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Yvette Kantrow: Svengali returns

Yvette Kantrow: Svengali returns Huffington Post Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Supreme Court to hear case about 'sex slave' Web site

Supreme Court to hear case about 'sex slave' Web site CNN Take a look at an interesting article we found.

High court will review 'S&M Svengali' case

High court will review 'S&M Svengali' case Boston Globe Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Yesterday's Discussion

The U.S. Postal Service is closing post offices to save money, but is this the best solution?

 

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It's okay. The Supreme Court is looking into it too.

In case you’re not up with your S&M, the highest court has decided to look into the case of a sex trafficker, known as the "S&M Svengali."

It seems that on his S&M Svengali website, he was practicing, no surprise, sadomasochism.

I’ve looked; the website isn't there anymore.

Glenn Marcus had been sentenced to nine years in prison for the sexual abuse, physical mutilation and psychological humiliation of a woman who had agreed to be photographed as his "sex slave."

The only catch was that some of the offenses occurred before the 2000 Trafficking Victims Protection Act, which was used to prosecute Marcus.

When a federal appeals court threw out the conviction, the justices agreed they would  accept the government's appeal.

The issue seems to be this:

Consent.

At issue is whether Marcus took the relationship too far and held “Jodi,” against her wishes. Prosecutors claim he manipulated and forced the woman to undergo the punishment, then write about it for the website.

“Jodi” felt like she was in hell and couldn’t escape.

The defense lawyers claimed she liked it; even signed a written agreement.

The case is U.S. v. Marcus, 08-1341, if you want to keep track.

S&M stands for two words, sadism and masochism.

They are named after two writers, Marquis De Sade and Sacher-Masoch, both European aristocrats with a lot of time on their hands.

Always a dangerous combination.

The infamous Marquis De Sade lived in 18th century France, and his writings contain all forms of sexuality which were considered socially unacceptable.

Sacher-Masoch was a 19th century Polish Baron who wrote the novel "Venus In Furs" that pioneered many of the conventions of later sadomasochism, such as the dominant mistress and willing slave role play.

Scientists have later discovered that the body produces an opiate like substance known as endorphin.

Orgasm is one thing that causes the body to release endorphins. Another is exercise. Another is pain.

According to modern practitioners, the basic S&M principles are "safe, sane, and consensual" and people are free to do whatever they want, as long as they can find somebody who wants to do it with them and have a “safe word.”

Like: "Enough already!"

Which gets us back to S&M Svengali and all sorts of First Amendment issues that our Founding Fathers couldn’t have imagined.

Then again, knowing our Founding Fathers…

I do appreciate those who are slavishly reading these daily posts. And, as you know, you are never bound to comment if you don’t wish to.

J. Peterman

 

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100 Members’ Opinions
October 15, 2009 12:24 AM
First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 zenvelo said...

The only issue here for the courts is the sub's consent. Once that is determined, any acts between consenting adults is no one else's business.

October 15, 2009 12:33 AM
293 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 rings90 said...

I ahve a feeling this is going to be an interesting discussion, I for one cannot wait to see what everyone says...

October 15, 2009 12:38 AM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

Stop it! Stop it some more!

October 15, 2009 12:42 AM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

The SCOTUS may have agreed to hear this one to provide a pleasant change of pace after they hear Jeff Skilling's appeal. I am frankly disappointed that they are trifling with either case, as I find neither worthy of writing in wet concrete about.

October 15, 2009 12:52 AM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

AND THEN THERE IS THE "WHY DO YOU KEEP HITTING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL?"...."BECAUSE IT FEELS SO GOOD WHEN i STOP"     ba dump bump (drum sound)

October 15, 2009 12:55 AM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

and then ther is the old married couple...they admit to practicing S & M....one sleeps while the other masterb........      ba dump bump (drum sound again)(denotes time to laff)

October 15, 2009 2:43 AM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Many many years and an entire life ago, I used to be quite high-tech and fluent in 1st Amendment issues regarding human sexuality. It is not a coincidence that in the movie "The People -vs- Larry Flynt" that Edward Norton looks just like me.
That having been said, I am not anybody special. Like my children's cinema hero Devereaux {the mouse with the big ears} says: "Small mouse - big dreams." My dream is that one day we as Americans will manage to get past our fixation with controlling what consenting adults do in their own homes. So the three bases that need to converge before my "liberal" agenda kicks in are:
1. consenting;
2. adults;
3. in private.
The newest hot button issue is the computer, when confronting adult issues and behavior. This is especially true where minors are concerned. MSNBC routinely has specials about sexual predators soliciting what they think are children on the net. This gives me a creepy feeling, since my daughter {peacefully sleeping as I compose this post} is only 15.

