Missive's point about men aging better than women is a fair one if, and only if, it is applied to the traditional standards of beauty/handsomeness.  Personal taste will naturally make any such point grossly over-generalized.

By and large, I tend to agree with her in the sense that there are more Paul Newmans and Robert Redfords in the world than there are men that have "aged out of their looks".  On the other hand, I think Angela Lansbury and Diana Rigg were both more beautiful in their 60's than they were in their 20's.  And Lauren Bacall is a stunner today.

I don't remember who said it but I read this quote on a calendar once:  "A beautiful young lady is an accident of nature.  A beautiful old lady is a work of art."

Tiberius I hope you DO stay with us! You are obviously a man of impeccable taste and discernment (cf your comments about women and aging). Like all of the gentlemen found on this site, one who lives, thinks, reads, and speaks in a most interesting fashion. I love your sartorial sense. I myself have been known to generate some gratifying responses when I go out in my 1940s style suits, pillbox hats with little veils, and gloves. Someone wiser than I said we should live our lives as examples of how we wish the world might be, and I miss clothes that FIT and bestow an air of gentility not to mention mystery to my presentation.

My all time favourite dress from the Owner's Manual was that gorgeous dark velvet (or was it fine corduroy? *choke, sob*) gown, leg o' mutton sleeves that came to points on the back of my hand...all I needed were gallants duelling for my favor as I watch, bemused, from the wrought iron balcony...alas it is no more, I am desolee, but the memory, so sweet. Only would I don that fair raiment, and I instantly became a senorita transported to a more romantic time...

DPR - Well said! I hope someday to become as eloquent as you and the other nice folks here. My father always said to surround yourself with the people you want to become so we'll see. I wish I had started listening to him at a much earlier age but that's how it goes for some of us.

Fortunately, I am frequently mistaken for Robert Redford. LOL!

Olivia - "Does this taste funny?" LOL ! Thanks for the belly laugh! I needed that.

On today's topic:  I'm not concerned about another person's race, religion, ethnic origin, or sexual orientation.  It's irrelevant. I'm more concerned about a person's behavior. One can be civilized or not.  To be hospitable, gracious and respectful is an acceptable way to deal with others.

I grew up in a small town, my great-grandfather purposely bought his house right on the line between worlds, what might euphemistically called the wrong side of the tracks, and I grew up visiting there and playing with kids of all shades. I didn't think anything of it, but then, children aren't born with hate-they have to be taught it. My family always lived the belief that you dealt with people (I don't like to say 'judged') based on BEHAVIOR not minor physical characteristics such as skin tone. Still, my educational institution wasn't integrated until I was in high school, and I remember feeling real pain at the jokes that were told. I felt that that casual, thoughtless bigotry was beneath us all, but it was so ingrained most of them didn't even notice it. Hate is a disease, education and travel and life experience should, one hopes, be the cure, but not always. Now I see biracial couples whenever I go out, and I look forward to the day when someone other than rich old white men control the world-they sure made a mess of it!

I gave up watching baseball several years ago when I witnessed two major league teams fist-fighting in the infield. Perhaps this is just the way it is in baseball, no crying and all, but to me it was a poor example for our young folks, and a display of a total lack of sportsmanship, respect, and responsibility towards the game. And these guys get paid how much? I'll stick to Turner Classic where I can watch stories of honest working people as told by rich hollywood stars.

Twenty-two years in the Navy caused a gender and color-blindness in me the general populace will never know. I didn't realize the extent of it until I had to formally reprimand a subordinate one day. This sailor accused me of having some sort of grudge against black people. It was only then, at that moment, that I realized he was black, but only because he mentioned it. Prior to this incident, I had only seen him as a team member. It was a realization that, after pondering it, caused me great satisfaction.

A requirement of two years minimum to be served in the military by every man, woman, and yes, even the qualified handicapped, would, in my humble opinion, do much to erase the racism we see today.

Well, our Internet connectivity is struggling tonight - I had composed a wonderful bit and now must reprise the whole thing!  And it was on topic as well!

My comments were about my marriage, for the past 30 years, to a Black man - and sadly, despite all of my care and all of modern medicine, he succumbed to cancer 2 1/2 years ago.  But when he was here, he taught me and my daughters (from a prior marriage) so many valuable lessons, with such wit and wisdom that we continue to quote him every day and we miss him every minute.  His love for us was entirely unconditional -

He was a remarkable golfer, although there was only one course where he could play when he first learned the game - but that didn't stop him.  He grew up in the '20s and '30s when many businesses had those "we reserve the right..." signs, but he knew where his money was welcome.   One of his favorite memories was when his 7th grade softball team won the city championship and he was the only Black kid on the team.  They went to a big local amusement park and rode every ride but when it was time to swim, the team found that he wasn't allowed in the pool - so the members talked it over and decided that if David couldn't go in the pool, nobody else would either.  They had ice cream and went home and who knows what they thought later - but I like to think that it proves that prejudice has to be carefully taught, and these kids had learned something valuable - that their team relationships were much more important than whether the color of his skin would have washed off in that old pool.

 I truly feel sorry for those who have carefully learned the tactics and attitudes of racism.  Life is much too short and there are too many books to read, too many songs to sing, and too much to be seen and heard to deny ourselves the adventures of knowing other people because they might look a little different.

belleball, 

You're so right.  People who live with racial prejudice are just short-changing themselves.  Life would be pretty boring if everyone were the same.   

