The Price of Liberty

Actually, Mr. Peterman, Alexandre Gustave Eiffel did not yet have the tower for which he is most famous on his resume.  That tower was not completed until 1889, some three years after the unveiling of Lady Liberty (whose actual name was Liberty Enlightening the World).  At the time that he was collaborating with Bartholdi, Eiffel was most famous in France for his bridges.

As for the topic of the Patriot Act, I am reminded of a quote from Benjamin Franklin:  "He who sacrifices his fundamental liberty in order to obtain a little temporary safety shall have neither liberty, nor safety."

Shortly after 9/11, I was walking on Madison Avenue when I heard a man talking about the new measures being taken.  He said, "What good are civil liberties if you're dead?"  I was in a hurry so I didn't stop to argue.  But the first thought in my head was how lucky we are that a group of farmers in Concord, Lexington, and Yorktown didn't feel that way.  In the 232 years since the signing of the Declaration of Independence (an act which could have gotten every member of the congress hanged), many of the nation's citizens have gotten fat and comfortable with the notion that death is no longer the price of freedom.  But it still is.  Often.  In those days, we had Patrick Henry shouting "Give me liberty or give me death!"  It was not a metaphor and it was not mere patriotism.  It was a real choice.  And so it remains.

Liberty Enlightening the World -> Lady Liberty -> Lady of the Harbor.....is this the same Lady? "...... the sun pours down like honey on our lady of the harbor and she shows you where to look among the garbage and the flowers-There are heros in the seaweed There are children in the morning They are leaning out for love And they will lean that way forever While someone holds the mirror And you want to travel with her And you want to travel blind And you know that she will trust you For she's touched your perfect body with her mind." thankyou L.C.

We have had our "freedom" for so long that most Americans truly cannot comprehend what it means to live without it.  It is not valued.  To most it's okay to give this "freedom" away or that "freedom" especially if they cannot see it's bearing on their own lives.  Most, who support the Patriot Act, cannot imagine it ever affecting them or someone they are close to.  It is horrible and unpatriotic in that it goes against everything our forefathers attempted to set up for this nation.  These same people feel that those arrested under the Patriot Act do not fall under the Constitution because the majority are not United States citizens.  That's a copout, and not a good one.  Are we not supposed to be the beacon of light that is an example to other nations?  Do we not have principles and ideals with the Constitution a written embodiment of them? No, we are instead hypocrites that only bring out our supposed principles and ideals when it is convenient for us to do so. 

First,  we already have a "Patriot Act" that's served us well for over 200 years.  It's called the Constitution and specifically the Bill of Rights. When were our beloved Founding Documents set aside in favor of the Patriot Act?

The Patriot act is unneccessary and basically nonsense. The best defense against the terrorists is to embrace our freedoms and be defiant in the face of their threats.  We don't need any document other than the Constitution and it's first ten ammendments to make us patriots and the Sons (and Daughters) of Liberty.

I personally don't give a damn about Bin Laden and his cave dwellers and desert rabble. We don't need a Patriot act to find and kill that freedom-hating Bin Laden and his so-called "army".

Second, did anyone notice that yesterday we had 70 comments on Peterman.  We have  many new "friends".  Welcome, everyone!

I think that the so called Patriot Act has not only violated the rights of Americans but also Canadians.  The LIberal government of Briitish Columbia has outsourced some of its functions to companies in the United States. An example is administration of the health  care system to a for profit organization  in America that has had lawsuits for Medicare fraud. Part of the sorry tale is on my political blog at

http://radiofreedomcanada.blogspot.com/2007/11/or-not-but-michael-moore-is-still-an-idiot.html

I am an ex-pat from the US and there is a great fear among Canadians that the US government will exploit private data of BC citizens.    

American has become a dirty word in  Canada.  I always tell people I'm from the Pacific Northwest, not the United States. 

In October, my family will mark 375 years in this country and particularly in New York.  They came here to escape the religious wars raging in Europe and so, the idea of freedom is, was and remains important to us.  For all of those 375 years, every man in each generation has served in an armed force as a volunteer.  I grew up in New York City and always felt the city "belonged" to me.  And a real point of pride was Lady Liberty - a very real symbol of that freedom.

 I don't know if I could give a real definition of the kind of freedom we enjoy in America.  But the sense and spirit of it has always been real.