It certainly can be said that human sexuality is complicated. Peterman has correctly indicated that both orgasm and pain are triggers of the biological chemicals in the human body that make you feel good. We still cannot decide if sexual orientation is genetic, learned behavior, or some combination of the two.

Today will be fascinating......I take back all the trash talk that I said when we had topics thrown at us that were less than challenging. This is a very diverse & bright audience of virtual friends, so I will monitor your answers carefully. Part of that is professional, in the limited sense that the law talks about "contemporary community standards" in determining permissible metes & bounds. This seems to evolve ovr time.

more on the honor roll
October 15, 2009 2:47 AM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Correction: My children's cartoon mouse with oversized "Dumbo" ears is Despereaux, sorry... Back to bed for another attempt at sleep!

October 15, 2009 4:18 AM
1177 Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 JALOPKIN said...

BERT:   Ed Norton ???   That explains a lot ..............
 
 
Has seemed to me to be more like, Edward Everette Horton .......

October 15, 2009 4:32 AM
1177 Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 JALOPKIN said...

As long as the participants are of Legal Majority, and do not flaunt their idiosyncracies in public, where impressionable children might get the idea that what they are seeing is an acceptable norm (Belaying the idiotic circular argument about what is or is not, Normal) if playing in the world of phantasm and cavorting with whips, chains and midgets makes them think they're happy ... as long as they keep their Leathers clean, don't leave a mess in the parlor, and don't molest/confuse the Schnauzer, what consenting adults do in private is their own damned Business and government has a lot more to worry about than turning the Business of Restraint into Restraint of Trade .......

October 15, 2009 5:22 AM
Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-5 Julia Masi said...

Sex trafficing needs to be stopped.  This is the fastest growing crime in the world.  A slave is not a consenting adult.  A slave is a victim of abuse.  Even iIf the accused has a written document stating that his partner was consenting she should still have the right to change her mind and get out of the agreement.           

October 15, 2009 5:42 AM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Jalopkin:   I  didn't  mean  the  "Ed  Norton"  who  was  played  by  Art  Carney,  upstairs  neighbor  of  Ralph  Cramden   on  the  Jackie  Gleason  show.....lol
 
Julia  Masi:   You  make  a  good  point.  Personal  service  contracts  are  not  enforced  as  a  matter  of  law,  with  the  exception  of  "don't  compete  after  you  quit"  arrangements.   What  goes  on  in  Thailand  and  other  countries  is  disguisting,  and  not  limited  to  Southeast  Asia.   There  is  such  a  subculture  in  the  United  States,  but  police  have  no  clue  as  to  how  to  properly  identify  and  apprehend  the  underground  network.   Many  women  in  the  former  Soviet  Union  come  here,  recruited  thinking  they  will  be  waitresses  or  housekeepers,  and  instead  wind  up  in  brothels.   And  male  criminals  from  Russia  are  coming  here  as  husbands  of  women  who  are  paid   to  enter  into  pretextual  marriages.  The  permanent  U.S. visa  is  a   valuable  commodity  overseas.

October 15, 2009 8:17 AM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

just another closet door that's trying to be opened from the inside out to whip away at the chained 1st.  should be interesting for the voyeur lawyers supreme....voyeuristic simplistic. 

October 15, 2009 9:19 AM
4220 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Daniel Zev said...

Swami & Julia ~ This case is quite important because if the USSC finds in favor of mr. Svengali, then it will be quite possible to get rid of the anti-sodomy laws which still exist in some states and are still wrongly defined as sexual intercourse of both an anal and oral nature. These laws, in effect, still make it technically illegal to be a homosexual. It was not too long ago that Loving v. Virginia made it legal for interracia couples to exist, so this is long overdue.

October 15, 2009 9:53 AM
376 10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Shibbolethian said...

Bert, your post really struck me as what ought to happen, but as I think about it, some problems arise:

The problem with setting rules to govern this sort of thing - e.g., one can do it, but only above 21 and in the privacy of your home, etc - is that those are the sort of rules that tend to bend all too frequently. I couldn't vouch for anyone in particular, but I might deduce that there are some kids with similar sadomasochistic agendas that would start taking this sort of thing into their own lives if it was known that others did.

And how can you regulate sex? Put an age limit on it? Kids at ever-younger ages are doing the deed, so to speak. What happens when 'the deed' becomes something else?

And what is privacy? On your property? Where people can't see you? In your house? What if the blinds are open? Is it legal so long as people can't see you? Then what's the point of it being legal, other than having more paperwork to file through?

I really haven't the slightest clue as to how to regulate it. I figure it ought to be just like normal sex - up to the participants to judge the acceptability thereof. No, it won't solve the consent-no consent problem, but I figure humans are sufficiently good at judging these things nowadays. A case like Svengali's could just be a rape case - a matter of consent.

