The Roar of Justice city-journal.org Take a look at an interesting article we found.
Examined Life Variety Take a look at an interesting article we found.
Socrates Project Applicants Exceed the 650 Mark PR Newswire Take a look at an interesting article we found.
In-N-Out just celebrated its 60 year old anniversary. They must be doing something right.
October 23, 2008
You remember Socrates, who pioneered the use of inductive reasoning.
He was the "Lieutenant Columbo" of his time, only he usually had more than "just one more question."
"Why are you saying that? What exactly does this mean? How do you know this? How might it be refuted? Why do you think I asked this question?"
And that was for starters.
The Socratic Method, illustrated in the "Socratic Dialogues of Plato,"(his prize pupil) is a series of seemingly innocent questions that caused the recipients to question their very existence.
Which meant, success in Socrates' eyes since he believed that those who claim to know are the ones who do not know and those who claim not to know are the ones who do know.
(Under that theory, I'm a wise man. So I've always subscribed to it.)
Socrates claimed only examined lives are worth living. Not content merely with examining his own life, he set out to cross-examine the young men of Athens in order to help them realize they had, but the pretension of knowledge.
It wasn't long before he had these "empty vessels," as he called them, dazed, confused and doubting everything, and even worse, rejecting the gods of the state.
Soon Socrates got hauled up before the people's magistrate in 453 BC accused by the poet Meletus of “corrupting the youth and promoting his own divinities over that of the ruling class.
Under intense questioning, (the victim could question his accuser then) Socrates extracted an admission from Meletus, that he couldn't distinguish corruption from purity.
Fortunately, the only record we have of Socrates' words are from Plato's "The Trial and Death of Socrates"
“God commissioned me to search for the truth, Socrates said, "If I am evil, let the young men I corrupted and their relatives come forth and speak against me. They will not, of course, because they know that I am not evil.”
Socrates believed that the cosmos is grounded in absolute standards of goodness, a good person is rewarded and that death is a ticket to something extraordinary.
“If death is a journey to another place, what would not a man give if he might converse with Orpheus and Musaeus and Hesiod and Homer? Above all, I shall be able to continue my search into true and false knowledge; as in this world, so also in that; I shall find out who is wise, and who pretends to be wise, and is not.”
He drank the hemlock a contented man, with his principles intact.
So now my dear readers, I turn to you, with these questions. Is the examined life the only life worth living? Is truth absolute? Are ethics? Isn't the purpose of education to teach critical thinking?
And what guests would you have (you seat 5 and I've waived the language barrier) at your dinner table to help in your eternal search for wisdom?
Plato wsu.edu Take a look at an interesting article we found.
The Death of Socrates bc.edu/bc_org Take a look at an interesting article we found.
The Socratic Method: Teaching by Asking Instead of by Telling garlikov.com Take a look at an interesting article we found.
I think the setting is almost as important as the guest list, but perhaps that's just me.It would...
Oct. 23, 2008 1:53 PM
Favorite Greek Philosopher?
19% 14% 19% 14% 19% 14%
"The question set before us is no ordinary question: How should man live?" -- Socrates
I try to teach critical thinking on a daily basis in my composition classes. It is a daily struggle to get 18 and 19 year old freshmen to realize that A) they don't have all the answers and B) neither does anyone else.
Case in point: I just finished grading a batch of essays. In many of them, I found almost word-for-word copies of anecdotes I had told the class to prove some point. Not one student questioned themselves or me to see if I was right. They simply took it for granted that whatever I was saying was true.
I am tempted to expand on this: tell them some story that might be true, but really isn't, and see if they use it themselves. I probably won't, though. I have my doubts that they would get the point.
It has become a sad day, when the word "intellectual" has become an insult . . .
Mike-you are SO right! The skill of thinking, critical thinking, is waning fast in our culture. When I require my students to think deeply about a concept, they call it a TRICK QUESTION. My answer is that I will never apologize for requiring them to use their minds, so GET OVER IT. Or when they ask me a question in the lab, and I reply with questions building from simple to complex until they discover the answer that was in their lazy head all the time. They get annoyed, and whine that I won't answer questions. Again, I make no apology for being a teacher and teaching them to think.
The Socratic method is one I use on a daily basis in medicine, especially as it applies to teaching new physicians. It is presumptuous to think that we graduate from medical school and residency with a static knowledge of medical "truths." Medicine comes laden with preconceived definitions and textbook presentations of disease. We should not be rigid in our thinking and, instead, allow a healthy respect for questioning the "truths" in medicine. To further the science of medicine, we must be lifelong skeptics. By using Socratic discourse with our learners we can break the barriers of textbook presentations and predefined disease entities. Therefore, we can teach learners to think critically and take their baseline knowledge of medicine to interpret a patient's unique history and examination in the context of the individual person, their environment, and their social structure. The result is a more accurate diagnosis, resulting in mor effective treatment options, and ultimately, improved patient outcomes.