When folks congratulate themselves on 'how far we have come' regards race relations I have a mixed reaction.  When I hear the same comments about Muslims that I heard about blacks 'way back when' I really wonder.  Stereotypes in the movies have moved on from Stepinfecthit and Amos and Andy (ah, we shall never chuckle again at 'The Kingfisher' and Pearl) to the Arab terrorist stereotype of today.  Do humans really change very much over the eons?  Notice that eveyone (well, almost everyone) has forgotten 'the handshake of the century'; that's good.  Forgetting is sometimes the best thing that can happen to our minds (and on a somber note, death removes those unable to forget and they are forgotten, too).  Also, 'the handshake' was indeed a 'small gesture'.  Small gestures usually are more important than grand gestures.  Think about it, especially in personal affairs:  a hand placed on one's shoulders in a moment of grief is more comforting than an hour-long eulogy; a child's smile brings more joy than a report card loaded with A's; and a simple yes or no to a question is remembered better than a discursive hour-long lecture (politicians take note!).  I wish I could believe that 'we have evolved' beyond race hatred, but I we shall see.... the battle to see past the general to the particular is an ever-ending one.  Like most wars, there are truces and ceasefires, but the struggle to see past 'what everyone knows' to little facts and tiny truths involves us in continual struggle -- against our own instincts.

Belleball,

Such a lovely tribute and generous of you to share with us all. So moving. And I am so very sorry for your loss.

I agree so wholeheartedly that racism has to be 'carefully taught.' And it's never obvious, which is the most dangerous part.

ALL, a call for a VOTE:

So I'm going to be brave, too, and admit that I was carefully taught. I grew up in a very white and affluent suburb of Flint, MI in the 80's. Do you all know this town? It usually ranks number 1 or 2 for most dangerous city in the country. It is also a failed auto town and its demographic is highly black. All these things are true. It is very dangerous. And it has a high black demographic. And the two issues are separate, but often conflated. Put any demographic in the heart of a failed city and see if they don't come out swinging. I dare you. I'm Scotch Irish—ever see Gangs of New York?

And the racism goes on and on. It begins with the (educated) parents of young children in surrounding towns. And they don't do it with hate, they do it, ironically, for the love of their children. They are afraid for them and they have attached 'an image' to the source of that fear in their own minds and they pass it along, like a flash card, to their children. And they say horribly duplicitous things to themselves and to their children to justify why they are 'not racist,' just 'cautious.' Does anyone get this? Was anyone else taught these things, 'carefully?'

I have something I would love to talk to you all about and would love to hear what you think. It's something I wrote on often while studying American lit in school for far too many years. I had horrible white guilt because of the way I was raised. So I read racial discourse—how people 'talked' about race in the 19th Century. I studied the subtler forms of racism, far more insidious than the blatant, in my humble opinion. It bolsters me to remember that Frederick Douglass agreed.

Okay, so this is what I would love to hear you all weigh in on—two schools of thought.

First, the picture above. One school says it's a celebration of new beginnings. And it is lovely and iconic and goose bumpy. I get all that. And I feel the goose bumps.

But here's the second school. What is it SAYING that we took that shot and that we still celebrate it? All the quotes from the white players and managers in that post keep SAYING, Who cares about skin color? We wanted to win. That's it. We're all in this dugout together, etc.

Tiberius, you said this, too, in the context of war. When you are fighting shoulder to shoulder for a common goal, the rest falls away. Maybe we would be better people if we had more common goals. I digress.

But what are we SAYING when, though our words claim that skin color is of NO concern, we are not displaying a picture of a pennant to commemorate Robinson, or of his bat, or of his favorite breakfast cereal, or the other usual things we DISPLAY and SAY when the player is white.

Aren't we, in a very subtle way, reinforcing the 'difference.' And aren't we patting ourselves, or at least one white man, on the back for ignoring the 'difference?' In other words, DIFFERENCE, regardless of how it is being 'handled' in the shot, is the THEME.

Hence my obsession with the double bind of spectacle. I mentioned in the jail house art piece, as well. We hold things up. We ogle them. In this picture, we want to yell to the world, This is how things should be. There should be no difference. And then, right there, we SAY 'difference,' and around and around.

So my question is this, ever the theoretical skeptic, is the second school valid or just pseudo mumbling that should be ignored, and the picture embraced?

Absolutely undecided,

Miss Ive

Belle, I'm so glad your internet recovered. I read your post this morning with my coffee, and had a wee cry. So lovely and sweet.

Doc you were so eloquent as well; thank you all for your wonderul posts.

I think tribalism must be in our genes, we factionalize so readily (witness the Middle East, the former SSRs and Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, all those little protestant denominations).

I will continue to hope for the extinction of the n-word, especially as it is used now, by the very people it was meant to insult, to refer to one another. I'll never understand that, I don't think...

The poll today does not give us the usual "You tell us" or "Other (please explain)" option.  But, when I think of great civil rights movements, I think of the Blumstein's boycott.