October 15, 2009 10:30 AM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Shibbolethian:    You  have  an  interesting  chatroom  name,  virtual  friend.   As  to  your  comments,  I  am  going  to  try  to  take  the  general  proposition  that  government  should  get  involved  only  on  an  as-needed  basis.   There  are  many  things  that  cause  me  to  turn  my  head  away,  but  nevertheless  my  value  system  isn't  necessarily better  than  yours, or  anyone  else's.   I  am  not  high-tech   on  the  Svengali  case,  but  I  think  I  understand  the  issue,   if  Daniel  Zev's  post  is  accurate.  What  I  do  know  is  that  we  have  a  limited  amount  of  resources,  especially  in  the  face  of  a  stiff  recession.   I  would  rather  have  our  cops  catching  traditional  criminals,  our  courts  giving  them  due  process,  and  our  sentencing  alternative  agencies  dealing  with  those  convicted.   Perhaps  I  am  a  Libertarian,  except  I  hate  labels.  Somebody  puts  an  inappropriate  "spin"  on  them, then  tries  to  hang  the  label  on  you  and  me. 

October 15, 2009 10:38 AM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

is s&m a form of religion? (personal belief)

October 15, 2009 10:50 AM
293 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 rings90 said...

So one of my favorite books is "The Story of O"  I don't believe everyone should live like that. But I do understand how some people may have a few different ideas than most when it comes to behind closed doors & need to act them out.  
 
For me behind closed doors, is just that. I always wonder about cases like this though because it makes wonder if the women somehow suddenly got scorned & looking for revenge. I'm pretty sure she knew what she was getting into when she signed the documents... That's why its so unsettling. If you are signing documents before you have sex... Isn't that some kind of a red flag in your mind already?...   

 

October 15, 2009 11:07 AM
4220 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Daniel Zev said...

A .pdf of the Petition for Writ of Certiorari for all the legal scholars here to study. When I find more, I'll post it.
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2009/2pet/7pet/2008-1341.pet.rep.pdf
 

October 15, 2009 11:26 AM
Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-5 Georgia said...

Because I've barely-informed opinion only -- and no experience -- of this sticky-wicket Topic, I'm not entitled to comment at length. While it and what grows from it (internet expansion; slave-trafficking; young minds' exploitation) are anathema to me, clearly that is not true of everyone.

But DANIEL ZEV makes a valid and omni-important point: The Court's decision will perforce touch on, even spill over into other constitutional questions yet unresolved in some states.

And Our Host gently implies that "The Founding Fathers," as we disingenuously (often to the point of unfairly, foolishly) view them, were as various as any collection of human beings.

October 15, 2009 11:37 AM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

...and they had wigs, and buckles on their shoes.....sound familiar?!?

October 15, 2009 11:39 AM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

When he lists things that the cause the body to release endorphins, JP left out one thing. In addition to exercise, pain and the other thing, I get an endorphin flood when a new J. Peterman shipment box arrives at my door.

October 15, 2009 11:44 AM
4026 10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 damnselfly said...

Safe*Sane*Consentual*
 
It is a mantra.
 
Always know your partner.  Never play without a safe word or sign (if for some reason a verbal cue cannot be given), Always respect the safe word. Be cognizant of the risks involved (ie if you choke the life out of someone, you may go to prison, or if you consent for someone to choke the life out of you, you may die). Be honest.
 
***As a side note consent can be tricky, as far as the legal system is concerned, if you show up an a persons doorstep ready to perform all the acts detailed in previous e-mails, if that person freaks out and calls the police, you will end up calling your mother for bail, and your lawyer will tell you "unless you have an e-mail from that day expressly stating for you to show up and perform those acts you do not have consent", and you will spend several months dealing with the legal system. As a result you will end up on an ex-girlfriends doorstep, with the plea of "No one else would understand." To which she will reply "You idiot, why didn't you listen to me? Having control means being in control..." and she will be entitled to make felony jokes at your expense for the rest of her life.

October 15, 2009 11:45 AM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

And J. Peterman gets an endorphin flood when you are happy, and order more.Ahh, the world is a better place now.     Pass the scones and tea, please.

October 15, 2009 12:05 PM
10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Kindlee said...

If exercise and "the other thing" does not sufficiently increase my endorphin release and produce the desired euphoric response, then, instead of turning to pain, I turn to chocolate!

October 15, 2009 12:08 PM
800 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Michael said...

Funny things about S&M:
 
1. It often gets confused with D&S, Dominance and Submission.  The two can happen at the same time, but are not the same thing.  A Sadist gets off by hurting someone else.  A Masochist gets off by being in pain.  A Dominant gets off by being in control. A Submissive gets off by being controlled.  I learned many odd things when my best friend in Grad School was a lesbian who sought to educate me in terms, but couldn't get over the fact that I kept running away from the parties.
 