Jennie Churchill, Catherine the Great, Mark Twain, Kurt Vonnegut. This is like the topic about which books you'd take to a desert isle. Impossible!
Has anyone ever read a description of what it's like to die of hemlock poisoning? It's pretty gruesome...
Socrates must have been a real PITA to those stuffy Greeks.
Just 5? What if there was a quorm or committee of people, could that count as one entity? If so I think the whole continental congress is my #1. I'll get back to you on the other 4.
Just got home a couple hours ago from helping my parents host a casual dinner party for the remaining members of my dad's high school class of 1940. The one centinarian in the group (spouse of a class member) said you have less to explain if you dress well, thank everyone, and always make good on your promises. They weren't questioning why, they were just grateful to catch up on the details and see each other again. All so different, but all very good people with a lot to teach.
OFF-Topic
http://nachista.blogspot.com/2008/10/dress-and-accessories.html
Photos of some options for my ball accessories. More options to come in the following days. Let me know what y'all think.
I've always thought the purpose of education was not to fill our heads with facts but with knowledge. Our education should prepare us to think and solve problems.
The elements of success that I believe are essential are to be well-read, physically fit, and have an insatiable curiosity.......being able to think and solve problems is the finishing touch, the icing on the cake.
Thomas Jefferson, Mick Jagger, Mata Hari, Madame Curie, Cleopatra. Would settle for Poe in place of Jefferson, John Cleese instead of Jagger,Elizabeth I for Mata, Jane Austin for Curie, and maybe M. Monroe instead of Cleo.
First question:
WHO WANTS A DRINK?
I have changed my mind.
Peter Sellers, Ben Franklin, Helen of Troy, P.G. Wodehouse, and Coco Chanel.
No, make that AUDREY HEPBURN, Ben Franklin, Cath the Great, Wodehouse, Anais Nin...
OK, Peterman, you, me, and Olivia , Nachista, MissIve, and Rings. Some of the guys can come if they want to serve, but they'll have to wash dishes.
Nachista, I have been to parties where everyone wore gloves and the upper arm thing is mostly your imagination. I have seen it and you don't have it. White definitely, if you want to wear them. White is elegant and formal. Black is Klassy and hints that you might be unladylike for a price. a fairly low price.
If you don't need a bag, don't tote one, but then you have to ask SB to carry your lipstick. More than once, I have put on the soup and fish, reached into the pocket and asked "Now whose is THIS?"
The red shoes are pret-ty cool.
Socrates had every chance to escape Athens in secret without drinking the hemlock. His students and friends all encouraged him to take this opportunity and he refused. He insisted that he had always respected and depended upon the laws of Athens to protect him and his family. He would not violate them now that they happened to be against him. As Mr. Peterman said, he died with his principles intact.
My dinner companions would begin with the ancients; Hypatia, Aristotle, and Euclid. For a modern interpreter of the ancient philosophies, I would have Nathaniel Branden. If I only seat five, I would like to sit down rather than eliminating myself from my own dinner. But, if Mr. Peterman means that I can seat five in addition to myself, then I would add Johannes Kepler who would, undoubtedly, monopolize poor Euclid.
St. Ignatius Loyola , Jesus , Gilbert Gottfried , Mark Knopfler , and Lucinda Williams. I'd be in the background taping everything.
Of course, the "dialogue" we can have with most Famous Figures is available to us via the printed word, though certain aspects of any really good conversation are too personal or trivial to have made it into a book.
This brings to mind one of those Great Questions: If you look forward to the afterlife in order to make contact with all of those who have gone on before you, what excuse will you offer for not having contacted those you share the present space-time with? Honestly, I would like to spend a lot more time with my father and my grandparents. Chances are, they could tell me many of the same things Albert Schweitzer and Alexander Graham Bell could. The other side of the river Styx? My mother lives four miles from here and I will one day regret not having crossed the bridge between the two of us more frequently.
nachista-like the accessories. If the long gloves feel wrong (NO to black! NO NO!!) you might try some little white cotton gloves, or white netting gloves. I'm talking WRIST length. Worth a look. Shoes-good, very good. Go with the second bag-the envelope clutch. You might think about a white clutch, too. Or silver, if that's what your jewelry is. But definitely the envelope-it's classier.
If you can do a chignon with your hair I highly recommend it. Tres chic!
