Capital Confusion

Mr.P, you didn't mention Esperanto, our all time favorite for simplification. We simply don't use it.Simple.

Different  THAN ... should be, Different From .......
 
Less  when it should be, Fewer .......
 
Adding  an  "S"  when it is not needed ... like, Beers ... Deers ... Pairs ... and a few others ...
 
Seems nobody took 6th. Grade English ....... or 9th. Grade Science .......

The plural of "you" is not "youse" -- drives me crazy when it gets "yoused".

isn't the plural of you supposed to be ya'll?

Spanish solves the second person plural problem elegantly: for formal relationships, usted and ustedes, and for less formal ones, tu and vosotros.  English USED to have similar distinctions.  http://fff.fathom.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7795
(Nominative -- Objective -- "Conjunctive" Possessive -- "Disjunctive" Possessive [the latter two are the possessive forms according to whether they are attached like adjectives or are stand-alone predicates])

I -- me -- my -- mine
You -- you -- your -- yours
He -- him -- his -- his
She -- her -- her -- hers
It -- it -- its -- its
We -- us -- our -- ours
You -- you -- your -- yours
They -- them -- their -- theirs

Converted into Elizabethan/Jacobean English, one has:

I -- me -- my -- mine
Thou -- thee -- thy -- thine
He -- him -- his -- his
She -- her -- her -- hers
It -- it -- its -- its
We -- us -- our -- ours
Ye -- you -- your -- yours
They -- them -- their -- theirs

It is, however, important to note that the forms of "to be" need to correspond to the pronoun.

I am / you are / he/she/it is
We are / you are / they are

I was / you were / he/she/it was
We were / you were / they were

In E/J English, this becomes:

I am / thou art / he/she/it is
We are / ye are / they are

I was / thou wast / he/she/it was
We were / ye were / they were

Way too complicated for me.... I'm going to stick with you and ya'll

At least I've given up my New Jersey habit: you and 'you guys'.

DOC NOLAN:   Resounding Applause for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   What a refreshing display and marvelously keen Lesson !!!
 
GOOD ON YOU, Sir !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if anyone will refer today to 'capitol' letters?  Just wondering....

I believe 'capitol' letters are missive from one's congressman (paid for at taxpayer expense), right?

acceptance.....the worst in structural grammer.  not a strong point.  some do manage to succeed in understanding the concept of capitalism.  having patience and not being a patient.  stay in the black, don't get red when faced with success.  provide jobs, hire a secretary and bet on secretariat. 
 

If you can count them, they are fewer. If you can't, one uses less.
Fewer dollars, less money...
I grew up in a house full of teachers, and we got away with nothing, nothing! Aint was cause for uproar, and my poor grandmother, who taught 4th grade for decades, would've gone right round the bend if someone was impertinent enough to axe her a question. I'm glad she passed on before that became a noxious habit...
We need an Academy of English, to at least fulminate against the degradation of our communication skills.
 
A capital idea!

  
Using nouns as verbs: "Our news team is efforting to bring you the details;" "He is off parenting with the boys."

People used to take more time to point out to me all of the errors they spotted in what I sent them until it was made clear that I do not consider myself a writer when I do that any more than I consider myself a speaker when words come out of my mouth.

Writers have tools and the will to use them. They probably do several other things unknown to me like sitting down, re-reading, correcting and editing.

I just, sometimes, see or remember something warm or something cool and can't wait to tell you about it.

Like this: A senior lady, who walks past our house, caught me outside and thought to ask if I knew whether they had come up with a "heinie vaccine?" (H1N1)

Chatting a bit, she went on to tell of meeting a person with Asperger's syndrome.

"You know how they are, very low self-esteem, self-contempt even..."

Stoney turning, Jack Benny-like, toward the camera that is the Eye, dryly observes:
"Not... in every case."

Doc Nolan,

"You guys," has become waitressese for any number of persons greater than one. A table with Mother Teresa, Indira Ghandi and Mary Magdalene would be addressed: "I'm Megan, I'll be your server-how you guys doin' tonight?"

some perfect the common sentence )meaningful linguistic unit(, yet lack common sense (physical faculty) to acquire some common cents(common currency subunit).  just sayings, it's all good.  whatever floats yer boat. 
 
that one's for you bubba...meow.....now when do you need that plane ticket to come home and visit mom?
 
stoney...what are we having today?......you eating with me? 