2. In both S&M and D&M, it is the bottom (the submissive) who is in charge at all times.  When they say stop, it stops, or it becomes abuse and battery. 

October 15, 2009 12:09 PM
800 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Michael said...

dangit, that is supposed to be D&S!  Darn zombies!

October 15, 2009 12:33 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

....and wasn't it the sadist that was always telling the masochist how good he looked?  No wait, it was the sadist and the hypochondriac...

October 15, 2009 1:07 PM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

SCOTUS Chief Justice John Roberts' m.o. is to make rulings narrow and specific to the case in question. I would be surprised if their ruling in this case is broad enough to compel states to vacate their laws against sodomy (which can be broadly defined) and gay conduct

October 15, 2009 1:22 PM
4494 Com-100First-comFirst-photo Kim said...

And then there is the Folsom St Fair   http://folsomstreetfair.org
 

October 15, 2009 1:25 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

If I need a "safe word" I don't want to play.

October 15, 2009 1:52 PM
4026 10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 damnselfly said...

Park4: Well, there is the deviant psychology for you. "No" means push me further, so then "yellow" means slow down so I can wrap my mind around it, and "red" means absolutely cannot go there. Don't ask me how or why it gets hardwired that way, I just know it does...they human psyche is a vast and dark wonderland, and one never really knows what rabbit hole they are going to follow the white rabbit down...

October 15, 2009 2:56 PM
1058 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Olivia said...

The masochist says "hurt me"
The true sadist says "no"...
 
Dominance and submission is an offshoot and expansion on the concepts of S&M, far more interesting than either. The nuances of interaction which are possible in a D/s relationship far exceed the tiresome repetition of the S&M pathologies. Masochists are kinda damp and creepy, Sadists are just jerks, mostly. Seen one, seen 'em all...
While there are elements of S&M in D/s, they are subordinate to control, and it goes without saying that the sub is always in control. The gift of submission is a powerful yet fragile thing, and a careful and sensitive Domme (or Dom) understands that and can create a symphony of interaction that need not be sexual to provide a great deal of satisfaction for all participants.
I don't want to write an essay here, lest anyone think I'm teaching! *laughing*
That'll cost you, although my rates ARE reasonable. 
While black latex Domme catsuits are lots of fun (Don't forget the talcum powder! Red is good too.), that lil ol cat she has is pretty worthless. You really need a good riding crop, and a stout paddle/board of education to make your whims law-that is IF you're serious! And while everybody keeps a straight face, they are having a grand time if it's done right.
This court thing sounds like somebody didn't get it right. There should be a great deal of discussion before any activity.
I liked The Story of O too, but the guys were ultimately boring jerks. There was so much potential left *ahem* untapped...see also Eudaemon and Nurse Jones for some very imaginative extrapolations on this subject.
rings-I see you in a whole new light! lol

October 15, 2009 3:07 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

off topic:  there is a 6 year old child flying around in the skies over Denver/Fort Collins at 15,000 ft. in a home made helium filled aircraft.  it's a horrible situation.  go here, to watch on live video from fort collins:

 
 
http://www.coloradoan.com/
 
on the left, click on video feed.

October 15, 2009 3:43 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

...the balloon saga: it now seems like something Orson Welles might have come up with.

October 15, 2009 4:36 PM
10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Cyndy said...

The bad news -- apparently the balloon has landed, and the child was not aboard.

October 15, 2009 4:37 PM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Georgia: You ar not disqualified simply because the subject matter is new, or putting your thoughts to virtual paper feels invasive of your privacy. Many of us here can virtually predict the other's answers before they speak, and I for one am wondering what more objective minds think. Anonymity is a good thing, especially today. Just a thought...

Damselfly: Your thoughts about having a preagreed code word meaning "game over" are excellent. Unfortunately some of the people who dabble in this sort of thing get into drugs and booze to "loosen up," then somebody's "friend of a friend of a friend" shows up, pretty soon the situation is out of hand. I got just close enough to some of these folks through work to thank god that I decided to keep everything professional, and decline..... Some made different choices, and not all survived. Actually, and notwithstanding a big city pedigree, I have always been pretty darned fascinated by old-fashioned fooling around to ever get bored..... but that's just me.

October 15, 2009 4:47 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

do food fights count?

October 15, 2009 5:11 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


 


 


I'm with kindllee on this one!!!!!


 


 


besides


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11102200/


 


  


If "Jodi" agreed to marry someone (a contract of sorts) who was known to be violent and had been violent towards her before the marriage, and then gets the tar beaten out of her, the husband is still guilty of spouse abuse....correct?


 


 

October 15, 2009 5:14 PM
10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 Stoney said...