Ben Franklin, in 1754 (I think), said: "Those who would give up essential liberty to gain a little safety deserve neither."  He was right, of course, but that was before "the gov'mint" became our sugar daddy, and we do so like our candy!  As you might guess, I am not a big fan of entitlements or big government on any level.  Although I usually cannot stand the ACLU, I must admit I agree with it on the issue of the intrusiveness of the Patriot Act: the potential for Big Brother abuses is too great--it's giving up essential liberty to gain a little safety.

I believe that the violation of our rights via the Patriot's Act was simply a way for our administration to look tough in the wake of 9/11. It saddens me that our country took these measures, which doesn't prevent or solve any of our country's problems, but does take away our liberties and especially threatens those who might be a different color or have a last name that raises a red flag. 

There is an interesting series of books (2 of them so far) by a writer who goes by the pseudonym of John Twelve Hawks.  Now, most of it is a combination of an action/thriller, multi-verse sci-fi, but the bad guys in the novels are a group of people who think the world must be kept under constant supervision and manipulation, to keep the masses from wondering about reality.  They do this through security cameras (like the ones on London streets), wire-tapping, internet surveillance, and data-mining of credit cards uses.  The theory they use is Jeremy Bentham's (a British philosopher) Panopticon, which is a physical representation of the belief that people will behave if they think they are being watched (even if they are not).

It all sounds a bit conspiracy theory-ish, but when you look at the Patriot Act, the warrentless wiretapping, and some of the other shenanigans of the past several years, it does make a person wonder.

One of the purposes of terrorism is to destroy our quality of life.  In some respects, they have accomplished that goal.  Not through their doings, but through our own.

I have just always loved how the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of American freedom and all that jazz, was a GIFT.
As original as apple pie [which we got from the English and Dutch].

The dog days are the best time for autumn retail therapy.

Decades ago, I sailed past Lady Liberty as I was on the way back from France.  That feeling I got from her presence in the harbour will never leave me. 

Liberty to me means liberty for all.  I'm afraid we have cut off our nose to spite our face with the Patriot Act...even though the TSA does help in our quest for full employment:-)

ExPat, I'm sorry but I think that as long as we hate Bin Laden or any other person we believe to have wronged us, tempting though it may be, we invite hatred.  It's not just those people over there that can compromise our way of life but those among us who gave themselves permission to fire bomb the house of a lab worker last weekend in California.  To me, that's just as frightening because those terrorists are ours. 

The Patriot Act encourages suspicion and distrust.  When we live with suspicion and distrust, we have given up our liberty voluntarily.

I suppose anyone can know anything about me; I don't think I have anything to hide.

But it's awful to see Americans living in such self-containted fear.  My entire family is in the States now, and I worry about the social climate.  Caution is one thing; fear just creates more problems.  tajar said it well.  There's no love in this kind of fear, it's only due to provoke more hatred - from within and without.

And then we've been sold this bill of goods that the Patriot Act has averted all these terrorist plots but of course they're not at liberty to tell us.

Don't you think this administration, especially, would mention it, if in fact, were true? Although I do think it's okay to hate Bin Laden and just quietly obliterate him.

It seems, at least on the surface of this discussion that our freedom of assembly and association (at least on a virtual level), our freedom of education, movement, press, religion, speech, thought and intellectual freedom are alive and thriving; at least in the context of this forum.

I think it is very sad and somewhat ironic that we entrust so many private institutions with information about our finances, personal health history, credit history, social security data, telephone records, and web browser history, etc........ But have such little faith and trust in our own elected government.

Ah... but of course we don't really trust these other private institutions either; do we? We don't trust their intent, nor do we trust their ability to protect our information against some hacker living in a garage.

I too am uncomfortable with some of initiatives that the government has taken in the name of protection and security. In the wrong hands, this level of power would threaten all of our precious freedoms that so many have sacrificed themselves in order to achieve and protect them. In the right hands, this level of power is a potentially overwhelming temptation for abuse.

I have yet to hear either of the presidential candidates come up with a concrete solution to the dilemma of me wanting my cake (protection), and eating it (freedom) too. I'm doubtful that there is a solution.

It sure would be nice if we could at least get a majority of eligible voters to exert the effort and vote when there is so much at stake. I might be able to trust a government that is actually elected by a real majority of the population, but not totally, of course.

