you should be suspicious of anything your grandparents wouldn't recognize as food, like yogurt in a tube, and most of the crap at fast-food restaurants...

I decided long ago not to stress over it, and let my body tell me what it likes. That's worked fairly well. Soy is a small part of my diet, as are animal products.

Olivia, the sad thing about that statement?  That it needed to be said.  "eat food", most of the modern american diet could barely be described as food.  Anyone heard the Animaniacs song about what is in your ice cream?

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU EAT (Episode 23)
Music by Jacques Offenbach (Orpheus Overture). Lyrics by Randy Rogel.

YW+D : We like sweets a lot
But they make your insides rot
So remember it's your body
And the only one you've got.

I'm not a fan of soy. And yes, I'm a militant mean eater. I'm a proud member of P.E.T.A since I don't know when (PETA meaning People Eating Tasty Animals). Soy does have its uses. I believe the Chinese used to use it a fertilizer before getting around to using it in its fermented forms.

MissIve, your interviewee is spot on about how Americans view health secrets. Particularly, "He said the thing about soy is that the Chinese have been eating it for thousands of years, yet they ONLY consume it in the fermented form: soy sauce, tempe, tofu, etc."

To get soy into other forms such as milk, ice cream, and protein requires as much industrial processing as it does to turn corn into its gazillion sub forms. For all the supposed health benefits of soy, the toll it must take on the environment must not be healthy at all. Imagine all the fertilizer and pesticides being used to grow all those beans. Imagine the toll industrial farming techniques has on the environment. Imagine all the fossil fuel that must be consumed in order to turn soy into textured vegetable protein or milk.

Like corn, soy is overly processed, overused, and over valued. I prefer my food to come in natural and whole forms that I can recognize. You can't milk a damn bean, now can you?

Speaking of milking... the best lacto-related movie line EVER:

Farmer: You've never had your hand on a teat.

Cop: Not one THIS BIG.

Name that movie!

Capt. Neptune: It was indeed Whitfield Road.

Jonathan Eells, The movie is Witness (I heart IMDB)

Jonathan Eells,

Was it "The Witness"?

Willie:

I used to run into Reynolds Price in that area. He had a spinal cord tumor that had seriously compromised his health, and was pushed around, all over town, frequently into bookstores (The Regulator was one), in his wheelchair. He incurred mild drama everywhere he went, and not of a positive sort. He could give off a real vibe that you were not allowed to be perusing the same shelf that he was. He had an effete execrated look that reminded me of Captain Christopher Pike in the Star Trek episode "The Menagerie." Price was gay in a way that really affected his worldview; I guess what I mean is that he tended to think the rest of the world was gay also, which put real limits on his depth of understanding of humankind. I've heard it said that bisexuals are always the best novelists. I wouldn't know. 

Jen:  I am sorry that happened to you at UNC. I have to say I can see it happening, not to you specifically, but in general. You seem more a citizen of the world.

Swaim!

"You seem more a citizen of the world" is probably the highest compliment you could have paid me. Really. Thank you.  

Just for that, I may be tempted to return to the south for another beating, just to see this (as described by Capt. Neptune): "Walk till you come to the rock formation with a creek below." Tempting. . .

Agent666,

Thanks for the soy clarifiication. My instinct favored that theory. I generally trust my gut when it comes to matters that affect that very region—and beyond.

Any runner's tips for alternatives to hip replacement at a ridiculously young age? Shooting pains on my morning run today. Refuse to give it up. Have heard to take gelatin.  

Missive, stop running?  I tried that, the pain goes away but the fat comes back, so maybe its not such a good idea.  Hip pain might be any number of problems, have you ever had bursitis?  I have had recurring bursitis in my right hip and it can be almost crippling when it is accute. 

As a massage therapist I say try going to a LMT that specializes in injury/sports therapy and have them work the attachments and deep hip rotators on BOTH sides, as well as your lower back.  As a homeopathic enthusiast I would say seek out someone in your area that practise oriental bodywork modalities such as Gua Sha, Shiatsu, Accupressures & Accupuncture, or Thai Massage. 

Went for a run last night with Molly and I kept wondering who replaced all the cartilage in my joints with gravel and pins.  Could be the cold weater, could be my sedentary lifestyle, could be my age...but I'm blaming the government, it seems like the fashionable thing to do these days.  So my aching joints today are all George Bush's fault, I dont' know how, but it is.

Capt. Neptune,

After you "Walk till you come to the rock formation with a creek below.", do you then turn left if there is a one-eyed barking dog standing by the tree, or turn right if there is a three legged cat sitting on a rock licking it's missing paw?

But seriously, it sounds like a wonderful place to live.

Be very well.

PeterLake:

It's the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings.

All of your inputs, as well as the links provided have been very illuminating. I thank all of you.

I think the general public (which obviously includes me) is very susceptible to the hope of a magical, natural, plentiful and easy to use health product that will counteract a lifetime of poor eating habits. We are prone to take things at face value and take a leap of faith instead of taking the next logical step of digging a little deeper and understanding all of the caveats and risks.

I had been using soy milk (which doesn't come from "moo cows") in my breakfast cereal until I finally made the connection to a significant increase in migraine headaches.

I never could stomach the taste of soy in my daily cappuccinos so I use real "moo cow" milk for that, but nothing else; well, . . . except of coarse, ice cream.

I eat my cereal dry now.

mark swaim,

I think I may have been there before.  I'll run a Mapquest just to be sure.

Swaim,

I have to admit, I was not particularly eager to read The Good Priest's Son, because I had seen just enough of RP's carryings on to understand why he was the darling of a crowd I don't agree with, but TGPS is not that kind of book. It is just a plain old decent book- OK, with a little romanticised racial harmony and a good sense of place, i.e., the not too grown up modern South.

I think somebody pointed out a while ago about how artists' private lives ought not to eclipse their work. (Russel Crowe and Wagner were cited)  Unfortunately, it seems  Mr. Price was verging on letting his private life BECOME his work for a while there, in the mold of Gore Vidal and a whole host of lesser lights, but then he turned out this nice book about a middle aged normal white guy and his aging daddy and the black folks they connected with.

MissIve, I am not sure when you were at Chapel Hill, but I can tell you this: at certain other nearby state universities in the late 70s, the practice of wearing a coat and tie to football games was at least 75% designed to give you a place to hide a flask or a pint bottle ( or two half pints).

They say women need a reason to have sex and men just need a place. I think the reverse is often true when the activity is dressing up. 

Two points spring to mind:

A.  Any study, be it food- or pharmaceutical-related, only applies to the population. Not to you personally.

2.  If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat? (favorite bumper sticker)

YAY! I REMEMBERED THE BUMPER STICKER!! I know you've all been on tenterhooks about that, so here it is: This older distinguished-looking gray-headed gentleman was driving the Biggest Truck in the Known Universe, and the sticker on the back said

I (heart) My Carbon Footprint

Well, I got a giggle, anyway...