Stoney ~ Thanks for the biggest laugh I've had all week :) 
 
I'm sticking with Ya'all & All Ya'All as the plural  ~ I think we already have discussd that though on another day.
 
The American English langauge confuses me, I took a basic english course in High School & when the exchange student form Thialand could explain the rules of Engliish better than the teacher could, well I just pretty much gave it up & talk & write however I feel. I still have no idea where a semicolon actually goes & I have noticed I really don't care.  Maybe that's why I haven't found a job yet not there's not any semicolons on my Resume... (should Resume be capitolized?) 
 
The I before E thing except after a C and where adjectives actually should be in a sentence structure..confounds me daily.
 
No wonder people use Axe & other unspellable & non existance words to speak & write, they can just make up their own rules...
 
 
 
 

Semi-colons are cool... use them in place of conjunctions!  "The Bedouins  came into sight; they camped just past the furthest palm."  In case it isn't obvious, I grossly overuse all types of punctuation, twisting it to break my convoluted thinking into smaller bites that (sometimes) make sense.  I'm encouraged when I read Thomas Carlyle and realize I'm small fry when it comes to baroque (Churrigueresque!) convolutions... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churrigueresque

Back when I was young and hopeful, my best friend (and lifelong reporter and editor) told me I was a much better proof-reader than writer.  I met my match when I tried out for an open position with The Hartford Courant, finishing second out of three applicants.  (I deserved to fail, though -- in fairness to myself -- I'd been living in Spain the year previous and my English was a bit rusty.)  I often wonder what a career as a copy editor would have entailed.  As it turned out, a year later I was in a VW Rabbit, heading for the sunny South, on a trail that would lead to where I am now, whereever that is.... My youngest brother has a saying at the bottom of each email: 'Life is a trail, not a camp.' Amen!

Yes, we so should learn to talk more better,or is that more betterer..I be's havin such a fun time writen' readin' for all y'alls

Perfection...I admit I am guilty of trying to attain it, of being obsessed over it, especially in my writing....then, I feel guilty when I fall short of that goal...then, I don't write, which makes me feel guilty again! I often need to remind myself that to be without blemish is to be without character.

I've always enjoyed James Thurber. During his years at the New Yorker, he was constantly at odds with Harold Ross, the editor, over such things as the use of commas. As he wrote, in "The Years with Ross," there was one particular dispute over the phrase "the red, white, and blue." Thurber felt it should be written "red white and blue" because "....All those commas make the flag seemed rained on. They give it a furled look...Leave them out, and Old Glory is flung to the breeze, as it should be...."

Another of my favorite ‘rule breakers' is the poet e. e. cummings.

since feeling is first

since feeling is first
who pays any attention
to the syntax of things
will never wholly kiss you;

wholly to be a fool
while Spring is in the world

my blood approves,
and kisses are a far better fate
than wisdom
lady i swear by all flowers. Don't cry
- the best gesture of my brain is less than
your eyelids' flutter which says

we are for each other; then
laugh, leaning back in my arms
for life's not a paragraph

And death i think is no parenthesis

e.e. cummings
 my fav
     2 

<commas, commas, commas, in black only. love commas in black.> 
> ruffles my feathers to see red combined with a comma.<
 
 

Stoney - I add to rings90's thanks for the laugh.  Having that common memory with you all is nearly as much fun as the silly things that my husband and I have laughed about for decades.
 
Kindlee - what a lovely poem.  I was not familiar with that one. 
 
 

Aposiopesis...

please be careful with the apostrophe- it's "y'all" not "ya'll". it is a contraction of "you all" not a contraction of "ya all".

Jalopkin, how do you express more than one pair of pants? and "beer" is strictly singular, not ambiguous like "deer".

but what peeves me most is "your" instead of "you're".

(oh, and lots of people don't capitalize on the internet...)

Michael, Good morning. I believe all friendly correspondence should begin with a salutation.Some time back,there was circulated an email that contained spelling errors so gross as to make it almost unreadable;except that it was indeed understandable.  I believe it was UCLA, or Cornell Univ. speech recognition class,that had originated it as part of a study. If you have not seen it, perhaps one of us can forward it to you

This is going to be another Good Day on The Eye !!!   What a delight ....... All contributions, so far, have been sterling ... and the day is just begun ... (I know some of you start a lot earlier, so, my sincerest condolences .......)

RoadYacht: Was that the one where only the first and last letters were right for each word?