Blumstein's was a white-run department store in 1930's Harlem that refused to hire black workers for anything more than menial labor.  You could be a janitor but not a sales clerk or a manager.  The boycott didn't carry much weight until a young Baptist clergyman named Adam Clayton Powell Jr. came along to lead it.  He preached at Abyssinian Baptist Church on 138th St., to this day one of the largest and most influential Baptist congregations in the U.S.  Later, he would become the first black man on the NYC council, the first Harlemite in the U.S. Congress, and the first black chairman of any major Congressional Committee (the Education Committee as it happens).

"Don't Buy Where You Can't Work" was emblazoned on the banners and, in 1934, the boycotters won and Blumstein's changed their policies.  1934!!!  Two full decades before anyone had ever heard of Rosa Parks.  Three cheers for Parks but it's clear that, when Dr. King organized the Montgomery bus boycott of the mid 50's and spearheaded the Civil Rights Movement, he borrowed a page from Dr. Adam Clayton Powell and his Blumbstein's boycott some twenty years earlier.

By the way, my first comment today was actually intended for yesterday's page (you guys probably figured that out) but the topics must have changed over while I was typing.

Miss Ive, I missed answering your poll due to the occasional post lag here. I quite agree that we sometimes find ouselves protesting "but some of my best friends are (fill in minority of the moment)". I live in a small city whose public schools are decimated by white flight to the suburbs, and constant manipulation and gerrymandering by rich people to separate their kids with vouchers, teacher merit pay, and whatnot. I have earned my share of resentment by publicly wondering why we don't just make sure that ALL SCHOOLS ARE EQUALLY FUNDED, so they're all capable of providing a quality education, and stop jockeying for position and trying to fix a system that's not really broken, just poor and unequal. And stop teaching test taking and get back to the three Rs. I believe that elementary school teachers should be paid commensurate with their effect on society, so we can attract the best minds. They would thereby enjoy remuneration and esteem at least equal to neurosurgeons and feckless pop stars, and do far more good than either.

Politicians and administrators have elevated doublespeak to an art form, spouting meaningless gas and temporizing endlessly when we need to hear common sense and accountability. Nobody wants to say what needs to be said, it's not PC and someone's sure to take the huff. For this reason, among many others, I welcome Barack Obama's candidacy, forcing us to look in the mirror and take stock instead of dancing around and finessing issues. I hope he wins, and makes a lot of changes, and mistakes, and eloquent speeches, and helps us see ourselves as the diverse population we are. With luck and determination and candid discourse, we may avoid the Balkanization that destroys the viability of other nation states. I know that fossilized policy and speechcraft based on poll numbers will just sink us deeper into our potential national miasma.

Sorry, I'm unfocused, all over the map, just ranting.

I hope I never get too old to enjoy a fresh breeze...

Olivia,

As much as I love your 'romantic' speak, I love your rant more! Go, girl. Education is a very hot topic for me, as well. We will sit for a drink soon and rant in unison.

Love that you said 'feckless.' Such good words. So glad you are in the schools.

Miss Ive

There are some things that I will simply never understand.  I'm 30, so many of the things that were major issues and history making events seem normal to me.  It is shocking to me when racisim rears up.  My grandfather is 95, and every once in awhile something pops out of his mouth that makes me wonder if we've suddenly been transported from Nebraska to 1950's Alabama. 

Miss Ive and Olivia - I want to go too, and I'm not above inviting myself if I sense no objection (I know, shameless). I won't rant but promise just to listen. I wanna see how Olivia is dressed, listen to your discourse, and I'll bring my signed copy of Peterman Rides Again.

"Feckless" was good but I'm loving "miasma".

Tiberius - aka: Don Juan (ok, so I have occasional identity issues).

This is a great thread to weave together with the previous one, since thinking outside the box and Jackie Robinson quite obviously go together, and I have a very entertaining family story to go along with this bit of Peterman genius today...

I was a Delta Tau Delta at Ohio Wesleyan University, and so was Branch Rickey - many years before me, of course. But Branch always kept up with his friends and confidants in Delaware, Ohio, through the years. One of that circle of advisors was my grandfather, who was Rickey's history professor. My Granddad, Hastings, taught at OWU for forty years. One night, Branch called his friends together for a little pow-wow at another friend's house, that of Barney Russell, in Delaware. A really lovely place on Griswold Avenue that I once tried to get my Dad to buy (alas). And during that evening's ruminations Branch revealed his intentions to hire Robinson, and asked for his friends' advice. Barney Russell and my Grandfather were all for it, as was everybody else in the room. And history was made from a little town in central Ohio.

Well done, Brother Rickey. And good show, Granddad.

Tiberius,

Politely, and for the record, I was literally talk about a 'rant' about the schools. Nothing else. Sorry, man.

I am humbled by the eloquent expressions of your thoughts on racism and prejudices in our society (as I am on most of the topics discussed in this forum). I would add only this personal observation.

Perhaps the arrogance that manifests itself in so many ugly and often brutal forms of racism and prejudice is really born of fear that has been turned into cowardice.

Instead of accepting, dare I say celebrating, those characteristics that make each of us different in some way; because after all, we all bring something good to the party; these differences are feared and rejected. Instead of facing and eliminating this fear through understanding, it is unfortunately easier to isolate and take all manner of regrettable action to erect barriers that further protect ones sameness, self image.