BTW, those wonderful "dog days" of summer thunder storms I was praising yesterday turned into tornados & severe thunder storms with a lot a damage and power outages left in its wake.  I've gotta be more careful of what I wifh for.

I've been reading a great deal of late about the Revolution that followed ours, and there was quite a bit of marvelous prose that inspired it.  But somewhere in my reading, I came across this, and it applies not only to this situation, but a great many we have endured under our present administration.  They, obviously, feel differently.

"If you cannot make people good, you have no right to make them suffer." ~ Luc de Clapiers, Marquis de Vauvenargues, 1715-1747

I will let Benjamin Franklin answer: They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

And I think dreadpirateroberts has it right about the dog days of summer....

Huzzah, Huzzah, Huzzah!!
I must admit that I am with DreadPirateRoberts & Dina on the dog days activities.....
aided and abetted by a large pitcher of fresh Sangria!!!

The Patriot Act was enacted to enable law enforcement to "connect the dots" in order for them to stop terrorist plots before they are able to strike and kill innocent civilians.  I believe this to be a worthy goal. 

 Some may find provisions of the Patriot Act overreaching.  Others may think it does not go far enough.  Citizens of this country can engage in free and open debate regarding the provisions of this law.  We can elect lawmakers who can change provisions of this law.  We are a free people, living in a free society.  It isn't perfect, but I think we are collectively doing pretty well.  I'd say we are still deserving of this wonderful gift.

What exactly is the price for liberty?  For many of our ancestors Liberty meant seeing The Grand Lady standing over the harbor & believing in the words etched on her book. Later during WWI (1918) President Wilson ratified the Sedation Act ~ Kind of a rough draft of what is today's Patriot Act ~ It was never followed & later repealed by Congress as it was found to have been even violated by Wilson during the war years. 

WWII found the blacking out of letters to & from home by government officials & the lie from the government that Roosevelt was cruising up & down a river somewhere in America when in reality he was meeting with Churchill & Stalin at Malta.

Personally I'm really not sure what the grand difference between the actions during WWI & II by the government & the actions taken post 9/11. 

Liberty must be kept safe; to keep liberty safe sometimes in a countries history it may mean censuring certain activities or opening certain lines of communicating in order to "prevent" another 3,000+ innocent countrymen getting killed.

I'm not saying we should give in & have our Liberties striped away in the name of safety there's got to be more compromise towards keeping countrymen safe & in the "spying" on the countrymen in order to do so.

Whenever I read new rules, ordinances, or laws I always try to remember that one of the first law that the Nazis put in place in 1930's Germany was to forbid Jewish people from using the public pools.  I always try to use that perspective to see if I am agreement with the proposal or not.  Lately though it seems like federally & locally a lot of the "pool laws" are being enacted. 

At risk of sounding ambivalent, both Peterlake and ticking thyme bomb make excellent points.  Fifty years of "open door" policies and our instinct to meddle in matters far beyond our borders or our business have made us vulnerable as a nation and alienated an extraordinary number of people around the world.  (See George Will on the subject of nationbuilding--democracy is neither exportable nor inflictable.)  We are now paying for that utter lack of supervision with rather too much supervision... but if it keeps sarin out of the subways and bombs off the schoolbuses, that may not be such a bad thing.  The worrisome thing to me is not so much the potential for fascism on the part of the White House, because I think our political system lacks the attention span to get up a good head of dictatorial steam, but the potential of the infrastructure.  It is inevitable that our public agencies will stop monitoring at some point--it is both human nature to get bored and political nature to want to shift the money elsewhere--but the capability will still be there.  What would it take for some bright young accountant to work out the fiscal benefits of selling the use of that capability, or the data collected, to those not-so-trustworthy private (often multinational) interests that, as Peterlake points out, already own so much of our information?

What is the Price of Liberty? 

Andrew Jackson's Farewell address, March 4, 1837

"But you must remember, my fellow citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as the Federal Government. " (...especially this one)

Mercy!  I have just come to my computer after watching Mr. Smith Goes to Washington on TCM.  All welled up with partiotic vervor and Stewart's filibuster, I then come and read all these statements.  I am a bit overwhelmed.  If we could get Ben Franklin and Jimmy Stewart to lead us through this time, we perhaps should be on a good path. 

Gotta go now and find a kleenex. 