Michael,good afternoon. Yes,sir, I believe so. I found that to be a very interesting,and revealing article,and in light of the use of texting,and twitering,an understandable outcome. I confess, I have never twited(?),at least in the current usage of the word.   :-)

ZENVELO:  1 Pair of Pants, 2 Pair of Pants, 143,000 Pair of Pants ....... Pants is already pural by the presence of the "S" ... Pantalone, a sack to pull over your leg, like Chaps, as a shield against the wind and cold ... Got two Legs ??? Two Sacks ???  Pantalones .......
 
English is NOT a Romance Language ... it is a Slavic Language, and it has purloined and adopted words from almost  every other Language that has ever been spoken upon the earth, since God destroyed the Tower of Babylon and confounded the people in their speech and understand ...  I you have on a PAIR of Pants, you have two Pantalone(s) ...
 
And BEER seems, "Strictly Singular" because English has not been taught, Competently, in American Schools for over forty years, largely because we have been passing out Teaching Certificates to persons devastatingly unqualified to have them, and who got them only because they help fill an E.E.O.C. Agenda ... So we hear people regularly say things like, "I only had two Beers ..." or "We went and had some Beers" and other Low-Brow declarations, because we have not been taught how to speak properly ... Probably because we wasted so much time with the uselessly inane DIAGRAMMING !!! 
 
'I had only two Bottles/Cans/Mugs/Glasses/Pitchers of Beer' ... The Quantification creating the (Understood)Plural is in any number higher that, One ...
 
'We had some Beer'   'We had Beer'   WE, being a Plural/Collective is the Quantification ... What is the Object ???  Beer ....... Same thing holds true for Deer, Cattle, Sheep ... Horse, and most other things that end with a Vowel, particularly an "E" require the addition of an "S" to pluralize ... Cattle being the one exception,  as it is rooted in the Middle English, CATEL(KATIL in French) ... and the spelling was probably altered about the same time G. Washington decided to seperate the 'mer kin's more from the British by changing the spelling of the word, LAFF ...
 
All of the linguistic thievery, idiomatic influences, and of course Accents ... have made English the most difficult Language to learn, and support the proposition that if one can learn to speak English properly, he can learn any, other Language ... It is best to go back and study the Ancient forms of any Language, to see where/how it has evolved, and why ... that will give one the ability to speak properly any Language he chooses, without the idiotic restrictions of Colloquy and Political Correctitude ... Because something has become, Accepted ... does NOT at all mean that it is Proper/Correct ... The "Rules" that govern speaking, have most often been arbitrarily changed, to allow for, "Acceptable" in order to cover or excuse one's own limitations or incompetence ... Sorta like Congress, No ???

yup,sorta...

However, to whom do we ascribe the authority to accept new words,if not the fourth estate?

Hwaet we Gar-Dena  in gear-dagum
(th)eod-cynga (th)rym gefrunon,
hu (TH)a ae(th)elingas ellen fremedon.
 
-Beowulf
 
(th)= soft th
(TH)= hard th

Of the warrior kings,we have learned...                Thanks to Google

Boy, there are places where my fingers never even touched the keys, as I read again what I wrote, looking for flaws ... not that I am a fast Typist cuz I'm not ... I type only 45 wpm with three fingers ... thats fifteen words per finger ....... unfortunately, I think faster than I can type ... But, I'll bet I'll do better when I can trade off this old Nagasaki 286 ... At least I hope so .......

I can erase 200 words per minute, if they're small ones

Language is fluid.  The 'correct' use of words or construction is a moving target.  Lots of folks rail against ending a sentence with a preposition but this has been accepted by most linguistic experts for several hundred years.  Researching the history and ancient roots isn't necessary to be able to speak or write a language properly.  Reading and writing it is. 
 
 

Does anyone here remember the old advertising slogan "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should" and the resulting controversy over its incorrect grammar?

In response to that particular ad, Ogden Nash ran the following poem in The New Yorker...

Oafishness Sells Good, Like an Advertisement Should

"I guess it is farewell to grammatical compunction,

I guess a preposition is the same as a conjunction,

I guess an adjective is the same as an adverb,

And "to parse" is a bad verb.

Blow, blow, thou winter wind,

Thou art not that unkind

Like man's ingratitude to his ancestors who left him the English language for an inheritance;

This is a chromium world in which even the Copley Plazas and the Blackstones and the Book Cadillacs are simplified into Sheratons.