How can one take pride in saying "look how far we have come in treating those different from ourselves as equals". When was it ever the "right thing" to hold oneself over another because of differences in physical attributes that are beyond one's control?

Let's just try to do what each of us can to speed up this evolution of our species.

As I was feeding my birds it dawned on me that all I really wanted to say was that isn't treating others with the respect and dignity they deserve based on their behaviors instead of that which is merely superficial the very least we should be expected to do to qualify as human beings.

Sorry about all of the extra words in my previous post.

PeterLake,

You said so eloquently what I think I was trying to ask in my very long post. I'm just asking, sincerely curious, is talking about the race thing just reinforcing that there IS a race 'thing?' Or, is it helpful?

I like the way you said it better, though. Thank you.

missive,

You are way too kind, . . . . .  but I like it!

It was while strolling through your post that quickened my thoughts.  Slightly different paths that lead to a similar destination.  You travel a very scenic path and that is good.

Taking pride in one's acceptance of another human being based solely on their merits is like taking credit for breathing.

I have a little different insight into the "racism" issue.  I guess you could term me as a mutt!!  I have multiple ethnic blood running through my veins, however, until I was 9 years of age, I thought I was black.  I was raised by a wonderful, loving, black woman named Anna Mae Jackson.  She helped mold me into the person I am today (for better or for worse). She and my parents both never made an issue of color.  We all lived in a mutually respectful home where it just wasn't an issue.  Unfortunately when I went to school I was faced very abruptly by a black child the same age as I who informed me that I was NOT black! I was very confused.  I went to church every Sunday with Anna Mae...my long golden blonde hair and blue eyes obviously very different from everyone elses in the pews and yet no one had excluded me or pointed out to me that I was different in any way.  I was heart broken.  As I grew up I realized as many of you have already mentioned that this child who brought this to my attention had to have been taught this.  Later in life, I witnessed and felt discrimination because I was heavy.  There are so many different terms you can use for racism: bias, discrimination, disrespect, and many others.  It hurts no matter the word used.  Now that I am much older... and thinner I am sometimes discriminated against just because I am blonde and blue eyed.  My simplistic point is it just doesn't take much for people to discriminate against someone else.  I will end this post by saying that the baseball players of today are good but the greatest baseball player to EVER live was Jackie Robinson.  I personally think he changed the worlds view of color.

Have a great day all no matter your race, color, religion, political affiliation, choice of beer, favoite baseball team, or hair color du jour.  I wish every one a great day.

I'm just going to quote a line from an Aerosmith song:

If you can judge a wise man
By the color of his skin
Then mister, you're a better man than I

If I may be honest... I personally fear stereo types, not race.  A man should be judged by his actions alone... not his color.  I find it ironic that the very religion that makes up the majority of minorities, teaches slavery is acceptable.  Oh, theologians today try and espouse new theory on what the bible really meant, but just read the words and you'll see... slavery - apart of everyday life...

Leviticus 25:44
'As for your male and female slaves whom you may
have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations
that are around you.

Luke 19:17

"And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.'

I find it ironic that the very religion that makes up the majority of minorities, teaches slavery is acceptable.

That begs for an entirely different post from Mr. Peterman, doesn't it?

Miss Ive - Please don't be sorry. I was speaking in jest.

JE - What an interesting glimpse into the moments prior to a momentous event. It should be formally recorded for future history books, or at least for posterity.

Mackdaddy - I think you are exactly right, it just doesn't take much to discriminate against someone else. In the military it's quite easy. Is the person approaching an officer, or enlisted? What rank? Then your eyes go straight to the fruit salad (medals and ribbons). Right there is a collective summary of your military history. After a quick glance you can begin to form your preconceived ideas and notions about that person. It all has to do with what that person can do for you, and what you personally have to accomplish in your military role, or, how much that person can hurt you. Race falls to the bottom of your list of priorities, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with how that person is going to perform, or behave.

Now, as I really really try to think about it honestly, in civilian life, when someone approaches me, my very first question seems focus on gender identity. Probably comes from some biological instinct.

MackDaddy!

What a lovely story. Thank you.

Am now inspired to change my 'hair color du jour' and mix things up a little.

Very moving.

Okay.  I am back.  I have had to spend a good amount of time catching up on all the posts, but now I must put in my two cents worth.  We had a guest that stayed in the guest room two nights and that is where my computer resides, so I couldn't get to it.

First, to Olivia;  Ahh yes!  That mutton-sleeved dress!  I had it in red and wore it as the mother-of-the-groom dress for my son's Christmas wedding!  Loved it!

Next, PeterLake; "Let's just try to do what each of us can to speed up the evolution of our species."  Yes!  As many of you already know, I was a genetics researcher and so this approach really hits my core beliefs.  Hybred vigor is definitely a very real thing and does work.  Just look at Tiger as an example.  And if you are simply looking skin deep, so many of our high fashion models are a race mixture.  But then, aren't we all, to some extent?  I am a descendant of Pocohantas, so I guess that makes me a "half-breed" as well.  Yea for half-breeds!

Back in the early 50's, the original "This I Believe" series was done by Edward R. Murrell (sp?).  My father was asked to do one of the segments.  He approached the subject of racism beautifully, I think, and I have used the analogy myself upon occassion.  He said that when he was in the Navy Medical Corps during WWII, he found that "Negro blood would save lives of young men, no matter what their color, just as well as blood from white men." That takes the issue below the concept of skin color and down to the basic idea that we are all of the same species and we should get over this tribalism mentality and learn to live as one species.  