  
We talked about sects earlier.

October 15, 2009 5:24 PM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

Once after dinner in Boston, I went for a flaneur-like stroll among the blocks around the hotel.

I came upon an open store that sold medical equipment (new and/or sterilized) for the purposes of BDSM. Four-point restraints, Posey vests, speculums, anoscopes, rigid proctoscopes, vacuum tumescence devices, stirrups, bite blocks, electrodes for electromyography, enema apparatuses, stereotactic head stabilizers and even long steel rhinoscopic speculums.

I was with a female colleague, a study nurse, who was completely hopelessly thoroughly entertained by all of it.

October 15, 2009 5:37 PM
10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 Stoney said...

    

KSS,

And then...??
     

October 15, 2009 5:39 PM
Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-5 Georgia said...

STONEY, I love it! Only you.

PAM, yes, chocolate, chocolate, chocolate for me, too. And tell me all day that "dark chocolate is better for you," but I care not, for "better for you" isn't what i crave in chocolate, and I still, despite dark chocolate's being chic, prefer really fine milk chocolate or certain Dutch processed ones. Guess "I'm funny that way..." Can't figure how to write musical notes, lacking the special programs that do it -- so sing amongst yourselves, as they say.

STONEY, how 'bout some Nessun Dorma? Every so often I must have a transfusion of the original "Three Tenors." It was, well, I lack words.
Even if the music didn't bring tears, something about Domingo's and Pavarottii's including their pal, recovering from leukemia, on that program moves me more every time. Later ones were fine, but I love the first best. Absolutely off topic....

MISS BLUE, I may've misinterpreted your words, but my volunteer work has included Safe Homes (abused spouses and their children), and it's well documented that the abused goes through a cycle, at a certain vulnerable time in which, he/she feels responsible for the abuse; during that phase, volunteers and professionals must work hard to keep her from returning to the abuser. He's convinced her that she IS responsible, and I've heard many a one insist, while still bruised and bandaged, "He didn't mean it; he won't do it again."

How that fits in with our Topic I can't say, but I know, having worked with victims, that in certain personalities "playing at S&M" without knowing what one is really getting into might lead to abuse.

October 15, 2009 5:40 PM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Miss  Blue:   Correct.   By  the  same  token,  it  is  just  as  illegal  to  rape  a  prostitute,  her  job  status  just  makes  it  more  difficult  to  prove.

October 15, 2009 5:48 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 
 
 
Georgia....what I was trying to say is
 
 
 people do things they know are dangerous and will end badly....we can't stop them...and
 
 
 
we can't legislate everything for everyone....I'm surprised some lawyer hasn't used the 'defense' I just cited for some wife beater in court. just putting it out there.
 
 I know a few women who have entered into relationships with men who are known to have violent abusive histories and yet act like they never saw the punch coming!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
and Stoney....stop, I'm getting a visual.....aaaggghhh!
 
 
 

October 15, 2009 5:50 PM
First-com geri said...

Bert. I am with you, people should be able to do what they wish as long as they are adults andagree. I have such a hard time trying to live, have joy, keep the fasith and all of the other things in life, I can't worry about what soneone else is doing. I must also add if someone abouses me they are dead!!!!

October 15, 2009 5:54 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

I have to go wash my hands just from reading this

October 15, 2009 5:57 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 
 
 
 
 
Bert, of couse it's possible to rape( an act of violence not sex) a prostitute.....that's not the point I was making.
 
 
 
 
I think Jodi's problem was bad advice on the "contract"....should have seen a lawyer.
 
 
It should not have been open ended...perhaps a trial period of time renewable every so
 often,,,,LOL
 
 
 Maybe she got a good look at herself on film and decided her butt looked too big.
Or maybe her Boss recognized her. hahaha

October 15, 2009 6:01 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

   
 
 
 
 
 
Sorry, I'm just not feeling any sympathy for the victim....you play with fire and your are gonna get burned.

October 15, 2009 6:03 PM
Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-5 Georgia said...

I'm weary.

October 15, 2009 6:09 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 
 
 
 
 "...a federal appeals court threw out the conviction..."
 
 
 
 
 

October 15, 2009 6:18 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 
 
 
 
Roadyacht....
just what were you doing that you needed to wash your hands?

October 15, 2009 6:20 PM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

I really really think that we have contemplated as much as reasonable men and women can be expected to do on a cold damp day................
THEREFORE my suggestion is that we make our way to the club car, there are certain things that come to mind that will bring me great satisfaction.....for now I will settle for a cognac, or perhaps a vodka martini with several stuffed olives...someone delightful recommended the latter to me.

October 15, 2009 6:25 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 
 
 
 
 Bert
a Belvedere Martini with  3 blue cheese stuffed olives please....