I guess our ancient speech has gone so flat that we have to spike it;

Like the hart panteth for the water brooks I pant for a revival of Shakespear's ‘Like You Like It.'

I can see the tense draftees relax and purr

When the sergeant barks, "Like you were."

- And don't try to tell me that our well has been defiled by immigration;

Like goes Madison Avenue, like goes the nation."

These days, does anyone ever get upset over spelling or grammatical errors in the news, on television, and in advertising?

Creative punctuation lets all revolt
 
by the way I heard that if your name is Dave you get a free entree at Famous Daves bbq restaurants on August 30th if your middle name is dave you get 1/2 off

tis' why i like math.  simple.  1+1=2....etc......done. 
 
if i had a hundred bottles of beer on the wall, do all the beers taste the same?

Kindlee:   I  still  get  upset  when  flagrant  spelling/grammar/syntax  rules  are  broken  in  the  media.   Don't  even  get  me  started  regarding  the  recording  &  motion  picture  industries.  My kid  is  no  genius,  but  neither  is  she  incapable  of  learning.  A  week  rarely  goes  by  that  I  do  not  have  to  correct  her,  when she  says  something  like  "Me  and  Samantha  are  going  down  to  the  recreation  center."   OUCH!   And  gee  whiz,  doesn't  the  sergeant  still  bark  "AS  you were?"   The  dreaded  word  "like"  seems  to  begin  every  other  sentence  that  teenagers  cobble  together.  Try  listening  to  their  music.   It  is  an  unlikely  union  of  eubonics,  rap,  and  hip  hop.....plus  of  course  profanity,  violence,  and  disrespect  for  women.  I  could  go  on  and  on.....

As Stoney brought up above, another noun used as a verb that better not ever get the okey dokey from the folks at Webster's:  gifting.   Which is guess comes from "to gift."
Gah.  No.  Bad. 
 
We decided to gift him a book.
 
Oh please!  Couldn't you simply decide to give him a book as a gift?  Or skip the gift altogether to avoid saying gifting in the first place?  Ha-ha-ha.
 
 
Maybe this came about because some call gifts "presents" and while you give someone a gift you might present someone with a present, although I think that technically speaking, give and present are not synonymous.
 
Oh yes we have no bananas, and English ain't easy, that's the truth.

Second line in my comment Error Alert.  I think I meant to say I guess rather than is guess but honestly I've forgotten already and so should you...

I have a question:  Is "disprespect" now accepted as a verb, as in "She disrespected me."  Or is that still street usage (I hope).

cuukoo:  how do we know for sure that one and one is two?  <smile>  And why isn't Pi finite?
 
Curious and annoying friend who couldn't do a simple algebra problem if her life depended on it -- wants to know...
 
 

Today I am but a worm.  

I am so not worthy of inclusion in the topic of proper grammar or correct usage........ nor should I be allowed entry into those hallowed halls where perfect grammar is the price of admission. I can only stand outside, looking in and shivering in the rain while all the grammar masters and potentates of punctuation sit in front of a nice warm, crackling fireplace with top-shelf drinks in their hands as they exchange mechanically perfect pleasantries.

I'm probably just carrying a chip on my shoulder from the days of my misguided youth when I'd be looking out the window and daydreaming instead of paying close attention to Sister Mary Somebody who would be standing in front of the class having the children chant in unison "I before e except after c" or some other life-defining rule that would become mission critical in determining if someone's ideas, hopes, wishes and dreams deserved to be listened to.

After all, worthiness of being able to verbalize a complete sentence / thought without being stopped and corrected ought to be based on perfect form and delivery, not on content or the passion that fuels it.

Boy-oh-boy do I sound bitter today. Sorry..... I'll just blame it on not seeing the sun for the third straight day. I'm ready to bite my own foot off to escape and find it somewhere; assuming of course that it actually is shining somewhere. I guess I'd better not move to northern Alaska where their nights are so long.

I really do have a lot of respect and admiration of those for whom punctuation, capitalization and correct usage mean so much. I admire the effort they put forth to learn these things, and even more so, their dedication to consistently apply them.

What gets my knickers in a twist is when this hard earned knowledge and dedication to mechanically perfect speech becomes justification in and of itself, to interrupt someone who is speaking, someone who at that moment is only asking to have their thoughts and ideas really heard, and correct them.