When I was in college in the late 50's, my sorority conducted rush and was very impressed with a Japanese girl and really wanted to pledge her.  We didn't have a recomendation on her so the officers had to meet with our alumn group so they could give us one.  They informed us that we could definitely run into problems with "National" over taking her as it was only 12 years since the end of WWII and there were still hostile feelings toward Japanese.  Did we want to take on that issue?  I was never so proud of that group in my life.  Without even conferencing over the answer, we all said very firmly that if National didn't want us to take this girl, then we didn't want to be a part of a sorority that felt that way and we would immediately go "local".  The allums grinned and immediately signed the recomendation. There was no reprisals for our actions.  It simply didn't seem like it mattered to us, and in today's world, does seem trivial.  At the national convention that next summer, a lot of other chapters came up to our Pres. and asked "how we bucked National".  Very surprising.  So apparently, our chapter's action was a gateway to opening our sorority to other than WASPS.  Hooray for us!  

Wheatgrass,

Yes, very scary things about race and slavery in the Bible. But I don't hear the God in whom I believe in any of them. So I just disregard. A very bold girl who takes only the things she wants. Not much of a 'rules' follower. Try it. It's very freeing. And it has worked for me.

No lightning yet.

Ever read C.S. Lewis? _Screwtape Letters_? INVIGORATING.

P.S. I DARE YOU all to read it!

Feeling very bold today. Too much tea.

Tiberius,

Thank you. No hard feelings, just keeping my reputation on the up-and-up. Smile.

PeterLake,
I thank you, and back at you (about the scenic path).

Missive... ever read the bible???  If one reads the bible in its entirety, several times, you'll see it's not a buffet you can choose from.  The god of the hebrews is quite specific about his "rules" it seems... pick up a stick on the sabbath and you might just get stoned... and not in the best of senses.

Yes... Lewis has been read.

Ever read Hitchens, "God is not Great"?  Suggest you do.

And before I close please refrain from quoting verse after verse from the supposed "new" testement on god's love and freedom from said "rules"... for I can surely list for you the "to-do's" there that go unkept by many the church goer...

Wheatgrass,

Do not take this personally, but I'm giggling a little at your great passion over something in which you claim not to believe.

Do you get this riled up over Santa Claus? Easter Bunny?

Will not quote to you. Faith is something I feel. Like love. Like love with someone I have never seen or touched. But it is real. And I would never degrade it with debate. Ever.

But I like your fervor. You should post more. You have a lot of Lewis in you—invigorating. Ahhh. . .

Many of you have posted that Racism/Prejudice is a taught or learned behavior. And to in many ways you are correct.  Although in my personal experience my household was quite different.

My father was a prison guard at the local reformatory, my fathers sentiments about the people "doing time" in there ~ were to say the least not at all PC.  I grew up overhearing pretty much every slang word that is considered offensive to every race possible.  Yet even though my father's job was stressful & his life was endangered more than once by the jailed Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Cubans, & Eskimos.  

We were taught by while out in the world by those same parents to judge person by their character not their color.  It was an interesting paradox so much so that when we would be out in the mall or hardware store some big tattooed guys would walk up & say Hi to "Sergeant Pepper" & ask him how he was & how so & so was doing.  It was interesting to so my father talk & answer these (scary looking at least to little girls) guys questions.  Once we were in the car he would tell us that the guy was in the pen for this or that & its nice to see him getting his life back together.  

Looking back my parents walked a very fine line & could have taught us that most of the population in the prison was of a certain race & we should hate it because all of it will most likely end up being kept in a 3X9 cell by my father.  Yet they made the decision not to even though we overheard more than our share of the "adult" conversations about prejudices' & stereo types we never really expected to see them from the people we met.

Now you have to understand I grew up in small town where basically until High School the only other race we had was Native American, but you really couldn't tell the difference & our class an American/Korean kid had in it.  No one recognized a difference for years. In High School the Hmong & Vietmenese (sp) starting moving into the area & into our school district. In the bigger town if you were African American & lived here in the 80's most people expected that you were a NFL Football player & that's the only reason why you were in town.   I hate to say it but this whole area is still pretty much mostly white.  Well me being me & didn't follow the traditional path in life & after High School I signed up for a stint in the Job Corps Program. Now this program gives training to underprivileged & at the time troubled kids (I was neither just needed the training) I headed up to a center in the WI Northwood's. (Because I LOVE that area & it was close to home) 

I got off that bus & on that little campus up in the north woods of WI I was suddenly a Minority!!!! Couldn't believe it (don't think my eyes ever really popped back into my head) I suddenly had 3 African American Roommates & was taught A LOT about rap music, do rags, fried chicken, hair weaves, hair gels, braids & recovering drug addiction. 

The funny part was the most troubled kids in there at the time were really the White ones.  But I also made some great friends & received a totally NEW understanding of why you never judge a book by its cover.  What the experience really taught me was that it doesn't matter what color skin anyone has there's bad apples in every group. Prejudice are inherit everyone has a prejudice in them whether it's against a cultural race or a food type. The way to overcome it is to face it in your everyday life, because what Prejudice really just equals Fear.   

