Mighty Bean

Moderation.  I like some soy products but I don't live on the stuff.  Anytime you severly limit your diet you are going to get concentrated doses of the good and the bad in any food.  There is no perfect food.

Miso anyone?

I knew I would love soy when I discovered Ritchie Valens, as in "Soy capitan, soy capitan!!!"

But soy is actually a dietary tragedy in this country. FERMENTED soy is magnificent. But run, do not walk, RUN AWAY from the unfermented soy products for sale in the US.

Now, if the topic turns back to fermented soy and other forms of moldy kinds of bean curd, well, I'm all ears - or mouth. I sometimes think I'm turning Japanese, I like soy so much. I think I'm turning Japanese; I really think so.

Strange coincidence, but before today's topic came up I had had a sudden urge to eat extremely hot ma bo tofu tonight. I loaded up on it and got a satisfying flopsweat. I think I subsisted on the stuff when I lived in Taiwan.

Oh no Jonathan, should we ask the doctor, should we have the doctor take a picture?

Ok I'm not going any further with that song.

Jonathan Eells:  Now I can't stop singing La Bamba,

Capt. Neptune:

I am so sorry to be late in replying to the 11 Oct. post. This computer was declining to return to prior dates, but now seems to have stopped doing so. We could be geographic blood brothers. I have a home on the Durham/Orange county line (going north from Chapel Hill on 15-501, one veers rightward at what is once at Hardee's and is now Wendy's) in a neighborhood called Five Oaks (27707 zip code).It's eerily close to Duke Forest, virtually all of which I've tramped. It may sound a little strange, but friends during residency  and I, after very trying days, getting off work at unholy hours(ie, 2-3 am), would often drive out to the Duke Forest entrance just around the corner from Erwin Road, and go walk for 30-45 minutes by flashlight or moonlight just to wind down, breathe the air, and dispense with the remains of the day.

As regards the coastal areas, I know those very well also. If I rewind the tape of my memory as far back as it will go, among the very earliest of life memories is of Wrightsville Beach, and experiencing the splash for the first time of salty water in my nose and mouth. A veterinarian friend for whom I worked a lot in high school has retired very close to where you are (he's become a man of the vine, if you know what I mean, and is quite reclusive; he probably wouldn't want me giving out his name). You are in a wonderful area. I had a thing for driving down to that area at off-season times of the year, such as Thanksgiving.

My house there is occupied now by a friend who fell on hard times and needed a place to which to escape, quickly, from a deteriorating marriage. I will never sell that house, and if I have any choice as to where I daw my last breath, it will be there. That area I feel is where a big part of my spirit resides.

It sounds very cliched, but I really didn't know what I had there, as a great environment in which to live, until I took a job that moved me to Texas.

I really think that you and I could have a 3-day conversation about this, and that that would be the abbreviated version.

Its so cute to watch a man crush evolve ;)

Soy GOOD, animal product BAD, at least in the proportions found in the Western diet. I left cow's milk behind ages ago, I have soymilk on my cereal now. I cook with tofu, not too often, but sometimes. I don't try to REPLACE meat, I just thave many good recipes that don't REQUIRE meat. Most people are astonished to hear that cow's milk actually ACCELERATES osteoporosis, but it's true, and there's stacks of research papers in JAMA and Lancet and Harvard Medical School publications backing that up, all collected in many books, but the best are John Robbins' great books, IMHO.

There's been a giant experiment going on across most of this planet now for thousands of years regarding the health benefits of soy. The results are in: the majority of the world's population eats it, a LOT, and they are healthier, and live longer, than Americans. They have less cancer (except that there's way too much SMOKING in Asia), far less GI disease and cancers, and little or no osteoporosis. The diseases they DO have now are mostly the result of Western diet and lifestyle influences. Before, they just lopped off one another's heads a lot...

Genghis Khan's hordes carried a bag of rice (or was it barley?) and that's about it. They conquered the known world. Were stopped in Eastern Europe because they'd adopted the soft ways (and poor diet) of their conquered lands.