As I contemplate today's forum, I would like to take this opportunity to catch up with some correspondence 'leftovers' from yesterday - the things that took place behind the yummiest burger scene:
Capt Neptune, That sounds like an absolutely wonderful adventure!! Can I be a stowaway? (I'm small and could probably fit in a duffle bag) What a tremendous opportunity for you and your family. I hope you have an enjoyable trip - one that all of you will have the fondest memories of, to last a lifetime. As you sail off on your excursion, I wish you "fair winds and following seas".
PeterLake, I don't believe we have been properly introduced to your companion...
nachista, A girl needs a purse, for those "little" touch-ups that may be required throughout the evening - hair, lipstick, a bit of dental floss if there's to be food. I prefer the black glove/purse option. Someone once told me, if you can't match the color of the dress, go with black. It's classic and matches everything, in an understated way. No matter what you choose you are going to look and feel beautiful! Have a fantastic evening.
Miss Ive, I was happy to visit the website and submit a plea on your behalf. I admire your spunk and determination. I, too, am a dreamer, as so many of us are, and to help someone else achieve their dream would be sublime...you've got to have a dream, if you don't have a dream, how're gonna make a dream come true? I wish you a standing ovation on Premier Night.
I think that's everything. Now, it's back to work, while I mull over who I want to invite to dinner...and why. Have a good day, everyone.
From burgers to Socrates, I think I'm falling in love Mr. Peterman. You're in my final 5. The other 4 are a little more difficult.
But can you teach insatiable curiosity? Am insatiably curious to know the answer.
Most of the people in my life have expressed a desire for me to 'grow out of it.' Can you imagine living with someone who wakes you at three in the morning to ask, "What did your mother pack in your lunch when you were a child?"
Sometimes I picture Socrates as an over-grown 4 year old..."Why?" "Ok, but why?" "How come?" "who made it?" etc.
If you applied the socratic method to critical thinking, you'd have something like, Why do you think it's critical. Because it teaches people how to think. Do you think that's good? Well, it's better than not thinking? But does it matter what they think? Probably, but you can't monitor that. That's up to them. Why do you think I asked that question? I don't know. Maybe because critical thinking isn't as important as what they think about? But can you have one without the other? Go bother someone else, Socrates.
Mr. Peterman why is it for the 2nd time in the last few months I feel like I'm stuck in the John Cusack Film "High Fidelity" & have Jack Black yelling at me about my 5 choices to this question..... None the less I am invoking the right to change my 5 throughout the day just so I don't have nightmares tonite about Jack Black leaping over a desk yelling at me & having to look at his strangly triangle shaped eyebrows....
#1 Thomas Jefferson #2 Ronald Reagan #3catherine the Great #4 Lenin #5 Aristotle
Yes I think for the Before dinner drinks part of the Dinner Party those are the 5 I would invite. Click in later in to see who gets to served the actual appetizers, meal, dessert & of course the evening wouldn't be complete without an after dinner brandy & cigars.
Drinking Hemlock, I have a book somewhere that asks the question as to Why did Plato say to Socrates followers that he died peacefully, when Hemlock actually causes quite a painful death. Was it to show respect to Socrates? Or was it to protect his followers? I always wondered about that & what he would say about Platos choice in doing so.
My five?
Anyone under the age of eight or over the age of eighty has an open, standing invite. Anyone in the middle will be heavily interrogated at the door. A thorough shake down. Must be sure that you're not one of the mindless masses who still believes in stable answers. You can usually see it in their eyes. And in their answers. Grin.
#2 Missive
#3 Paul Newman
Still working on 4 & 5
This is a bit like that show "Dinner for 5" with Jon Favreau...only without the movie stars.
Quick question:
Anyone listen to Science Fridays on NPR (Ira Flatow)?
I love it. Always two or more highly educated people in their respective fields going at it.
It IS
It ISN'T
It most certainly IS
No, ma'am it ISN'T
I always giggle. I just want to call in some day and say (very slowly, with great annunciation) . . . . . . . . . .P-L-U-T-O. . . .
This is for math and physics nerds, who, like myself, think of everything in these sorts of terms.
Aren't questions more 'stable' than answers?
They define a void. They (very nerdy math here) provide tangible axis/boundries. Remember 'limits?'
An answer does not define anything, actually. Right? It cannot exist without the question that first defined the void into which it must 'fit.' Right?
Anyone have to take Logic in school? Anyone click on Mr. Peterman's 'goodness' link and read it? Anyone remember the 'if p+q=r, then r-p=q?' An 'answer' always falls after the equal sign. It is, by definition, a 'variable.' Right?
Anyone still reading?
Anyone ever want to talk to me again?
Time for food.