October 15, 2009 6:27 PM
First-com geri said...

Bert drink the martini and hug the person who suggested it

October 15, 2009 6:32 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

Miss Blue~ I was the one putting the bleu cheese int those olives,and some roasted garlic into the other ones,and rolling the anchovies aroung the capers for the bloody marys. And,of course,reading these posts over the sepiatrain's bartender's shoulder....he never cracked a smile....he has seen it all,you know.....

October 15, 2009 6:32 PM
4080 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Miss  Blue:   Ply  me  with  Belvedere  Martinis,  take  unfair  advantage  of  me.....lol
                  Wait,  my  mistake,  YOU  wanted  table  service......
 

October 15, 2009 6:43 PM
10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Shandonista said...


Stoney, bert, RoadYacht, Miss Blue, Park4,
 
I am soooo there with you tonight.  It's been a good day, cool and rainy and just right for the martinis.  And to celebrate together, as if we needed an extra reason, the boy in Colorado who was suspected of being in the homemade balloon is safe at home!!!
 
xoxox to everyone here,
 
shandy

October 15, 2009 6:49 PM
4026 10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 damnselfly said...

Bert: my litmus test is  if I or the person I am with "needs" a drink to loosen up to perform, it is something that we shouldn't be doing. period.

October 15, 2009 6:56 PM
4494 Com-100First-comFirst-photo Kim said...

One more street fair in San Francisco (I had never heard of it but my son said, "If you really want to gross them out tell them about Dore Alley." 
 
http://sfist.com/2009/07/26/pics_from_up_your_alley_dore_alley.php
 
oh  my

October 15, 2009 7:15 PM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

Just a reminder to those tempted to engage in some of the more 'esoteric' forms of real life S & M 'play': (1) one needs to KNOW a lot about human physiology and medicine to avoid some really horrible possibilties; (2) some folks attracted to the lifestyle have some horrendous demons locked away in their closets (sometimes involving very abusive childhoods); (3) the transmission of disease is an everpresent risk.  (Among those many don't think of is hepatitis C, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_C )  .   The most dangerous thing in many S & M scenarios, especially in organized groups, is IGNORANCE.  Examples: fireplay (involving the use of alcohol) is safe IF a sufficiently dilute form of rubbing alcohol is used; if too high a concentration is substituted one is going to inflict/suffer second and even third degree burns!  The dangers of 'breath play' go without saying: it's a short trip from play to a morgue, given the brain's oxygen requirements.  USUALLY (but not always) a fair number of folks involved in S & M play groups are in the medical field (no, I don't know why...) and of them there's usually one or two who are EMTs.  It's best to learn slowly, read a lot, and be extremely cautious.  After a brief flirtation with all this, I decided that even if one has fantasies involving S & M, it's best to leave one's fantasies right there.  The risk/reward ratio is way out of line!  That said, I feel the same way about multiple tank scuba diving, mountain climbing, parachuting, flying ultra-lights, and several other high-risk activities that thousands of people do every day...  I'm just a coward -- but I'm a healthy and alive one....  (LAST TIME: Please be careful folks -- even in the privacy of your own bedrooms!)

October 15, 2009 7:18 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


natural selection at work?

October 15, 2009 7:19 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 
 
 
oh,almost forgot.......xoxoxo
 
Right back at ya, Shandy!

October 15, 2009 7:25 PM
4494 Com-100First-comFirst-photo Kim said...

So, glad the boy was found!

October 15, 2009 7:31 PM
Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-5 Julia Masi said...

I'm happy that boy in the homemade balloon is safe and sound.  Georgia, you and I seem to share similar volunteer experiences.  And to bing it back to fashion, Mr.Peterson, I reserve the right to  don the dominatrix heels for charity Stilleto Runs to stop child trafficing.  

October 15, 2009 7:38 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

Yes, shandonista, a hug back to you too, the boy was hiding in the attic.  Which is where I'd be if I were six and had let go Dad's balloon.  I'm so glad he's safe.  this is one for Ripley's isn't it.
 
As far as the rest of this stuff, the S&M fun stuff, one:  damselfly, don't misunderstand, I am aware and I fully understand the usage of safe words, and it's a good idea to have them, the difference between life and death sometimes.  I'm just saying that I prefer to have a partner who knows where my boundaries are, and I, his -- which thus far has worked out just fine for me with my almost 40 year marriage.  So I say if I have to have safe words, I don't want to play, and I don't.  And I won't.  It's a walk on the very dark side of the soul and the body and it's not my cuppa.
 
Which means there's more whips and chains and erotica for you adventurous types to purchase and enjoy.
 
Georgia:  I'm weary, too.  I don't know if I'm similarly weary to you, but I suspect so. 
 