Rings, your experiences are so true; in my long and checkered career (which included a stint in the 1960s working for anti-poverty programs) we sent myriad young white women to Job Corps settings so they could get some needed training since nothing was available in the rural areas of the northwest and without ever meaning to, families met the poverty criteria.  Color certainly doesn't define poverty or behavior.  And I cherish your most profound statement  that Prejudice equals fear!

I still laugh when I remember the last time David and I were in New York - going from the theater district to Brooklyn via the J line, and stepping out of the train onto the weed and grass covered area that would lead us to the street - broken glass all over - and here we are clinging to each other in fear - no prejudice involved! (I'm sure his colored had paled by that time) and when we finally reached his brother's house, we felt safe.  But one would think that Black as he was, we would have felt safe - but fear is fear, and we do fear the unknown - and neither of us knew the folks on the street as we walked. 

I think of his beautiful little great-niece now - all graduated from university and married to a successful NFL linebacker - flying back and forth from the west coast to her home in the big city, and I know that the things David encountered have never touched her pretty little head - time has a way of helping and healing, but my current worries are that as the pendulum swings, we (and again that is my editorial pronoun - I still don't have lice) will forget that we must get acquainted with and find common ground with those who look different than we think we do.  News reports today indicate this is the last generation of white majority - not too far from a time when the shoe may be on the other foot. 

Greetings:  I went out to dinner the other month (I don't get out much) with five adults (another rarity).  The group consisted of business owners, college profs, executives, and the like.  It was a random group, parents of kids who all play baseball for the same team.  The topic of current presidental candidates arose.  I could not believe the comments that were expressed that night.  This, I thought, was an intelligent group with open additudes; but alas, no.  I came away that night stunned. It was like I had gone back in time 30yrs.  People say what is PC, but when the truth be known.......   It's sad.

DPR:  I would really like to read your take on the WoOZ.  How could I access your work?  I still don't like flying monkeys.

A few more thoughts:  (1)Every human being is a member of SOME minority: left-handers, blondes, hairy males, short people (remember Randy Newman's song? cf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA ).  (2) Our emotional brains are often in disconnect with our thinking brains, so it's a no-brainer (groan) that lots of folks have hatreds inside that don't relate to much except sub-rational circuits.

Since confessionals seem the order of the day, here are a few weird things from my own life... (Oh, incidentally, I'm a Caucasian male...) In high school I joined the local chapter of the NAACP, and vividly remember sitting in the rather ramshackle home of a lady who had gotten her MA in Education, but couldn't get a job teaching.  I was too young to realize how devastating that must have been.  Today, the poor neighborhood in which she lived has been gentrified and is the most highly prized neighborhood in my small town of 12,000.  Things change. ==  In college I had my room repeatedly vandalized (bed overturned, papers strewn about, obscenities scrawled on term paper drafts, etc, etc).  I never knew who was doing it or precisely why.  Many years later, at a college reunion which I brought my son to, a 'crazy guy', now quite respectable, came up to me and (in front of my son) admitted he had been the ringleader of the attacks, and they were because he considered me a 'nigger lover' as he put it.  He apologized to me, and -- turning to my son -- said, "I was wrong and your father was right."  That was many years ago, but I have an immense gratitude to this man.  (Anyone with a teen son understands.) Moreover, I have an enormous respect for him: he had the guts to apologize and the smarts to realize that his actions and beliefs were not 'right'.  Peoople change == And finally, living among Hispanics in El Paso, meeting activists in the Mexican American community, having family in Spain, Mexico, and Japan, having lived in England, Spain and Thailand, I realize that hatreds based on race, ethnicity, religion (or irreligion), nationality etc are not limited to Causcasians:  unfortunately, all humans have the same weaknesses, and the same tendency to look upon differences and not to peer deeper to see the basic similarities.  The good news is that folks have the ability to grow out of their instinctive fears. ... One final story:  I had an Azerbaijani acquaintance a few years ago, and he shared the usual 'ethnic garbage' of folks from there (he was very nationalistic, too!).  I was very surprised one day when he announced he was going to the annual Armenian Festival, and I said so.  (Azerbaifanis and Armenians do NOT get along!) He replied, 'Well,that's all from the old country.... and besides, the food is really, really good!'  Wouldn't it be very cool if all the world's differences could simply be resolved by folks just sitting down and eating together?  Ha!  Maybe I should get off my Weight Watchers diet for an evening and have some fried chicken, okra, and a slab of cornbread at some obscure restaurant down 'in the hood'.  If nothing else, it would give the locals something to talk about: 'Hey, did you see that white dude?  What's he doing here?'  (Heh, heh, heh).

I don't know that racism/prejudice is just a taught or learned behavior. I think we all take away what we choose from life's lessons and experiences, or at least we should. I do think that the circumstances of one's youth do start you down a particular path.

My individual circumstances placed me in a very diverse environment at an early age. I have benefited from that experience my entire life (well up to and including today at least).

I'm the third one from the left in the top row. I'm wearing a pre-J.Peterman flannel shirt with non-matching square pattern and clip-on suspenders. http://www.flickr.com/photos/8002542@N04/2763096473/sizes/l/

When I had to attend a "regular" school, if you can call a parochial school where we all had to wear uniforms so that we all looked alike" regular", well it was pretty, pretty plain vanilla boring to me.