So many athletes are vegetarians, and eat lots of soy, that the list is quite long, but Lance Armstrong, wins the Tour de France whenever he wants, I can never remember the Ironman triathlete who won so many, and was a vegetarian, those Kenyan dudes who rock the Olympics every year, running barefoot-yep, vegetarians.

Clint Eastwood, for goodness' sake, Paul McCartney, on and on. Whatever that's worth. The BEST endorsement, though, is millions of rapidly-reproducing Asians who live a long time and are way smart. The bottom line is, most of the world, WAY most of the world is vegetarian, and eventually we'll all have to stop eating burnt dead flesh, since it's economically unsustainable. It's just a bad and dangerous habit, like smoking. People resisted that for decades.

You want incentive to change your diet? Spend a day in a slaughterhouse, then watch how sausage is made, if you can...it's so much unnecessary cruelty.

Mark Swaim:  Whitfield Rd as your entrance to Duke Forrest?  Walk till you come to the rock formation with a creek below?

Greetings:   With over a gazillion commercial uses, the Soybean is the most important product of the South, although cotton farmers and others will say otherwise (they don't make as much money on Soybeans because of government interference as agricultural price controllers, because of foreign tariffs, because of subsidies to farmers, and DON'T GET ME STARTED!). In addition to its food value, Soybean Oil also has multiple nonfood uses in such diverse products as caulking compounds, crayons, electrical insulation, hydraulic fluids and paint.

Newpaper ink! Soysilk fabric! Scented candles! Building materials! Furniture! Plastics, solvents, roadbeds, laser printer and copier toner! Oh my!

And to think I voted for blackeyed peas!!

Careful... Asian soy consumption is mainly fermented soy products, and in very small quantities.  Americans are not using soy in the same way at all.  I tried to avoided it on my last trip to the States, but it was everywhere... it's the new filler/biproduct.  The "health benefits" angle is just more clever marketing.

Health concerns aside, my main objection to commercial soybean production is from a human rights angle.  South American small farmers are being been forced to surrender their sustainable family farms to big production interests; and use of pesticides to grow these GMO crops is ruining the health of their families.

Mung beans are nice every now and again. And then there's garbanzo beans . . .

Soy Un Perdedor

Plenty of downed doves have been lost in soybean fields.

Me, I like the sauce. 

Swaim and Neptune,

At the risk of giving the ladies more room to giggle, may I recommend a couple o books? Reynolds Price's THE GOOD PRIEST'S SON

and an odd little one about the Outer Banks called FISHBOX VANITY, by Jennifer FitzSimons

David Payne's (Ruin Creek, Early from the Dance) are nicely evocative, too. 

I go with Black eyed, or its southern cousin, field peas. 

Here's a little bit of twisted logic (can you spot the problem?):  'Large numbers of people eat soy and they invariably die; there MUST be something wrong with soy!'  And here's an experiment: Get online, throw out the quoted comment and see what responses and comment accrue.  It's an interesting exercise in how humans think....

Almost totally (but not quite) off-topic:  I find it fascinating that the prison population of the United States exceeds the farming population of this nation!  Yep... 

Relative to the ongoing vegetarian v. meat eater debate, did you hear about the concerned citizen who first became a vegetarian because of sympathy for slaughtered animals, and then began to feel bad for the vegetables, too?  RIP.

Finally, and since I grew up (sort of) in the country... We used to get a kick out of the deprived kids who were hauled out to our corner of New Jersey to spend some time at a nearby rural summer camp:  They couldn't tell the difference between a horse and a cow. As five and six-year-olds we thought that was a hoot!

What does all of this have to do with the soybean?  Not very much, frankly.  I always liked to eat raw greenbeans myself, picked off the plants I raised myself.  They always seemed tastier raw than cooked.  I never knew any gardiners to grow soybeans in their garden plots or I'm sure I would have nibbled on a soybean plant... (with what results????)