On the up side, tomorrow's Friday and that means a fish or food topic, doesn't it?

October 15, 2009 7:41 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

the mind pictures of leather clad hoods and all....at this point,with all the warnings of physical harm and germs and worse from you quasi authorities , why, I am afraid to put on rental bowling shoes....they might be too tight ,and I wont be able to ask for bigger ones without getting a beating...martini anyone?

October 15, 2009 7:42 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

That's a good one, Miss Blue.  "Natural selection at work?" It just might be.  At any rate, we can hope.
 
 

October 15, 2009 7:45 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

Oh kim...
 
They forgot to wear flowers in their hair.

October 15, 2009 7:50 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

The safe words in our marriage....


 


 


"American Express"


 


 


 


I don't know about stilettos, black cat suits (or red, Miss Olivia) or leather hoods....


I think I'll be pretty "hot" in my new Peterman Neo-Edwardian Jacket!

October 15, 2009 7:54 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

American Express.
 
I love it. 
Those are very good words, Miss Blue.
 
And the jacket? you will look marvelous, no whip required.

October 15, 2009 7:58 PM
3001 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

   
 
 
 
my  cobalt blue velvet jeans, Black Patent flats, a crisp white shirt....and my diamond earrings....maybe just a riding crop( hahah)

October 15, 2009 8:00 PM
Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-5 Julia Masi said...

You could use the whip as a belt.

October 15, 2009 8:12 PM
4494 Com-100First-comFirst-photo Kim said...

Park4:  Well, they didn't post all the pictures.  Maybe they wore flowers somewhere.  or maybe they are a flower wearing group.

October 15, 2009 8:18 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

Just remember to stop and smell the flowers....Mom always says that

October 15, 2009 8:20 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

But I do not think Mom saw those pictures...she would have given me such a smack,no "safeword" would have stopped that beating

October 15, 2009 8:38 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

If I make anyone laff hard enough that their drink gets spilled, I will replace it with fresh one,adouble even.

October 15, 2009 8:38 PM
4494 Com-100First-comFirst-photo Kim said...

I meant are not a flower wearing group.. oh, you knew what i meant.

October 15, 2009 9:02 PM
141 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Peter Lake said...

There already is too much violence in THE world. It isn't welcome in MY world.  

It only takes that special second look, a gentle touch, or the hint of a whisper from a gentle heart that can only be heard by yours to ignite such passion as to strip away the cloak of harshness from the outside world and make it hide from you.... at least for a while.

 

Besides..... it's only fun until someone pokes their eye out.

peace out


October 15, 2009 9:12 PM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

Stoney:

Touche!

And then...and then...I realized that I am pretty plain vanilla after all.

There was a British cartoonist, whose name I forget at this moment, whose many fine collections included "The Impending Gleam."

One of his cartoons is captioned: ROWENA PINES FOR RISKY AMOUR......BUT SETTLES FOR STU.

October 15, 2009 9:22 PM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

Taking a cue from Doc, the deadly troika of HIV, HCV and HBV are always lurking as collateral damage from risky amour. Ironically, HIV is the most difficult of all to transmit.

HBV is the easiest of all to pass. It is a DNA virus, and can persist for quite some time wherever it finds itself outside the body.

HCV and HIV are RNA viruses, extremely short-lived and unstable on surfaces. HCV is impossible to transmit without a blood inoculum transfer. A healthcare worker who gets a deep needlestick injury from a needle contaminated with HCV-infected blood has a 1-2% chance of seroconverting.

There are other horrible viruses that abound in the US and are easily transferred: HTLV-III, HHV-6, XMLF, TTV, and the farther-down-the-alphabet hepatitides.

Remarkably, an efavirenz-based cocktail taken immediately pre- or post-HIV exposure is about 95% effective at preventing transmission. I keep an emergency dose of that handy because I work with HIV patients, and because it must be taken no more than 2 hours after exposure.

October 15, 2009 10:14 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

ooooh....I am even MORE worried about those bowling shoes now!!!!!!!

October 15, 2009 10:15 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

YIKES!!! those free umbrellas have been touched by possibly unwashed hands......

October 15, 2009 10:16 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

OOOH, and those white bike seats......eeeewwwwyyyyooouuuu

October 15, 2009 10:17 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

um, I may have had too many ....