PeterLake, I sincerely hope you still have those dimples in your cheeks!

belleball,

You just made the dimples express themselves again.   Thank you.

I am not concerned about other peoples' race, religion, ethnic origin, or sexual orientation.

It's irrelevant.

Civilized behavior is more important even if it's only the appearance of civilized behavior.

A segment of CNN this morning noted that by 2042, the U.S. would be mostly minorities because there would be no majority race. E Pluribus Unum.....at long last.

I grew up not far from liverpool, England. Besides the Beatles, the Liverpool docks were full of cargo-ship sailors from all over the Empire and the world. I grew up seeing various shades of humans, hearing every language spoken on earth and smelling the aromas of exotic food.

When I came to the U.S. (Los Angeles, where I still live), I discovered the "melting pot" was mostly shades of white, some paler than others. Over the years L.A. has become an exciting place to live. That's why I live here.

I recall taking the "ferry cross the Mercy" and not being able to understand what any one was saying.......L.A. has become that way, today. Somehow I still manage to order the right hamburger at Carl's Jr. despite the language barrier.

Many complain, but I wonder how many want to go back to the white bread and mayonaise L.A. of the late 50's/early 60's?

I'm half English (German/Scandinavian, some French, and half Irish (my Irish ancestors were from the South of Ireland but originally Basques from Northern Spain). I've never liked being called an Anglo ( I'm not). I'm now an American...E pluribus unum.....and my kids (or my ex's side) are Scotts-Irish and Swedish.

We're Protestants, Catholics, agnostics, atheists, democrats, republicans, independants.....we get along very well. One son will soon marry a Mexican girl, my daughter is engaged to a Mexican man.

To: Olivia,

I'm one of those rich, old white guys you mentioned.......hope I haven't made to much of a mess. Now you might be wondering why I was watching CNN and not my beloved FoxNews? I think it was "senior moment". (Note to self: no more senior moments!) LOL

Miss Ive, thanks for the kind words. I come from a family of teachers and medical people, and have combined the two. I'm a Respiratory Therapist, and I now teach it (along with some other subjects) in a community college. I rant to my students (and did to my kids, too-I caught them several times in the rearview mirror of the car rolling their eyes, giggling, and lip-synching my oft-repeated sermons on the value of education, manners as "social lubrication", and diet and exercise as preventive care-it was too funny) till I'm sure they're sick of learning how to protect themselves in the hospital by maintaining a strong immune system, about medical ethics, empathy, and on and on.

I enjoyed The Screwtape Letters immensely, along with all of CS Lewis' writing. I'm sure you all know he was a close friend of JRR Tolkien, and they competed in discourse and debate, as well as their literary efforts. Wouldn't you love to have been asked to tea with them? Probably as much fun, in its way, as the Algonquin Round Table. I can also recommend Letters From the Earth, by Mark Twain, Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, and The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. All interesting thinkers, very stimulating.

Time and place for that drink, dear, time and place...Tiberius, what era would you like me to dress from? I love to go all Period Costumey. Such fun! Don't get to do that as often as was.

My degree is in Anthropology, and I was never so proud of my discipline as the day in Cultural Anthropology when my German-Mexican professor told us that anthropologists had proven conclusively around the turn of the 20th century that there was NO SUCH THING AS RACE-it's a political construct used to divide people with much in common, so they won't realize how much power they can wield if they unite. A primal Wedge Issue, and they're still doing it. See, I AM staying on topic a bit!

I'll take you home with some quick anecdotes...

When it was just Mom and me against the world, she hired a friend in need of a job to stay with me after school so I wouldn't have to be a latchkey kid, and to pick me up from school when it was raining or whatever. Mom had to work to keep us going, and she was one of the few female executives here at that time, aware she was elevated as a token, but smart enough to use it to keep us solvent. It didn't hurt that she was gorgeous and did a great job too. I remember her or one of her friends saying that "in order for a woman to receive half of the consideration a man gets for any job, she has to be twice as good...fortunately, this is not a problem" Anyway, I quickly decided Rosetta must be my aunt since she treated me the same as my other aunts (I was only wee), swatting my cute little ass whenever I needed it, and making me wonderful things to eat other times. It was only much later that I realized she was darker than me-it didn't seem to make much impression at that age.

One night I was moonlighting to keep my skills up, working the evening shift in a local LTAC (long term acute care facility). It was a busy night, chronic critically ill people trying to die, we all trying to not let that happen, probably much like what an army hospital must experience in a war zone sometimes. We busted it for 12 hours straight, sharing our knowledge and skills, helping one another, wisecracking, and we all decided to go out to a club after and get relaxed. So we did, and that was good too. About one AM, all of us sitting around the table-doctors, nurses, and the Respiratory Lady, having a grand old time, the craic was ninety, and a girlfriend and past student of mine piped up wonderingly, saying "hey, did anybody notice that Olivia's the only white girl here? Only white person, actually. I protested that my Mediterranean and Celtic heritage favored me with a lovely olive complexion, and we had a good laugh about it. I'm not sure what the message there is, but we all were pretty proud of ourselves anyway.