When I worked as a journalist, I was assigned to interview the city's leading health food store owner. He's been in the business his entire life, as his father had started the store back in the 1940's, when corn was still considered a vegetable. Needless to say, until the late 90's when it became the popular thing, his store was very quiet. Smelled like hemp and patchouli, you know what I mean.

So he was very well read, on most subjects. Fascinating man. I asked him specifically about the soy craze (this was 2002). And he said this: Generally, I've found that Americans and health secrets go something like this—they do a study on another part of the world and their diet secrets (eskimos and fat, Chinese and soy. . .), they stick around long enough to make the intitial connection that x + y= z, and then they run home and pour the stuff into a tub and soak in it. They don't take the time to study the minutia of the relevancy.

I get that. He said the thing about soy is that the Chinese have been eating it for thousands of years, yet they ONLY consume it in the fermented form: soy sauce, tempe, tofu, etc.

He said, and I have not researched his findings, that the raw form contains metals that can cause much damage if consumed en masse. He included soy milk in that category. At the time, my mother's entire fridge was some form of raw soy. Peterman, throw out that ice cream.

If anyone else has heard this, tell me. Like I said, I did not research it, as I was not consuming raw soy. I generally take my time jumping on bandwagons.

Remember what happened to poor Atkins. 

Currently, no clinical trials have shown eating specified amounts of soy products over time reduces the risk of cancer.  We do know that consuming soy may actually increase breast cancer risk for some women.  The estrogen-like substances (isoflavones) in soy may stimulate the estrogen receptors of breast cancer cells and make them grow.

All things in moderation is a lot better diet plan than going heavy on the soy (or anything else).

Mark Swaim,

I moved to Chapel Hill in my third year of college, while attempting to make the transfer from University of Michigan to UNC. I too found it magical. Unfortunately, I also learned very quickly that northerners are still not too popular. Had no idea.

One boy said to my roomate, right in front of me, "You're parents let you live with a Yankee?" It was not an isolated incident. Tons of comments like that. I made the mistake of wearing jeans to a Clemson/UNC football game and all the girls I was meeting were in SUNDRESSES AND HEELS. HEELS for bleechers? And the boys were wearing ties!!! 

Don't get me wrong, I totally love the south; I just don't think it loved me. 

For me, Michael Pollan summarizes it best:

Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much.

I think he also said you should be suspicious of anything your grandparents wouldn't recognize as food, like yogurt in a tube, and most of the crap at fast-food restaurants...

I decided long ago not to stress over it, and let my body tell me what it likes. That's worked fairly well. Soy is a small part of my diet, as are animal products.

Olivia, the sad thing about that statement?  That it needed to be said.  "eat food", most of the modern american diet could barely be described as food.  Anyone heard the Animaniacs song about what is in your ice cream?

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU EAT (Episode 23)
Music by Jacques Offenbach (Orpheus Overture). Lyrics by Randy Rogel.

YW+D : We like sweets a lot
But they make your insides rot
So remember it's your body
And the only one you've got.

I'm not a fan of soy. And yes, I'm a militant mean eater. I'm a proud member of P.E.T.A since I don't know when (PETA meaning People Eating Tasty Animals). Soy does have its uses. I believe the Chinese used to use it a fertilizer before getting around to using it in its fermented forms.

MissIve, your interviewee is spot on about how Americans view health secrets. Particularly, "He said the thing about soy is that the Chinese have been eating it for thousands of years, yet they ONLY consume it in the fermented form: soy sauce, tempe, tofu, etc."

To get soy into other forms such as milk, ice cream, and protein requires as much industrial processing as it does to turn corn into its gazillion sub forms. For all the supposed health benefits of soy, the toll it must take on the environment must not be healthy at all. Imagine all the fertilizer and pesticides being used to grow all those beans. Imagine the toll industrial farming techniques has on the environment. Imagine all the fossil fuel that must be consumed in order to turn soy into textured vegetable protein or milk.

Like corn, soy is overly processed, overused, and over valued. I prefer my food to come in natural and whole forms that I can recognize. You can't milk a damn bean, now can you?