Willie Trask ~ You honor me & my basic education with your invite ~ I feel I should be screaming like Wayne & Garth "I'm not Worthy, I'm not Worthy".....
Hahaha I luff a good tangent
Nachista,
Did you just put me among the ranks with Paul Newman? Seriously blushing right now. You're too much. Very honored. Must warn you, will bring many questions to 'the table.'
Trask,
Also very honored. Must warn you, will bring armed guards, and many questions.
june Christy. Love the way she sang. You'll need some entertainment.
Oscar Wilde. Einstein. Plato. Kasparov. (You'll need some mental stimulation, since you'll probably be left out of all discussions.
Subject to change, of course.
There are just too many, can we have a dinner for 5 every Saturday night? That way you 50 weeks of 5 great dinner companions...250 guests. I'm always looking for a loophole.
Kindlee,
Thank you for being so bold and writing on my behalf. Really. I believe her reps are in Britain. I got an unbelievable response to my request yesterday (after plastering every social media known to Miss Ive), so I can only imagine what her PR people are saying today about 'those bloody Americans who think they're so entitled!' Cross fingers.
Here's a tough question:
I also got a couple bands who have volunteered to write and perform music for the film. That's tricky though, right? How do you say 'um, ass metal was really not what we were going for' when they've already put all the hours in?
Uh, tell the ass metal band that you didn't think your film was the right vehicle to showcase their amazing songwriting talents and that the tone of your film would detract from their brilliance.
Nachista,
Interesting in changing job titles in the near future? "Miss Ive's ball-gown-wearing-motorcycle-riding-tough-ass-film-producing-Bitch?"
You like? Send me your resume when you're ready. Make sure you put the above title under your 'career objectives' heading.
p.s. Can I forward you the bands' emails now and you can cc me on your responses as part of your interview?
Suz's resume Experience: Title insurance Industry 21 years (on and off), Food Service 7 years, Spa/Salon 6 years, Telephone Collections 4 months, Bellydance assistant instructor 1 year, Band Merchandise Seller 2 years, Photographer's Assistant 6 months
Missive just let 'em down gently and make sure to tell them that you will keep them in mind for future projects. We all saw how well Metallica's docu did, they'll find their niche. Oh and don't forget to tell them that they are...
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/nachista/toomuchrock.jpg
"Too much rock...for one hand!!"
I think the setting is almost as important as the guest list, but perhaps that's just me.
It would be a very casual, warm and friendly setting. Perhaps sitting around an old scarred table in a warmly lit south-side Chicago pizza parlor after all of the other customers had left, and it was already several hours past closing time. It's always helpful to be on good terms with the owner, who before he left us for the night, would put out a pot of fresh coffee, a plate of cannoli, and remind us to lock up before leaving.
Another location I would choose for this special time would be just sitting around the kitchen table, just after the last of the dishes had been cleared and put away so everybody could just relax, reminisce, and tell jokes so bad our laughter would burst out through the screen door and echo down the alley. We would be drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes (it's OK because this is set in the early 1950's and smoking wasn't dangerous back thenïŠ) and eating cashews. I would be the one sitting up on the kitchen counter and soaking it all in.
None of my honored guests would be among the living. With the exception of Socrates, who would be wearing loafers, white sox, chinos and a white tee-shirt with his cigarettes rolled up into the sleeve; their time on earth would span from the late 1800's through 1998. Socrates would be there to facilitate the conversation, to help shed light on the past
These guests would include my mother, my father, my maternal grandfather (whom I never met) and my aunt on my father's side. They are chosen because I have at last learned to listen and have so many questions.
more on the honor rollWhat would one serve at a dinner party for 5 illustrious guests ranging from Catherine the Great to Gilbert Gottfried?
Nachista my Darh-Ling Girl ~ Catherine the Great would of course have to have Cavier & Pheasant under glass, Chicaken Kiev, Borscht, Salmon, fresh cucumbers & possibly Latkes or Bliney's.
Gilbert Gottfried ~ an Oh Henry candy bar & maybe duck La'orange :)
Hey I've got some oh henrys somewhere, we may be in luck.
New band name
"3,692 Reasons Smithfield Ridges Docs Suck"
I think it could be huge.
Nachista,
Pizza?
Ignation,
I have Mark Knopfler's 'Quality Shoe' on my iPod now. Love it.
Speaking of great philosphers, this song makes me think of Cliff on the last episode of Cheers.
Sam: I keep askin' myself: what is the point to life?
Woody: Whew. That's a tough question.
Cliff: Ehh. Well, I got the answer.
Frasier: Somehow I knew you would.
Cliff: Comfortable shoes.
Frasier: Shoes?