My son's posse often spent their evenings at the house, playing video games, ranting about politics (it's genetic, and I confess I egged them on too) and watching movies and Adult Swim and the cartoon and comedy channels. I occasionally got them to switch it to Discovery or History, once I did the play-by-play for a difficult delivery on Discovery Health, that got me some respect I'm here to tell ya. I would make pizza or chili, whatever was necessary to keep them together and at home. Some great discussions ensued, and one night they noticed that they were composed of my Brendan, Irish/French/Cherokee, Mark, an excessively handsome, intense and intelligent young black kid, Robbie the hilarious Mexican kid, I don't remember the Asian boy's name, but they all had a crush on my daughter, two years younger than Brendan and doubtless the fiestiest. I also overheard and later figured out what a MILF was, to my son's everlasting embarrassment...

Again, I'm not sure what that all adds up to except for a lot of fun in life, and very open minds, I'll testify. And a terribly overlong post, too-sorry,my cordial companions. Now, Miss Ive, I've worked up a powerful thirst...

To ExPat-You may be old, and rich, and white, but you're not who I was talking about...

Olivia,

"Time and place."

My kind of girl! I've been saying, since I've been on here, when is the get together? I think nobody takes me seriously!

Maybe I should name a time and place. Right you are.

Might be like herding cats, but one never knows...worth a try!

Here's a link to an interesting article about prejudice:  http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=buried-prejudice-the-bigot-in-your-brain  ... It appeared in the April/May 2008 issue of 'Mind' magazine....

If that doesn't work, just type 'Buried Prejudice' in the Scientific American website's search bar at the top right of the page (look for the peacock blue 'Search' button)... for reasons unknown, links don't seem to be working here....

Olivia - How about early 1940's and I'll wear my vintage Lieutenants uniform from the Army Air Corps?

Doc Nolan - Great link to a credible scientific study into racial bias. I was shocked to know that there are approximately 200,000 hate crimes per year with 84% being violent. I had no idea. I was encouraged to see that those who were made aware of their implicit racial bias were able to correct their behavior to some degree. These studies prove scientifically that we delude ourselves when we believe that we are not prejudiced to race and color.

I went to an all white high school, but this study brought to mind the ubiquitous cliques and "In crowd" groups that formed, and were a normal, and natural, part of our high school culture.

Great link! Thanks so much. It was an fascinating eye opener for me.

I can't help but think that we won't conquer either racism or sexism until we remove all the tick boxes from all the forms...  After all, nearly no one asks about your haircolor except the DMV.  Why should an employer, a college, or a website need to know if you are an innie or an outie, or which particular drop of ethnic blood you most identify with?  I can't help but think that life is too short, and so should the paperwork be.

Tiberius, I can do that! Mmmm, a man in uniform makes my little heart go pitty-pat! As long as he's not writing me a ticket...

Missive and Wheatgrass,

I have been hashing this out quite carefully because I am so fond of you both and I really don't want to offend.  But I have no talent for just keeping silent.

First of all, Wheatgrass is passionate about something he does believe in: the mind of a single human being.  That is the highest positive on this earth and something that I imagine all of us on this site believe in to varying degrees.  On the other hand, I have always said that one of the nice things about being an atheist is that I feel no great need to prosletyze.

I love Christopher Hitchens and consider him one of the great independent thinkers of our day (as was C. S. Lewis in his day).  However, Hitchens does tend to draw some rather shaky conclusions when he assumes data not in evidence.  Nevertheless, one of his great talents is admitting when he has made an error, something many high-profile speakers fail to do.

I have never before heard debate described as a form of degredation.  To each his own I suppose but, where I come from, debate is like baseball for the brain.  A wonderful and fun way to exercize the mind and perhaps even the heart.  Debates about the nature of love, sex, politics, religion, art, science, and many other topics (all of which are fraught with feelings) were standard dinner table conversation throughout my childhood and youth.

It is true that, when reading the Bible, we cannot get around the fact that it explicitly states that it is not open to interpretation and not a smorgasboard from which preferred contents can be picked and chosen.  However, not being a Christian, there is nothing preventing me from finding things in the Bible that I like.  "Honor thy father and mother" and "thou shalt not steal" make pretty good sense to me regardless of the fact that I don't believe there's a benevolent being creating women out of men's ribs.  You can embrace the Bible without embracing the religion it preaches.  But, according to the Bible, you can't go the other way around.

That's about all I can say on this matter without getting into trouble with one or both of you.  My very best to you both.

DPR, you are the soul of discretion and I love and agree with all you said. I too find that olio of ancient myths, pagan stories, and great fiction a good read, and there are some pithy sayings too! Mr Hitchens is a man of parts, and I enjoy his lucubrations as well. Debate IS a grand form of intellectual stimulation, and this trend of demonizing anyone you disagree with will not stand, I say. It will not! Out with it!

Debate being a fun game notwithstanding (I have my share of trophies in the basement), there's some sage advice that predates any of the currently popular Desert Death Deities. A cool breeze of northern wisdom wafts down from Asgard, where the incomparably more ancient Odin advises:

I counsel thee, Stray-Singer, accept my counsels,
they will be thy boon if thou obey'st them,
they will work thy weal if thou win'st them:
never in speech with a foolish knave
shouldst thou waste a single word.

You tell 'em, Old One!