Speaking of milking... the best lacto-related movie line EVER:

Farmer: You've never had your hand on a teat.

Cop: Not one THIS BIG.

Name that movie!

Capt. Neptune: It was indeed Whitfield Road.

Jonathan Eells, The movie is Witness (I heart IMDB)

Jonathan Eells,

Was it "The Witness"?

Willie:

I used to run into Reynolds Price in that area. He had a spinal cord tumor that had seriously compromised his health, and was pushed around, all over town, frequently into bookstores (The Regulator was one), in his wheelchair. He incurred mild drama everywhere he went, and not of a positive sort. He could give off a real vibe that you were not allowed to be perusing the same shelf that he was. He had an effete execrated look that reminded me of Captain Christopher Pike in the Star Trek episode "The Menagerie." Price was gay in a way that really affected his worldview; I guess what I mean is that he tended to think the rest of the world was gay also, which put real limits on his depth of understanding of humankind. I've heard it said that bisexuals are always the best novelists. I wouldn't know. 

Jen:  I am sorry that happened to you at UNC. I have to say I can see it happening, not to you specifically, but in general. You seem more a citizen of the world.

Swaim!

"You seem more a citizen of the world" is probably the highest compliment you could have paid me. Really. Thank you.  

Just for that, I may be tempted to return to the south for another beating, just to see this (as described by Capt. Neptune): "Walk till you come to the rock formation with a creek below." Tempting. . .

Agent666,

Thanks for the soy clarifiication. My instinct favored that theory. I generally trust my gut when it comes to matters that affect that very region—and beyond.

Any runner's tips for alternatives to hip replacement at a ridiculously young age? Shooting pains on my morning run today. Refuse to give it up. Have heard to take gelatin.  

Missive, stop running?  I tried that, the pain goes away but the fat comes back, so maybe its not such a good idea.  Hip pain might be any number of problems, have you ever had bursitis?  I have had recurring bursitis in my right hip and it can be almost crippling when it is accute. 

As a massage therapist I say try going to a LMT that specializes in injury/sports therapy and have them work the attachments and deep hip rotators on BOTH sides, as well as your lower back.  As a homeopathic enthusiast I would say seek out someone in your area that practise oriental bodywork modalities such as Gua Sha, Shiatsu, Accupressures & Accupuncture, or Thai Massage. 

Went for a run last night with Molly and I kept wondering who replaced all the cartilage in my joints with gravel and pins.  Could be the cold weater, could be my sedentary lifestyle, could be my age...but I'm blaming the government, it seems like the fashionable thing to do these days.  So my aching joints today are all George Bush's fault, I dont' know how, but it is.

Capt. Neptune,

After you "Walk till you come to the rock formation with a creek below.", do you then turn left if there is a one-eyed barking dog standing by the tree, or turn right if there is a three legged cat sitting on a rock licking it's missing paw?

But seriously, it sounds like a wonderful place to live.

Be very well.

PeterLake:

It's the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings.

All of your inputs, as well as the links provided have been very illuminating. I thank all of you.

I think the general public (which obviously includes me) is very susceptible to the hope of a magical, natural, plentiful and easy to use health product that will counteract a lifetime of poor eating habits. We are prone to take things at face value and take a leap of faith instead of taking the next logical step of digging a little deeper and understanding all of the caveats and risks.

I had been using soy milk (which doesn't come from "moo cows") in my breakfast cereal until I finally made the connection to a significant increase in migraine headaches.

I never could stomach the taste of soy in my daily cappuccinos so I use real "moo cow" milk for that, but nothing else; well, . . . except of coarse, ice cream.

I eat my cereal dry now.

mark swaim,

I think I may have been there before.  I'll run a Mapquest just to be sure.

Swaim,

I have to admit, I was not particularly eager to read The Good Priest's Son, because I had seen just enough of RP's carryings on to understand why he was the darling of a crowd I don't agree with, but TGPS is not that kind of book. It is just a plain old decent book- OK, with a little romanticised racial harmony and a good sense of place, i.e., the not too grown up modern South.