Talk about pricking someone's feelings and letting all of the helium out. And it's often just for the sake of needing to be correct or because one of your precious pet peeves has been violated.

This has happened to me and I know I don't like it. Even worse, I caught myself correcting one of my sons once when he was confiding something important to me. I'll never forget the quick spark of hurt that I saw in his eyes that asked "can't you just listen to me".

I think I'm just digging myself deeper into a hole so I'll put my shovel down..... shortly.

Unless you're teaching a classroom full of eager students, it may be wise to resist the urge to demonstrate your mechanical mastery of the language. Otherwise, you may be creating a bigger barrier to the communication process.

If after listening you still don't understand what is being said, try asking for clarification instead of pointing out a mistake. Everybody gets to hold on to their self esteem and dignity when you really lend an ear.

I'm probably just rationalizing some of my bad habits..... but sometimes the emphasis on proper grammar reminds me of men's neck ties. They once served the purpose of having something handy with which to wipe your hands on while eating. Now they are just for show.

I suppose it all depends upon one's true intentions. Do you correct someone's grammar because you wish to help them improve themselves? Or do you do it because it makes you feel better.

Meanwhile, I think I'm gonna paint my glass house.

Peace out to all of yous and yours........

Hey..... don't blame me..... dis box down here axed me what I thought and it's doin' it again.

PeterLake, that was good.  And as far as being sun-deprived and out of sorts (hypens belong in there), I'm with you.  It's gone elsewhere in our neighborhoods, or so it seems.  They promised today was going to be sunny, and when I woke I saw the same dirty, sooty looking clouds you're looking at.
 
There's no joy in Mudville, today.

Does All The Beer Taste The Same ???  Syntax has NOTHING to do with Las Vegas ...
 
 
... and there is one that I forgot, that is most irritating ... the A L ending on a work means. Like or As ...   It is not LIKE a Mathematic study, it IS a study in/with/about Mathematics ...  NOT a study like with Mathematics ... ie: Mathematical
 
Same holds true for every other Descriptive/Declarative Nouns ....... Is it a Geographic Study, or is it LIKE a Geographic Study ???  ie: Geographical ...  Why aren't we reading National Geographical ???
 
And, no intents offended, but why MUST everything be, "Fluid" when it becomes inconvenient or impossible to do/say/understand it correctly ???
 
Every time man has taken liberties with Absolutes, we have gotten into or created trouble, somewhere ... Case in Point, the U.S. Constitution ... Every time someone expresses a Personal Opinion about what some segment of the Constitution SHOULD say, it gets fouled up ... Are we to believe that the Good Sense and Decent Values upon which our Founders (a group of Whores and Thieves pooped out of King George's Prisons) built this country, according to the tenets of The Constitution, are not just as solid today as they were when they were first written ??? Are Human Rights and Human Dignities any less important now than what they were then ??? Fluidity, is the lame excuse that people who are incapable of understanding the Original Concept use to dissuade others from seeing the facts in their ineptitude, and that lights the fire that will destroy every decent thing ... All because of, dare I say it, Liberal thought processes ... Lets destroy the English Language, our Native Language in America, and lets go to Eubonics, or Hispano-Africanism ... Why not Pig Latin ??? Once we have made everyone to communicate like a bunch of 3rd. Grade Drop-Outs, it won't be so noticeable that there really ARE incompetents running around all over the place ....... But, won't us Guilty White Liberals feel better about ourselves .......   The ONLY moment in the entire universe where human beings are EQUAL ... is that we all have an Equal oportunity to attain Salvation, and that by embracing God's own Truth ... without mewling about, "But we've always done/said it that way"  Yeah, and you've always been wrong, too ....... I am not as intelligent or attractive as most everybody else on the planet ... but I'll bet there are damned few of you out there who can build an Engine from scratch as well as I can ... We're NOT equal, in any event save that which I have captioned above ... and if that hurts somebody's sensitivities, GET OVER IT !!!   Point is, Language is NOT Fluid ... The Constitution is NOT Fluid, The Scriptures are NOT Fluid ... and none of them should be treated as tho' they are ... (Altho' it DID give Peterman what he THOUGHT was gonna be a safe Topic)

Ogden Nash was a terribly clever Genius ... Highly adept at Spoonerisms ... His subtlty was so refined, he could deliver a Set-Up Line that we might have heard, even from him, a thousand times, and then deliver the punch line and catch us again, sending us into convulsive laughter ....... He has been gone a long time, but his Books are still available, and worth looking for ...