Cliff: Yeah. If you're not wearin' comfortable shoes, life is
just chaos. I mean the greatest accomplishments in history have been
made by men wearin' accomodating shoes. Uh, Frasier, tell me, who do
you think is the greatest thinker in all mankind?
Frasier: I don't know, uh... Aristotle.
Cliff: There you go: sandals. Perhaps the most comfortable shoe
there is. You hardly even know you have them on. I mean Confucius:
thongs. Einstein: loose loafers.
The 5 for Appetizers ~ I had to think I little bit on this one but I think I would like to talk with #1 Homer, #2 Ernest Hemmingway #3 Douglas Adams #4 Plato #5 Johannes Gutenberg
I think a conversation between Adams & Plato would be an absolute must record :)
Ok, top 5 progressive dinner. 5 for cocktails, different 5 for apps, different 5 for entree, different 5 for dessert.
Robert Frost on the left because he was about rocks and roots; stars and storms; darkness; distance and how those things make us feel about ourselves and each other.
And for this:
On A Tree Fallen Across The Road
(To hear us talk)
The tree the tempest with a crash of wood
Throws down in front of us is not bar
Our passage to our journey's end for good,
But just to ask us who we think we are
Insisting always on our own way so.
She likes to halt us in our runner tracks,
And make us get down in a foot of snow
Debating what to do without an ax.
And yet she knows obstruction is in vain:
We will not be put off the final goal
We have it hidden in us to attain,
Not though we have to seize earth by the pole
And, tired of aimless circling in one place,
Steer straight off after something into space.
Robert Frost
But mainly because in a film of him watching a film of English majors discussing his work, he said: "What is that word they keep saying?"
"Frostian," he was told, "It means relating to the way you say things and it is the way academics talk to each other."
"Hmmph," said Robert Frost, "I wonder why?" Further adding to his heroic status in my mind.
On the right: Mr. Simpson, our very elderly, tall and tan pipe smoking neighbor who knew and taught one thing: "Do what you're doing when you are doing it without looking back with regret or pride and without looking forward with anticipation or fear. Be now, now," he said again and again.
He did that. Nobody else that I have known or worked alongside since, has.
To Mr. Simpson's right, my mom. Partly because they adored each other but mainly because in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary, she never failed to find something shiny and nice to cling to in every person or situation no matter how dark things got.
Case in point: The very senior Brundages, who lived behind our barn, had an attached greenhouse. Their horticulture days behind them, it was used for storage,
containing a lot of radios, radio parts and such.
Three neighborhood boys and I were up in the barn of an afternoon counting Monarch Butterflies (there were about sixty), when we noticed a kid fixing to break into the greenhouse.
I got my mom, just about the most unimpeachable witness imaginable, and a camera. We all sat and watched as Jimmy jimmied his way in, filled two gunny sacks with loot and then laid a trail of small items to someone's garage with an eye, we thought, to incriminating one of their kids.
He stashed the bags in a compost bin for later pick up and because nobody ever called the police, he was met there that evening by some dads who made him return everything.
My mother's assessment?: "He certainly was good with tools, wasn't he?"
See?
Next to Robert Frost: The late, lovable Hawaiian: Israel "Iz" Kamakawiwo'ole.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr-alr7P_qk
If you can watch and listen, his bungling of the lyrics notwithstanding, and fail to feel sunshine on your shoulders and in your heart, then I am very sorry for you indeed.
At the table's far end: My wife, not alone for her shy beauty but because she has never for one second in her entire life forgotten the topic under discussion and just on the off chance that this group were to get on and off one, she would be there to bring us back.
A funny sunny group I admit but what a dinner we would have. Maybe it is no longer morning in America but neither is it midnight and it could be just the right time for critical thinking but non-critical expression. We would be very good at that.
After thinking about this, and now that there's a little bit of a lull in my day, I've finally picked my dinner guests: 1) the Italian polymath, Leonardo da Vinci; 2) the Chinese military strategist and author of "The Art of War" (if he really did exist), Sun Tzu; 3) the 20th Century philosopher, Robert Nozick, author of (among other things) "The Examined Life"; 4) James Thurber, the humorist; and 5) the German composer (we must have a musical interlude!), Johann Sebastian Bach.