I think somebody pointed out a while ago about how artists' private lives ought not to eclipse their work. (Russel Crowe and Wagner were cited)  Unfortunately, it seems  Mr. Price was verging on letting his private life BECOME his work for a while there, in the mold of Gore Vidal and a whole host of lesser lights, but then he turned out this nice book about a middle aged normal white guy and his aging daddy and the black folks they connected with.

MissIve, I am not sure when you were at Chapel Hill, but I can tell you this: at certain other nearby state universities in the late 70s, the practice of wearing a coat and tie to football games was at least 75% designed to give you a place to hide a flask or a pint bottle ( or two half pints).

They say women need a reason to have sex and men just need a place. I think the reverse is often true when the activity is dressing up. 

Two points spring to mind:

A.  Any study, be it food- or pharmaceutical-related, only applies to the population. Not to you personally.

2.  If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat? (favorite bumper sticker)

YAY! I REMEMBERED THE BUMPER STICKER!! I know you've all been on tenterhooks about that, so here it is: This older distinguished-looking gray-headed gentleman was driving the Biggest Truck in the Known Universe, and the sticker on the back said

I (heart) My Carbon Footprint

Well, I got a giggle, anyway...

Shandonista-YOU'RE made of meat too! Scary, huh?

Nachista-what you said, everything. And, girls, there IS evidence that a diet high in dairy and animal products in general causes deterioration of connective tissue and contributes to joint problems. Not to mention CORONARY ARTERY DISEASE-YIKES! So, clean it up and see if that doesn't help...WALKING IS GOOD, I used to run, but I just walk longer now, it's much easier on the old bod, and burns just as many calories of (EEEK! EWWWW!) fat.

Missive-I can't speak for NC, but here in Arkansas, I'd be shocked if you received such a boorish welcome. We still try to emphasize manners and Southern decorum, even charm if possible, but there ARE still troglodytes about, as there are anywhere. I have NEVER seen anyone around HERE dress up for a ball game. It's highly likely you're going to get barbecue or beer on yourself, so casual is a MUST!

Peter-I know people who eat cereal with WATER, but I can't. A little soymilk there, a little moo in my Norleans roast, and I'm good to go. I like it when it gets cooler, for then I go with oatmeal and green tea, and forgo all the milky stuff entirely. But, but, OMG my two weaknesses, ICE CREAM and WHITE CHEESE DIP, AUUUUGH!! DAIRY!!. What's a girl to do? Practice moderation? Oh, ok...

Hey Olivia,

Rice milk is my favorite. Nutmilks are all right too (almond etc).

 So what's kieffer? Am I even spelling that right? The yogurty stuff. I love that. Raspberry. Yum.

Trask! So funny because the boys all had flasks in their jackets and one girl had it strapped it her leg under her sundress. THAT did impress. Love the south.

Nachista, problem solved. Have just gotten up to walk to Pitt's office and now the shooting pain has spread to hamstring and back of knee. Obviously not a bone issue. May need the massage therapy, though! I always run through the pulled muscles and they usually go away. Queen of denial.

mark swaim - we have those springs around here in the west - and chunks of the mountains fall from time to time - great for stirring your coffee (if you like that flavor)  

and how about those bulldogs...

Olivia,  After decades of being a vegetarian, ERP cancer came along and now I can no longer cavort with those nasty phytoestrogens in soy products.  I'm back to getting protein from animal flesh and raw milk.   (All the non-milks taste way too sweet to me.)  That all makes my yoga friends gag and sneer but, I'm happy to be on this side of the dirt.

As for moderation, it sometimes looks more like a controlled than a centered life.  I suggest we should all jump in the deep end occasionally.

Nachista,  I love the Animaniacs.  Polka Dot?      Ice cream isn't the only "food" that's been so adulterated that only the name remains.  Luckily, in that arena, we've got lots of artisans making fabulous stuff without the help of polysyllabic ingredients found nowhere in nature. 