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q85rPq1u9sc

 
Beg pardon, but if language is not fluid, why is the English we speak today so vastly different than the English that Chaucer wrote in?

Is everyone as happy as I am that the Eye has not devolved into LOLese?

cuukoo1 - Even though I only have an occasional glass of wine, which by itself has the power to make me a really cheap date, I'd be pleased to drink it out of a mason jar and have a drink with you at that bar in your link. 

First round is on me in theSepia's Club Car.

PARK4 - It's pretty overcast in Wrigleyville today too.

Michael,
 
I cringe every time I see LOL...or one of these things :)
 
Truth is I compulsively text in proper English. Not a bcuz, prolly, nite, or 2sday to be seen.
 
 

thank you peter lake!!!  looked like fun!

LOL Michael.
 
Oh yes I am yes I am yes I am delighted it hasn't  It makes communicating more difficult, on occasion, but I'll take it over the ROTFL etc. boards any day.  And once an LOL is introduced as accepted verbal currency, it's downhill from there.
 
I'd rather LOL (and I do) without announcing it.

... if Language is not Fluid, why is the English we speak today so vastly different    FROM    the English Chaucer wrote in? ... I   REST   MY  CASE ...
 
This, Duchess, is the English Chaucer wrote in, since obviously you've forgotten .......
 
or were you thinking of Melvin Chaucer ... My Bookie in Hialeah ???  
 