Beginning with a superb, well-aged, Scotch and hors d'oeuvres - thinking stuffed mushrooms and smoked salmon, here - just to break the ice, I would get the conversation flowing by prompting them into a discussion of Mr. Peterman's questions. One can only imagine where that would lead. All unique people from history, all with the propensity for innovation and improvisation, with an extraordinary thirst for new truths and ideas and yes, at any given point, the desire could strike go off on a tangent. Oh, the places we could go without ever leaving the room! Reading about what people think, as compared to an open discussion about what they think, are two entirely different entities...much like what takes place daily at this forum, wouldn't you say? We would then be seated at the Round Table, while more intriguing notions are raised, for the main course. I've decided to serve the best-of-the-best farm fresh beef burgers, with Portobello mushrooms as the vegetarian alternative. What wine is it that you serve with burgers, red or white? I'd probably go with red. And, to see that all their individual tastes can be satisfied, I thought a toppings bar would be ideal. After dinner, when friends from Peterman's Eye stop bye (Hey, he only said 5 "at your dinner table" - he didn't say that you, and he, couldn't show up for dessert!), we can all retire to the drawing room to continue the conversation. Coffee, Cognac, dessert - what would you think of Ambrosia trifle and chocolate truffles? - a warm fireplace, Bach playing the harpsichord (I must remember to dust that off and put new candles in the candelabra), wit, wisdom, good humor and camaraderie, until the wee hours. It would be a night to remember. But, I digress...there's an understatement. (Thank you all for indulging me in this...or putting up with me...whatever the case may be...my mind had a great time!)
Stoney,
I have a huge request. May I place a question behind one of your guest's place cards? (BTW, love that you thought about where they would sit.)
Stoney's Mom: From mother to mother, in what mischief did you indulge while young Stoney was napping near the violets? Have been wondering. Am secretly hoping she was playing loud music and dancing on the furniture. Love that she took the time for herself. So few do.
Now that some of my nonsense has been dispensed with, I thought I would attempt to address at least one serious question that Mr. Peterman posed: "Is truth absolute?"
I don't think it's possible to logically argue against the existence of absolute truth. (who brought logic into this discussion?!) To argue against anything is to establish that a truth does indeed exist. You simply cannot argue against absolute truth unless the basis of your argument is an absolute truth. If you say that truth is relative, isn't that an absolute statement? A truly relative statement is one that is not always true. When you think logically (there's that word again) a relative statement just contradicts itself.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident"..."unalienable rights"... Is this the same as absolute truths? Yes. I believe that there must be absolute truths, which need not be religiously based, that all the people in a Society must agree with and, to me, it seems apparent that our Founding Fathers thought so, too. The Rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness...all things we as citizens of the US agree to, without a doubt, no matter your religion, no matter your race, no matter what...are absolute truths.
Is every single truth absolute - ay, there's the rub. Humanists think not and far better minds than mine continue to debate...
The dinner fantasy was fun but I probably would only be able to afford lasagna and chianti. Still, it would be so interesting. I think I could easily plan thousands more dinner parties; all with different invitees, from dead relatives to dead poets, tyrants to peacemakers...but what to serve? Burgers have been done to death, methinks.
Okay. So, are we now ready for the flip side of that arguement? The one that says if there is no religion, then there are no fixed, natural laws or morality? Like I said, far better minds than mine...far, far better...
Think of the chaos not having any absolute truths brings...
It's mind boggling. Is this is why almost all of us latched on to the dinner party portion of today's forum? I'm guessing it really had nothing to do with food, as we did that in spades yesterday.
MissIve, I enjoyed your scientific approach to the problem.
"Think of the chaos not having any absolute truths brings..." Kindlee you should work at station ~ There is no Absolute Truth here. NONE whats so ever & I happen to thrive on it. It makes for much less boring work days thats for sure.
I feel as if this is what it would be like to be caught in a mobius strip!
I was thinking chaos in society. Chaos here is fun!
...and actually to say "There is no Absolute Truth here" happens to be an absolute truth...and to say that you "...thrive on it. It makes for much less boring work days thats for sure." well those are absolute truths, too...
Sorry, I'm not trying to dis you. I'm just trying to make my point about how difficult a subject this is...and Mr. Peterman knew this when he brought it up!
...and I sense that he enjoys this very much!
Ah, what five persons would I have at my dinner table to help in my eternal search for wisdom?
1. Benoit Mandelbrot
2. Albert Camus
3. William Shakespeare
4. Mohandas Gandhi
5. Sir Richard Francis Burton
(Sure wish I could have an 'alternates' list' should some of these refuse to come to my dinner table because 'it wouldn't be wise' to do so....)
It makes me think about closing my eyes,
only for a moment, and the moment's gone
All my dreams, pass before my eyes, a curiosity
Dust in the wind, all they are is dust in the wind.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind
Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky
It slips away, and all your money won't another minute buy.
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind
Dust in the wind, everything is dust in the wind.
I'll leave now. I'm sorry if I was in any way rude...and that's an absolute truth.
Doc Nolan ~ I bow to you ~ I had to look up 3 of your choices as I could not place who they were. Am wishing I could now challenage you to an old fashioned game of Trivia Pursuit. Have a feeling it would either be a short game with me still trying to get 90% of the pie pieces....