ExPat,

Hear hear! It is, indeed, wonderful to have so many new contributors, many of whom have provided (to my view) especially compelling comments.  I'm hungry for more.

bethyo2000,

Speaking of new contributors, hello.  Your point, "These same people feel that those arrested under the Patriot Act do not fall under the Constitution because the majority are not United States citizens," is excellent.  I would take it even further, though, and point out that this attitude is not merely a bad cop-out, it's flat out wrong!  Under U.S. law, the Constitution applies to all human kind, not just citizens of the United States.  The Patriot Act is a violation, not only of the Constitution, but of legally established precedents.

Lovey,

I am also charmed by the notion of Lady Liberty having been a gift.  Moreover, it is worth noting that Eduoard Du Laboulaye, the attorney and professor who first came up with the idea for this gift, was the president of the French Anti-Slavery Society.  Sadly, because of the delays in Lady Liberty's rise, he did not live to see her unveiled.  But, when he proposed the gift, he insisted that there be no government funding!  Voluntary donations only.  To me, that's the coolest aspect of all.

Heiress,

I also have nothing to hide.  This little community of ours can certainly attest to my life being an open book.  But that is my decision, not the president's.

ticking thyme bomb,

As a New Yorker, you can take it from me that stopping terror plots before they strike is, as you say, a worthy goal.  But what is the price we are willing to pay for this?  Do we have to become the very thing we fear and despise in order to obtain that goal?  Are we willing to do anything, no matter what the cost, in the name of that goal?  A defeated nation, with a proud history and trampled dignity may wish to lift itself up from a tanked economy and provide jobs for its people to lift them out of the doldrums of prostitution and petty theft.  That is certainly a worthy goal.  When the Germans of 1933 found themselves in this circumstance, they elected a new leader who instated many new programs in pursuit of that worthy goal.  16 million victims and a world war all came about in the name of this worthy goal.  I don't think any one has ever questioned the goal, but the method.

Spinner,

Why are you here?  It's Claude Rains day on TCM!  Now that you're finished with Mr. Smith, you should be watching The Sea Hawk, Errol Flynn's greatest role!  I taped all the Marie Dressler stuff yesterday because the vast majority of it isn't available on DVD.  I love Summer Under the Stars.

I have finally returned from 10 days in beautiful Wisconsin and, in order to get there and back via the airlines, been subjected to all manner of intrusive and hilarious scans, probes, exposure of my bare feet, etc.  All in the name of security, I do understand.  However, with no time for a healthy breakfast at 3 a.m., I had grabbed a new unopened carton of yogurt - which did not make it through the scan because it was a container of liquid - my bad. 

I arrived at my destination 5 1/2 hrs later, starving, irritable and incubating bronchitis, but calm because I knew I could see my doctor Monday and get relief for the bronchial stuff, and the first person I meet upon retrieving my luggage is my doctor, who tells me she is on vacation for 3 weeks!  Okay, plan B is in place now.

On to the topic at hand: Yes, we have responded to national unemployment issues with the creation of TSA, but I'd like to think we might have achieved greater good if we initiated more employment opportunities for those able to help us through training to practice good conflict resolution - and communication - skills... what the world truly needs now is love - sweet love.

Probably my belief and trust in the honesty of employees of some of the federal offices and bureaus remains a might tainted since I learned, for example, just how noble J. Edgar Hoover really was - and how he and his cohorts completely missed some obvious clues that could have prevented myriad real problems while he indulged his fantasies.  For every honest action, we learn years later of the "behind the scenes as it really was" antics.  Let's count: WMDs - no, stop -  the list would be too long and grim.  

Lady Liberty was a great gift to us - too bad we don't always remember the circumstances and that rather than mature as a great country, we seem now to forget why our ancestors risked their lives for us.  And descendants of the Native Americans who met them on the shores must wonder about their choices as well.  One of my ancestors missed that first boat, but never mind, he was kidnapped at age 14 from the shores of Scotland and sold to a printer in Boston.  We think he must have worked off the costs of his indentured servitude as he married a well-to-do woman from Connecticut and they lived happily ever after in upstate New York.

BTW, Are we allowed to climb all over Lady Liberty now or are there still parts not accessible to us - for our safety or to protect us from our clumsiness?  

Tajar,

I actually agree with you and Heiress.  I think you misread my comment. I personally do not "hate" Bin laden. I hate no one.  There are just those who don't deserve any respect or love. Bin laden does not get my respect, period. I said he was a "freedom hating" person. I personally don't give a damn about Bin Laden.  