 
I have gret wonder, be this lighte,
 How that I live, for day ne nighte
 I may nat slepe wel nigh noght,
 I have so many an ydel thoght
 Purely for defaute of slepe
 That, by my trouthe, I take no kepe
 Of no-thing, how hit cometh or goth,
 Ne me nis no-thing leef nor loth.
 Al is y-liche good to me --
 Ioye or sorowe, wherso hyt be --
 For I have feling in no-thinge,
 But, as it were, a mased thing,
 Alway in point to falle a-doun;
 For sorwful imaginacioun
 Is alway hoolly in my minde.
 And wel ye wite, agaynes kynde
 Hit were to liven in this wyse;
 For nature wolde nat suffyse
 To noon erthely creature
 Not longe tyme to endure
 Withoute slepe, and been in sorwe;
 And I ne may, ne night ne morwe,
 Slepe; and thus melancolye
 And dreed I have for to dye,
 Defaute of slepe and hevinesse
 Hath sleyn my spirit of quiknesse,
 That I have lost al lustihede.
 Suche fantasies ben in myn hede
 So I not what is best to do.
 But men myght axe me, why soo
 I may not slepe, and what me is?
 But natheles, who aske this
 Leseth his asking trewely.
 My-selven can not telle why
 The sooth; but trewely, as I gesse,
 I holde hit be a siknesse
 That I have suffred this eight yere,
 And yet my bote is never the nere;
 For ther is phisicien but oon,
 That may me hele; but that is doon.
Passe we over until eft;
That wil not be, moot nede be left;
 Our first matere is good to kepe.
So whan I saw I might not slepe,
Til now late, this other night,
Upon my bedde I sat upright
And bad oon reche me a book,
A romaunce, and he hit me took
To rede and dryve the night away;
For me thoghte it better play
Then playen either at chesse or tables.
 And in this boke were writen fables
That clerkes hadde, in olde tyme,
And other poets, put in ryme
To rede, and for to be in minde
Whyl men loved the lawe of kinde.
This book ne spak but of such thinges,
Of quenes lyves, and of kinges,
And many othere thinges smale.
Amonge al this I fond a tale
That me thoughte a wonder thing.
 This was the tale: There was a king
That hight Seys, and hadde a wyf,
The beste that mighte bere lyf;
And this quene hight Alcyone.
 So hit befel, therafter sone,
This king wolde wenden over see.
To tellen shortly, whan that he
Was in the see, thus in this wyse,
Soche a tempest gan to ryse
That brak hir mast, and made it falle,
And clefte her ship, and dreinte hem alle,
That never was founden, as it telles,
Bord ne man, ne nothing elles.
Right thus this king Seys loste his lyf.
Now for to speken of his wife: --
This lady, that was left at home,
Hath wonder, that the king ne come
Hoom, for hit was a longe terme.
Anon her herte gan to erme;
And for that hir thoughte evermo
Hit was not wel he dwelte so,
She longed so after the king
That certes, hit were a pitous thing
To telle hir hertely sorwful lyf
That hadde, alas! this noble wyfe;
For him she loved alderbest.
Anon she sente bothe eest and west
To seke him, but they founde nought.
Alas!' quoth she, `that I was wrought!
And wher my lord, my love, be deed?
Certes, I nil never ete breed,
I make a-vowe to my god here,
But I mowe of my lord here!'
Such sorwe this lady to her took
That trewely I, which made this book,
Had swich pite and swich rowthe
To rede hir sorwe, that, by my trowthe,
I ferde the worse al the morwe
After, to thenken on her sorwe.
So whan she coude here no word
That no man mighte fynde hir lord,
Ful ofte she swouned, and saide `Alas!'
For sorwe ful nigh wood she was,
Ne she coude no reed but oon;
But doun on knees she sat anoon,
And weep, that pite was to here.
A!  mercy!  swete lady dere!'
Quod she to Iuno, hir goddesse;
Help me out of this distresse,
And yeve me grace my lord to see
 Sone, or wite wher-so he be,
Or how he fareth, or in what wyse,
And I shal make you sacrifyse,
And hoolly youres become I shal
With good wil, body, herte, and al;
And but thou wilt this, lady swete,
Send me grace to slepe, and mete
In my slepe som certeyn sweven,
Wher-through that I may knowen even
Whether my lord be quik or deed.'
With that word she heng doun the heed,
And fil a-swown as cold as ston;
Hir women caught her up anon,
And broghten hir in bed al naked,
And she, forweped and forwaked,
Was wery, and thus the dede sleep
Fil on hir, or she toke keep,
Through Iuno, that had herd hir bone,
That made hir to slepe sone;
For as she prayde, so was don,
In dede; for Iuno, right anon,
Called thus her messagere
To do her erande, and he com nere.
Whan he was come, she bad him thus:
`Go bet,' quod Iuno, `to Morpheus,
Thou knowest hym wel, the god of sleep;
Now understond wel, and tak keep.
Sey thus on my halfe, that he
Go faste into the grete see,
And bid him that, on alle thing,
He take up Seys body the king,
That lyth ful pale and no-thing rody.
Bid him crepe into the body,
Aud do it goon to Alcyone
The quene, ther she lyth alone,
And shewe hir shortly, hit is no nay,
How hit was dreynt this other day;
And do the body speke so
Right as hit was wont to do,
The whyles that hit was on lyve.
Go now faste, and hy thee blyve!'
This messager took leve and wente
Upon his wey, and never ne stente
Til he com to the derke valeye
That stant bytwene roches tweye,
Ther never yet grew corn ne gras,
Ne tree, ne nothing that ought was,
Beste, ne man, ne nothing elles,
Save ther were a fewe welles
Came renning fro the cliffes adoun,
That made a deedly sleping soun,
And ronnen doun right by a cave
That was under a rokke y-grave
Amid the valey, wonder depe.
Ther thise goddes laye and slepe,
Morpheus, and Eclympasteyre,
That was the god of slepes heyre,
That slepe and did non other werk.