All of your people picks sound interesting. I'd like to just sit in the corner like a wee mouse and listen. Keep the champagne away from me, though, or intead of dummying up I'd be the comic relief.
Willie, did you just invite ladies from PE? You are so ASKING for a food fight.
Stoney, your Simpson sounds like an arhat-very Zen...
Missy, not ALL questions must be stable. There is the one I used always to ask my brothers to drive them to the brink of madness: WHY? But wait...
If p = q, and
If r = q, then
does p = r?
Or, as my country cousins told me one time: Brother went down to the college and took that edjication for a year. Whe he come back, everyone wanted to hear about what he learnt, and so he was gettin' questions from all sides, like "say something smart!" So, he says "well", thinking a bit, "um, pi r square!"
Well, everybody was DUMBFOUNDED, don't you know, but nobody wanted to say anything, til Little Brother just couldn't stand it and he said "why hell fire, boy-they didn't teach you nothin' down at the college! Evabody knows that pie are ROUND! CORNBREAD are square!"
Sorry about that...
Kindlee you weren't rude, I've read your posts and find them quite thought-provoking.
The 5 I chose for dinner would be be well known celebrities but people from my family & life #1 my great Uncle Vernon my dad has GREAT stories about him fought in both WWII & Korea & was a master carpenter I would just like to meet him, #2 My Maternal Great Grandfather Richard R. He was a Railroad Master in the area #3 One of my Friends Mother Beverly She always said I reminded her of the Charcter Pheobe on Friends she actually called me Pheobe, #4 My Paternal Great Grandfather he was a farmer #5 My Maternal Great Grandmother
For Dessert I would like to have #1Peter the Great #2 Ayn Rand #3 Aristole #4 Alexander the Great #5 Henry VIII
Kindlee I didn't find anything rude in your posts either, its a discussion that we are al in, your points are as valid as are anyone elses here.
The water is getting a bit too deep for me and besides, my soon to be 10 year old Grandson is going to stay with me for a couple of days so I'm gonna r u n n o f t. He's my favorite dinner guest. Have a good weekend.
Sorry for jumping aboard so late, but my brain is aching. It was hard to change gears from burgers to critical thinking, but after much consideration I have finally chosen my eclectic 5!
Pablo Picasso, Albert Einstein, Thoreau, Will Rogers, and Erma Bombeck. Philosopher, realist, whatever you choose to call them it would make for a very interesting evening. Many great choices today.
PeterLake: I am with you...my three grandsons make the best dinner guests as well. My five year old is going to be a famous diplomat someday. My middle grandson is going to be a famous athlete, and my youngest...well... not sure yet, but whatever it is I am sure he will approach it with great enthusiasm. I am headed to the gym and that is the only absolute truth that I am concerned with right now! Good night guys and dolls!
pssst, they must have gone through the warehouse again over at Primrose. Plenty o' stuff listed, including some very fetching lambskin jackets...
It would be rather pointless to examine our experiences if we didn't enjoy finding out 'new stuff'... I think that explains why folks with little curiosity don't seem to see the point in exploring and experiencing things. (We all have relatives who think that thinking is a waste of energy, don't we? It's interesting -- to me -- to see how they fill their days WITHOUT much thinking...)
For me, I thrive on 'turning over rocks' to see what's underneath, but lots of folks I know think reading and travel are 'a waste of time and money'. I draw on my existentialist rationale to simply say, 'I choose to turn over rocks; you choose not to do so'. If you decide to explore, let me know and I'll show you some great paths I've found; if you decide not to, you need do nothing.
I liked Sensei Peterman speaking about Sensei Socrates, "It wasn't long before he had these "empty vessels," as he called them, dazed, confused and doubting everything, and even worse, rejecting the gods of the state." Wow! No wonder I ended up dazed, confused and doubting -- and why I walked away from the 'faith of my fathers'. I was, am, and will always be an empty vessel, seeking to be filled. It is an idle hope, but the trip is indeed the destination!
A (very old and lame, but true) 'saying' about wisdom... 'Good judgment comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgment.' I, for one, have acquired one heck of a lot of good judgment in my life, heh, heh, heh.
ancora imparo
Clever Reads For the Cognoscente (Found in the Current Issue of Sundance Catalog):
1. Oxymoronica 2. The Book of General Ignorance 3. Plato and a Platypus Walk into a Bar: Understanding Philosphy Through Jokes 4. The Most Brilliant Thoughts of All Time 5. What Would Socrates Say? and 6. Red Herrings and White Elephants: Origins of the Phrases We Use Every Day
I suppose I could answer the actual question. For this dinner, I would invite:
DaVinci
Hemmingway
Einstein
Whitman
Byron
Although I think they would all argue, but it would be fun :D
My five at this time of year (or anytime). Boy, would this be interesting...