ExPat, I apologize if I misunderstood your comment.  I have now reread, marked, learned, and inwardly digested. 

Start out with the Patriot Act, next thing you know you are running Nazi death camps.  Talk about your slippery slopes! 

tajar,

You're very kind.....we're not so far a part in our beliefs.

Belleball: Oh how your comments about the TSA hit home!  My husband has two fake knees and so we have to be at the airport about a half hour earlier than most so he can be scanned, scoped, and ultra-violated.  Now they have decided that C-PAP machines also have to be checked out , so while he is being physically asaulted, I am awaiting the rub-down of his C-PAP machine!  And interestingly, I can take my knitting with no problem...And we are old!  Not at all the suspicious demographic sort, just a couple of old Angloes trying to fly somewhere.  But we are Acting Patrioticly!

ah so, Spinner - it is interesting to note how many of us patriotic non-suspicious folks encounter life in the long lines!  Old folks like us are the only ones with time and patience to accommodate the cattle cars that fly around the country from airport to airport!  I can't imagine a prospective terrorist offering to give up his/her seat because the flight is oversold!  And I yearn for the old days when First Class meant a prime rib cart with chocolate sundaes for dessert...

To return to my rant about lack of trust in our system of government, I just found this on one of my newsblogs:

The reference is to a video made at a Fortune Brainstorm Tech conference last month, in which Lawrence Lessig recounts a conversation over dinner with Richard Clarke, the former government
counter-terrorism czar. Remembering that the Patriot Act was dropped on Congress just 20 days after 9/11 — the Department of Justice had had it sitting in a drawer for years — Lessig asked Clarke if DoJ had a similar proposed law, an "i-Patriot Act," to drop in the event of a
"cyber-9/11." Clarke responded, "Of course they do. And Vint Cerf won't ike it."
 

 This either shows there is nothing new under the sun - or - someone has already planned ahead.  While I do believe in planning, I find a very narrow ethical line between planning and plotting - and perhaps this is why Naomi Klein's work is fascinating reading.

Vive l'amour and vive liberte!

My favorite memory of the Lady is from around 30 years ago, a "No Nukes" rally at Battery Park City.  It was all a field then with the twin towers looming over it.  I was sharing a smoke with a friend watching the sloop Clearwater cruise by the Lady when the crowd started roaring and someone announced: "Ladies and Gentlemen, Crosby Stills and Nash".

I believe they started with "Teach Your Children" but there are some fuzzy moments from back then.  Now the towers are gone, but the field is built up.  Seeing Ground Zero a couple of years ago moved me beyond tears.  Communications have changed, the world has changed.  We were philosophy majors from a Jesuit college upstate.  We came partly for the music and partly to make a stand for what we believed in.  Maybe we will see a protest against the Patriot Act or maybe it will be a podcast. 

 I also suppose had I been born earlier and found my way to Chicago, instead of a beautiful fall day in New York I may have found an oppressive police force wielding much more power than the Patriot Act.  Response to a threat is a real thing.  The Patriot Act, Rockerfellers's Drug Laws and Daly's Police Force were and are reactions to threats.  Thank god we live a country where we change those things that go to far.  But it is our responsibility.

The photo I've used as today's avatar is one I've long admired. It's the view of Ellis Island from a boat of immigrants, through their eyes. I always thought that this is what Hope must look like.

"After what I have been through, the power of my dream makes it true. Even if this place is not the great beauty that I think it is, I'll make it so, one way or another." "The world they faced was terrifying and beautiful." Mark Helprin- description of an immigrant's first impression from his novel "Winter's Tale". The man can write. As long as the "American dream" still lives on within us, it will endure because we will" make it so".

Meantime, in the words of the afore mentioned John Twelve Hawks, I'm getting "off the grid" for tonight.

Be well

The Patriot Act; don't you just love what is labeled "patriot"? 

Right after the horror of the Twin Towers on 09/11, my husband and I were at a small neighborhood restaurant.  People were trying desperately to show how much they care about their country and what happened in New York.  At 7:00 pm we were asked to go outside, wherever we were, and light a candle in memory of this terrible thing.  The owners of the restaurant went from table to table and said, that if we desired, he had candles and some of us were going outside.  We did.  We lit the candles and at 7:00, spontaneously started singing God Bless America.  With tears rolling down my cheeks, and down many others, we felt what it was to be an American; to be so very proud to be an American and to not let anyone challenge that pride.