October 15, 2009 10:34 PM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

For more on HBV (hepatitus B) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_B_virus  . The good news is that there's a vaccine for HBV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_B_vaccine  .  The bad news (as with most vaccines) is that the protection is partial (i.e. it reduces your risk but not to zero). -----    Yep, Hepatitus C transmittal involves "a blood inoculum transfer", but some types of BDSM 'play' (known as 'blood play') involve precisely these risks.... Here's a fairly good (and plain English) discussion of 'blood play': http://www.the-night.net/blood/safety.htm   (Incidentally, I'm NOT a medical professional -- just a voracious reader and an insatiably curious person who has a very varied collection of acquaintances, friends, and contacts.  Check and double check everything I say -- please.)  I've known one person (a very straight nurse) who came down with hepatitus C at work and it came very near to killing her (and she was permanently disabled).  I've known some 'kinky folks' who do things that persuade me they have a suicidal bent.  And I have a penchant for attracting manic-depressives of the opposite sex, as well as nice folks who tell chilling stories of their childhoods.  (And I'm NOT a psychotherapist either; I just listen and care... it all spills out).   My point is that when you get really close to most people it can be a very scary ride -- and it's best to remember the primary rule is always self-preservation... then lending a hand when one can (but carefully!)

October 15, 2009 10:41 PM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

A bit off topic, but I wish that kids today were taught the old-fashioned distinctions: kissing, deep kissing, necking, light petting, heavy petting, 'dry humping', and 'going all the way'.  Most of these forms of sex were pretty safe (and frankly satisfying!).  Today it's all binary: sex=intercourse; no sex=abstinence.  And we all know the odds of teens (or adults) staying celibate.  (Yeah, it's really low!).  Count me as one of those people who thinks porn is great for everyone from puberty on up (except for the actors of course!).  Zero risk of bad stuff happening!  If folks would stick to porn (or monogamy) we'd all be a healthier bunch of humans....  and I mean that very literally!

October 15, 2009 10:42 PM
800 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Michael said...

REALLY off-topic.  Does anybody else have trouble ironing the sleeves of a JP shirt?

October 15, 2009 10:45 PM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

Reading my posts above, I sound so clinical.... sorry.  Sex is a great thing, but just like fine dining it can be dangerous.  I don't eat fugu, and if I see rats running across the floor of a restaurant I don't dine there no matter how intriguing the menu...  get my drift?

October 15, 2009 10:59 PM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

Ahem...it's hepatitis. If we're going to talk about it, we need to spell it correctly.

HBV vaccine has been available for 25 years, and has long been mandatory in childhood. With current adjuvants, the vaccine only rarely fails. As common sense dictates, vaccine efficacy is strictly parallel to spontaneous eradication rates (which is why no definitive HIV vaccine will ever be developed, and why investigational HCV vaccines have, and will always have, limited efficacy.

I am to hepatology as Colonel Sanders is to fried chicken. I do only one thing, but I do it very well.

October 15, 2009 11:01 PM
4494 Com-100First-comFirst-photo Kim said...

Michael:  No... ask a friend who is good at ironing.  Or I could vidoe my 91 year old mom giving me a lesson on ironing.

October 15, 2009 11:05 PM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

If you are unlucky enough to have HCV but lucky enough to have genotype 2 or genotype 3, likelihood of cure with current antiviral regimens exceeds 90 per cent.

If you have genotype 1, antiviral therapy succeeds up to 70 per cent of the time.

Treatment and eradication of HCV in no way confers protection against subsequent re-infection, and I have really had patients dumb enough to out and re-infect themselves after sustained virologic response from 48-72 weeks of antiviral therapy.

October 15, 2009 11:10 PM
800 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Michael said...

Kim: I am always defeated by the gathered cuffs! 
 
 
CURSES!!!

October 15, 2009 11:13 PM
1014 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1 karma swim swami said...

Way away from subject and on an upbeat note, I got my Peterman brown moleskin three-quarter length coat by UPS this evening.

It is beautiful and becoming. Now I can always look good even if I happen not to feel good. I fully anticipate it attracting the attention of the opposite sex. When I wear it in my aging BMW that was just repainted, I think I'll look distinguished.

October 15, 2009 11:41 PM
1177 Com-100Com-300Com-500First-comHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 JALOPKIN said...

KINDLEE:  I'm with you on the Chocolate !!! Great Choice, and besides, it will make your hips swell too .......
 
 
GERI:  I like your Attitude ....... 

October 16, 2009 12:56 AM
4494 Com-100First-comFirst-photo Kim said...

Michael:  well if you are near San Francisco I could give you a demonstration  but, it is hard to teach someone how to iron in words

October 16, 2009 4:37 PM
4121 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 PARK4 said...

...kind of like explaining how to tie a shoe.
 
Michael:  send it to a good laundry and let them do it.  That's my answer to ironing everything.

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Honor Roll


Many many years and an entire life ago, I used to be quite high-tech and fluent ...

-Bert

Oct. 15, 2009 2:43 AM

read full opinion


Poll

In the world of S&M would you rather be?

  • S S 6%
  • M M 6%
  • Both Both 15%
  • Neither Neither 64%
  • Other, remember this is anonymous Other, remember this is anonymous 9%

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