George Washington 1789-1797
As the United States first President he knew from the beginning that he would set the precedence of what the U.S. would become. So he lead with integrity and morals, he never overstepped the boundaries of his power and devoted his presidency to creating a country that was for the people. He also understood the importance of foreign affairs and instilled this idea, which is still believed. Also, Washington chose to only serve two terms as President, which is now the amendment for how long a President can serve.
John Adams 1789-1801
The second president of the U.S. was extremely intelligent and graduated from Harvard as a Lawyer. He knew the importance of his job and worked to make this country a great one. He continued the foreign affairs work of Washington and worked heavily on the relationship between the U.S. and France. Although Adams felt he did not accomplish enough as the President, history shows otherwise. His ideas about education in this country are still used and his hard work and honest mentality are ones to be modeled.
Thomas Jefferson 1801-1809
The third President was a man that worked all his life for the liberty of the U.S. Jefferson is known for drafting the Declaration of Independence and worked during his Presidency to make those words a reality. During his Presidency Jefferson cut the national debt by a third. Something that is unheard of today. Jefferson also continued in foreign affairs and successfully kept the U.S. out of the Napoleonic wars that plagued the U.S. Jefferson was known as a man of few spoken words, but with his pen and his power served our country in laying down the framework and documents that still lead our country.
James Madison 1809-1817
The fourth President is considered the "Father of the Constitution" and had helped to frame the Bill of Rights. During his Presidency he was forced to declare war on the British, few battles were fought. But Madison showed the courage that was needed to display to the world that the U.S. was strong and would not be pushed around. He was confident in our country and foresaw the greatness that was to come for us.
James Monroe 1817-1825
The fifth President was a man of great ambition and energy emulated it during his Presidency. He was the first President to travel around the county giving speeches and getting to know his fellow country men. During his Presidency Monroe worked on foreign affairs and established good relationships with many countries. However, he would not back down to more powerful countries and made it known that the U.S. was strong and would not be bullied.
OFF TOPIC
Mr. Peterman: Found this item from a trusted seller that may be of itnerest to you...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Edwardian-Gentleman-s-JP-Wax-Seal-Stamp_W0QQitemZ220300018367QQihZ012QQcategoryZ165618QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
As a recovering undergraduate major in ancient philosophy, may I say that if I could go back in time to Socrates' cell, I'd ask the little buggerer if he wanted club soda or 7-Up with his hemlock.
As for the give dinner guests? I'd take the captains of the 5 most heavily gold-laden Spanish galleons returning from the New World and over dinner we would figure out where they were when they sank.
FIVE dinner guests, dammit. Not GIVE dinner guests. Bloody typos.
Five dinner guest? For me, it's a no brainer: My dad, his dad, my two boys and my wife. This way, my wife would get a pretty good idea of why we are the way we are. I am sure I would learn much, probably all I really need to know.
Kindlee,
You raise some wonderful points that have long been the topic of these fun wee-hours-of-the-morning philosophical debates. The notion of any attempt to argue a point automatically embracing the notion of absolute truth (or, as I prefer to say it, absolute FACT), is a strong example of the Law of Identity.
The most basic aspect of the law of identity (the notion that A is A) is that the validity of an argument is based, not on the number of people who believe it or its political implications, but rather on the inability to escape embracing it in the attempt to refute it. If I were to contend that the universe was created by a tribe of green gremlins, you would not need to accept or even mention green gremlins in your refutation of my claims. But, if I were to claim there was no such thing as the Law of Identity, I would have already embraced the Law of Identity simply by making the claim. After all, I intended my statement to be what it is and mean what it means and not the exact opposite thereof.
As for your paragraph about the correlation between religion and the notion of mixed objective morality, there is another "flip side" to the argument as well. It has been contended that the opposite is true, that a fixed objective standard of morality ONLY exists in the ABSENCE of religion. This is based on the notion that morality and ethics can only apply to mortal beings and that any afterlife (Heaven, reincarnation, etc.) immediately dilutes the very concept of morality. Moreover, as soon as religion is connected to morality, the question is raised "Did God command it because it is good? Or is it good because God commanded it?" Much food for thought. And you already know my thoughts on food. ;-)
DPR, Thank you so much for the food for thought. If "reading maketh a full man", then, for today, I'm stuffed!
Can anybody tell me what diddy-wah-diddy means?
Olivia,
It's Icelandic for "Doo wah diddy diddy dum diddy doo"