At another time, we took a boat ride around the harbor in New York and were closer than ever to the Statue of Liberty.  It was one of the most awe-inspiring moments we ever had; something never to be forgotten.  Again, one of American pride and a misty-eyed time.

It frightens me when I hear what patriotism means to some people.  Spying on your neighbors.  Big Brother is watching.......when does it become as a former president of ours believed, a person who disagrees with the current administration is then labeled a traitor?  Who are the watchdogs?  Who sees to it that they don't overstep their bounds?  The situation at airports has reached absurd levels...........most of the people I know will do anything to avoid flying.  And, does it work?

Europeans, specifically French and Italians have been dealing with Muslim terrorism for twenty years.

Pope John Paul was shot in 1981.

I travelled through the Rome airport in 2002 and there were military snipers on the roof.

This is an article about France:  http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,176139,00.html

These countries seem to be able to protect themselves without the ideology and divisive politics we have.

Apparently, France has a conservative law regarding terrorism - a suspect in any crime who is also associated with a terrorist can be detained in the name of terrorism. But you don't feel France would abuse their law to arrest abortion-rights protestors which one worries about these kinds of abuses with the current administration as seen in the Attorney General political hiring.

It's really not that complicated - less ideology and more common sense.

The USA Patriot Act is an acronym that stands for the following:

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism

It originally passed through the House and Senate by wide margins in 2001.   It was re-authorized in 2006 by the House and the Senate, not by as wide a margin, but still with Republican and Democratic support.

In bucking the trend, the patriot act, though "liberty" limiting, is a powerful tool against terrorism. It is possible to be on the wrong side of this law unfairly, as states above with the peaceful turned violent protestor example, but 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 the wire taps and "invasions of privacy" are legitimately used in efforts to stop terrorism. Another poster spoke of not needing the laws because we will get bin laden and his "army" without them, but I'm sorry, I forgot that we knew where Camp Al Qaeda is located and that they would simply let us
come in, have some smores and take them into custody.
I believe on limited government like seemingly the rest of you, but there are necessary evils in protecting the population, one of the key purposes of government. The first governments were set up to prevent outside attacks on a people and I don' t believe that the patriot act limits freedom to the point that we are losing our liberties. We can still protest, we just can't be violent, and why is that a problem? After all, my right to freedom of expression ends as soon as my fist hits your face. Good night.

Boy, most of these comments are well considered - agree with some and disagree with some but it's nice to see the old world of "reasonable people can disagree" still exists!

Acagle - Just as the saying goes "citizens get the government they deserve" well, sometimes governments get the citizens they deserve and Canada deserves you.

Ticking time bomb - please don't resort to the jejeune slippery slope Patriot Act - Nazi Death Camp argument - it plays to the idea that soccer moms are overemotional and that women in general are so simple as to believe the occasional and regretable violation of civil liberties is somehow analogous to the suffering and death of 6 million Jews, plus the millions of gays, religious and disabled who died in the death camps. Sorry some phones have been tapped - don't even like the PAtriot Act but IT IS NOT a death camp equivalent.

alas poor Canada. . . .

Perhaps I did not make myself clear (or perhaps I was hastily misread by a few people).  I never claimed -- nor even hinted -- that the Patriot Act was equivalent to the Nazi concentration camps.  What I stated was that the goals that were cited as the reasons for Hitler's election and the plans he made were worthy goals.  I then stated that it is the method, rather than the goal, that needs to be questioned.  Moreover, it is worth noting that, if Hitler had been assassinated in 1936, he would probably have gone down in history with the same reverence as FDR.  If you doubt me, check it out:  I'm not speaking metaphorically or hypothetically here.  There are plenty of historical documents to bear me out.  Before the camps were set up, the laws in Germany were not very different in content or alledged nobility of purpose than the that of the Patriot Act.

On that note, I think I must have also misread a post.  For a moment, I thought one of the contributors had said that European nations don't have divisive politics and that France isn't likely to abuse its law.  Once again, a little history, perhaps?

 James Madison wrote in The Federalist that freedom and order are in direct opposition.  As you increase either you decrease the opposite.

The question is will more order actually keep us safe?  Is it worth giving up the feedom we that we cherish?