MissIve, hip issues often have referred pain in the back and knee areas as well.  Try R.I.C.E. for a couple days and if it doesn't clear up go see an LMT you trust.

Totally random...

Just checking a divorce decree to see how the judge has ordered the property distributed and check for liens and child support.  I was reading the division of property and found the following:

"The Petitioner and Respondent shall hereby divide equally the following personal assets...15 cows, etc."

Sucks to be #15.

Heiress-You are SO right! Actually, hemp milk is my current favorite. I's expensive, but I love that creamy taste. I use some Westsoy milk, because the ingredient list is as follows: orbanic sybeans, water. That's it. BUT, I know I should move on to rice or almond or hemp. They're really good too.

Missy, kefir is another fermented milk beverage, but it's supposed to be better for one, expecially women, than yogurt. Different bacteria, better for the colon, and good yeasts that combat the bad yeasts that give women so many problems. Also easier to digest.

Tajar, a vegetarian diet is generally considered to be better for the immune system vis-a-vis anticancer therapies. Animal products PROMOTE cancers, especially of the digestive system. No soy, though.

Peter, I make a killer chocolate shake. The spell requires frozen bananas, Godiva powdered chocolate, peanut butter, honey, and soy milk (rice now, thanks to Heiress' timely reminder, but it will be just as good). You will worship my Osterizer, baby. Or, maybe I sould say I'm the Hamilton Bitch of shakes, oh yes. The KitchenMaid. But NOT the FrigidMaire, oh no.

Cow 15 is in BIG trouble...

Oh, in case y'all didn't get the memo, today is TYPO DAY, so you can screw up all you want, and you have to leave them in...

Just follow my lead-I'm way out front! grrr...

Pour spillers of the whirled UNTIE!

It's ok olivia, we luff you anyway.

awwww....

Thanks! Love you too, baby girl.

All things in moderation....I eat mostly a Meditterrean diet....it's healthy and done right there's little to no red meats. Lots of fish. And lots of wine for those who drink. I like Chinese and Mexican food as long as it's heavy on veggies and healthy.

So, I'm goin' out with ExPat! lol

Ok, Soy Peanut Butter is on my no-go list.  I'll risk death with real peanut butter, it tastes better and has a much better consistency.

Trask:  I'll give the RP book you mention a try. I am about to order a few from amazon.com. I do think it's good not to formulate an opinion about an artist's ouevre based on the author's private life or public shortcomings. At the time I was there, Price was having a boundary-violating relationship with a male English graduate student, who was apparently live-in. Despite how he creeped me out in the Regulator, I did buy and read Kate Vaiden.I think soon afterward, Stanley Fish, the deconstructionist, became chairman of English at Duke, and behaved like The New Sheriff in Town.

But, wait, isn't having a Cow 15 in hand worth two in the bush? Wouldn't that help even things up a little? ***casting about for wordlpay on this....eyesters you aid is needed!****

Nachista, Real peanut butter is WAY better for you than soy butter. Way WAY better! Try to get the organic stuff, though, without all the hydrogenated oils and sugar. Yuck, that stuff IS deadly. And it's more expensive, but you're worth it honey. And you have to stir it. Once. Then keep it in the fridge, it'll stay stirred. You knew that. Go for it.

I've never understood the whole justification for avoiding organic food because it's a little more expensive. Why would you want to put the cheapest, crappiest food into the ONLY body you're issued? Bottom line, you save tons of money on doctor visits, digestive system disorders, antibiotics, hospital stays, by spending a little extra on preventive maintenance, aka good food and a little exercise.

Olivia,

Thank you. Good to know. Kefir: good stuff.

Nachista,

Your #15 Cow post reminded me of Paul Harvey's "Rest of the Story." Also good stuff.

MissIve,

Kefir GOOD! he says as he climbs the banana tree . . . .  especially with a vanilla bean ice cream side car.  

Just catching up. I had to go out in the country and pick up a couple of rattlers for Sunday AM. Water moccasins are too inclined to sulk.

Good night all. 

Yes, I loved Witness! Kelly McGillis. Ahhhh. And death by granary. Nature red in tooth and claw. And interestingly enough, I dare say that as the future unfolds there will be a great deal MORE interest in the Amish - and not just for antiquarian reasons. More like, "How do you all grow food, again?"

There are two access points (park on the road and walk) in which to venture deep into Duke Forest off the mentioned Rd.  The one closest to Erwin Rd is called "witchdance"  and the other is called "the ford".  The "ford" is a low place on the river where wagons could cross in shallow water with little current.  "Witchdance" is with the rock formations.  As a child, we would ride our horses to the rocks and crawl down to the water below.  My grandfather would tell us the story of how, on the night of the full moon, witches would come to this place and meet.  At the close of the gathering, the witches would dance upon the rocks.  It is truly a magical place nestled deep in Duke forest.  I vividly remember sitting there with my dad and his brothers listing to these tales as our horses drank from the stream.  That was 40 some years ago and that area was much different than now.  Someone decided that I40 should be placed nearby and everything changed.  My familys (4 generations) farm was right where I40 crossed under Erwin Rd. all the way to Duke forrest.  I now had nowhere to call home, and jumped on a boat.  Yes, it was indeed a magical place and I am sorry that I will never be able to show my two boys the North Carolina that existed when I was a boy.  It doesn't exist but in my memory and in my soul. 

Now back to beans....I traded the family cow to a man who gave me some magic beans that I planted in the forest.......

I've never heard the witch stories but I can easily see why that spot would be so named.

Neptune, I am pretty sure that I mountain-biked on your farm on several occasions a long time ago. I was in the area well before I-40 came through, and would ride frequently from the witch dance area out to a extreme of the forest were there was fence and the forest came to an end. There was pasture on the other side of the fence, which as I recall was barbed wire; it was fairly easy negotiate the fence and just lift the bike over. It certainly felt like a big contiguous farm, and those who were riding (we never did any harm to the terrain) would emerge finally on a paved  road whose name I cannot remember. I was definitely not a carrier pigeon in a past life, and would be at a loss to draw a map. I just have an interesting feeling that that was your place because it was a really a substantive farm; as I remember it was like being among all the dense pine trees, and, boom, cross a fence, major change of scenery. and it looked like you were biking in the English countryside.

Yep, sounds like the place.  900 plus acres backing up to Duke Forest.  Not my farm, my dads and his dads and his dad and.....  Now just a bunch of neighborhoods with familier (family) street names.   Again, not all progress is forward.  But now I live here with the largest front yard in the world-The Atlantic Ocean.  I am very thankful.

Mark Swaim, you can take the girl outta dancing but you can't take all of the dancer out of the girl!  As a dancer we are TRAINED to talk in innuendo, as it stays with the focus the MEN are already ON, who enter these establishments, in an entertaining way.  Maybe it's the FULL MOON, but I FELT VERY DANCER-LIKE today, hence, in reference to your "help from eyesters" plea in continuing on nachista'a V-E-R-Y FUNNY # 15 COW humor. . . . I would NEVER WANT two COWS in the bush, but one BIG BULL might be nice. . . . Trouble is, I USUALLY just get "alot of 'bull' in general! : )

Picking up the thread on NC. . . . I am originally "born and bred" a VERY Southern 'lady', but tried moving back there August or September 2006, and RAN BACK to Omaha as soon as I could GET back, in September 2007, as I can't AFFORD to live in, like, New York again.  It seemed very 'seedy' and societally CORRUPTED in a way that SHOCKED me, yet all that still seemed very FAMILIAR, so maybe I just couldn't NAME it when a child there. . . . People looked at me like I was CRAZY if I asked them what good BOOKS they were READING, and when I tried to initiate conversations, similar to this very Forum,  to share personal thoughts and observations, I was NEVER able to get EVEN ONE going there.  Yet, that SYRUPY, exaggeratedly polite, superficial exchange that was 'a whole lotta NOTHIN' was too IRRITATING to my blood sugar level, as WAS the SWEET TEA in all the restaurants.  I LOVE THE BEACH, but I could only VACATION in (beautifully scenic) North Carolina NOW; for me I could NEVER LIVE THERE ever again. Actually, despite being a Southerner, I felt MOST at home in New York.  The quick mentality (engaged, vibrant, and alert) and rapid physical movements fit my own natural rhythms VERY WELL. I think, speak, and move very quickly, just naturally, unless I discipline myself to do otherwise. I do speak, still, with a light Southern tinge to my talk, but if you have ever heard real deep Southern DRAWLS mine is (thankfully!) nothing like that.  If I greeted you, I might say, "Hi! How's your day?"  In the South I would get this, "HEY! Shoo GAH!" and it was like nails on a blackboard to my personal sensibilities, however simultaneously charming in an antebellum kind of way.  I HAD completely eradicated any trace of my original Southern accent, heavier initially than now.  After the year BACK there, I returned here with enough that people still comment on it, making me realize that I REALLY SHOULD do my concentrated speech correction to sound Midwestern once again.  It takes ALOT of deliberate thinking to DO that, until it becomes second-nature again, tho, and I haven't enough energies LEFT OVER after I deal with EVERYTHING else, just now, to take that on as a (desired but for now delayed) self-improvement project. I WILL say, though, that I HAVE used my Southern accent with all it's supposed 'charm',on carefully chosen occasions, as a FLIRTING tool, here, though, as it makes me stand out as unique from the corn bred and corn fed Husker girls!  All is fair in 'love' and 'war', and when I WANT to I can do the WHOLE Scarlett O'Hara routine, full flasy-eyed and flouncing on top of the "Oh! Rhett! It TROO ly, TROO ly iz dah lite fal!" I'm SURE the South DOES RETAIN its TRUE CHARMS, but for ME, although I haven't lived in all sections of the lower 48 (none of the Northwest), I most felt 'natural' in lovely, wooded upstate New York, somewhere along the Hudson,  but in commuter train distance to the City for theater, shopping, culture.  I lived there PRE 9/11; I am not at all sure how I would feel if I were able to return to live there now.  I DO admire and adore the intelligence and energy of that city and all its various areas of EXPERTISE.

Candle_Light:

I have the same feeling around New Yorkers---energized, appreciative of their directness. Sometimes it's frustratingly difficult to get southerners to be forthcoming. Southerners speka using the backs of their mouths,midwesterners the middle. The British family of accents seem to be spoken using mostly the front of the mouth. I fear the syrup that seems to be served up by way of phraseology and talking without communicating among some southerners is just a kind of social squid ink.

Southern sweetened orange pekoe tea is deadly, even to someone without diabetes. The stuff is 4 molar sucrose. You have to heat the water to a boil to dissolve all the sugar. It makes everybody release way too much insulin, and brings about its own rebound hunger. If I didn't brush immediately after drinking that stuff, I'd have hairy teeth a few hours later.

In the south you can have an office lunch where everybody brings dish. You ask about: what do you bring? "Squash." "Asparagus" "Potatoes." &c. But they peel back the foil top of their Corningware dishes only to reveal a meal that is ALL CASSEROLES, which makes me run for cover. God save us from casseroles.

How did your job application go?

Mark-The circumspect speech in the South has cultural connotations that go far back in time, and are related to the way language is employed by the colonized the world over. The Irish do it, Palestinians, African-Americans, any culture that has been conquered and enslaved and brutalized will develop roundabout means of communicating by saying as little as possible until the context and mood of the interlocutor is ascertained. It's a defensive mechanism, and the South was colonized originally and primarily by Irish and Scots (and later, their slaves) who had been subjected to British rule of the harshest sort for centuries.

You can get unsweetened tea in the South-just ask for it.

Ms. Olivia:   Thanks ma'am.