This cave was also as derk
As helle pit over-al aboute;
They had good leyser for to route
To envye, who might slepe beste;
Some henge hir chin upon hir breste
And slepe upright, hir heed y-hed,
And some laye naked in hir bed,
And slepe whyles the dayes laste.
This messager come flying faste,
And cryed, `O ho! awake anon!'
Hit was for noght; ther herde him non.
Awak!' quod he, `who is, lyth there?'
And blew his horn right in hir ere,
And cryed `awaketh!' wonder hye.
This god of slepe, with his oon ye
Cast up, axed, `who clepeth there?'
`Hit am I,' quod this messagere;
`Iuno bad thou shuldest goon' --
And tolde him what he shulde doon
As I have told yow here-tofore;
Hit is no need reherse hit more;
And wente his wey, whan he had sayd.
 Anon this god of slepe a-brayd
Out of his slepe, and gan to goon,
And did as he had bede him doon;
Took up the dreynte body sone,
And bar hit forth to Alcyone,
His wif the quene, ther-as she lay,
Right even a quarter before day,
And stood right at hir beddes fete,
 And called hir, right as she hete,
By name, and sayde, `my swete wyf,
Awak!  let be your sorwful lyf!
For in your sorwe there lyth no reed;
For certes, swete, I nam but deed;
Ye shul me never on lyve y-see.
But good swete herte, look that ye
Bury my body, at whiche a tyde
Ye mowe hit finde the see besyde;
And far-wel, swete, my worldes blisse!
I praye god your sorwe lisse;
To litel whyl our blisse lasteth!'
With that hir eyen up she casteth,
And saw noght; `A!' quod she, `for sorwe!'
And deyed within the thridde morwe.
But what she sayde more in that swow
I may not telle yow as now,
Hit were to longe for to dwelle;
My first matere I wil yow telle,
Wherfor I have told this thing
Of Alcione and Seys the king.
For thus moche dar I saye wel,
I had be dolven everydel,
And deed, right through defaute of sleep,
If I nad red and taken keep
Of this tale next before:
And I wol telle yow wherfore:
For I ne might, for bote ne bale,
Slepe, or I had red this tale
 Of this dreynte Seys the king,
And of the goddes of sleping.
Whan I had red this tale wel
And over-loked hit everydel,
Me thoughte wonder if hit were so;
For I had never herd speke, or tho,
Of no goddes that coude make
Men for to slepe, ne for to wake;
For I ne knew never god but oon.
And in my game I sayde anoon --
And yet me list right evel to pleye --
Rather then that I shulde deye
Through defaute of sleping thus,
I wolde yive thilke Morpheus,
Or his goddesse, dame Iuno,
Or som wight elles, I ne roghte who --
To make me slepe and have som reste --
I wil yive him the alder-beste
Yift that ever he aboode his lyve,
And here on warde, right now, as blyve;
If he wol make me slepe a lyte,
Of downe of pure dowves whyte
I wil yive him a fether-bed,
Rayed with golde, and right wel cled
In fyn blak satin doutremere,
And many a pilow, and every bere
Of clothe of Reynes, to slepe softe;
Him thar not nede to turnen ofte.
And I wol yive him al that falles
258    To a chambre; and al his halles
I wol do peynte with pure golde,
And tapite hem ful many folde
Of oo sute; this shal he have,
Yf I wiste wher were his cave,
If he can make me slepe sone,
As did the goddesse Alcione.
And thus this ilke god, Morpheus,
May winne of me mo fees thus
Than ever he wan; and to Iuno,
That is his goddesse, I shal so do,
I trow that she shal holde her payd.'
I hadde unneth that word y-sayd
Right thus as I have told hit yow,
That sodeynly, I niste how,
Swich a lust anoon me took
To slepe, that right upon my book
I fil aslepe, and therwith even
Me mette so inly swete a sweven,
So wonderful, that never yit
I trowe no man hadde the wit
To conne wel my sweven rede;
No, not Ioseph, withoute drede,
Of Egipte, he that redde so
The kinges meting Pharao,
No more than coude the leste of us;
Ne nat scarsly Macrobeus,
(He that wroot al thavisioun
That he mette, Kyng Scipioun,
The noble man, the Affrican --
Swiche marvayles fortuned than)
I trowe, a-rede my dremes even.
Lo, thus hit was, this was my sweven.
              

I'm just thinking....... 

That language was created/ignited/conceived/quickened/developed to enable the communication of ideas and concepts that required something a bit more complex than grunts and hand gestures.

Seems like it would be a shame if language, in its highest from, became a barrier to the communications of ideas and concepts. That just doesn't pass the stink test to me. Kind of self-defeating in its way.

One may be able to force or pressure someone to behave as you want, but the most that will be achieved is the minimum of any expectations. Love and respect of language is something that must be taught and you can only teach the willing, by also being willing, to listen.

This old Republican, but never one to vote straight down party lines Republican, may be wrong, but seldom in doubt.

It's Friday Light today and there I go stirrin' up the melting pot.

Peace out - Enjoy the weekend folks.

I'm just going to comment on the taste of beer today and everyday in my opinion.
 
YUCK!!!!
 
In my 68 3/4 years I bet I haven't had a 6 pack.
 
If you have water or beer I'll take the water.

Grad school, we read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in the original Middle English -- and I was going to say,but lost my courage, that I didn't think Middle English was all that different from Modern English. 
 
But now I'm saying it, since Jalopkin provided a great example for me to lean on.  Upon which to lean.
 
I didn't need a translator to understand it, and my reading aloud of The Wife of Bath's Tale wasn't difficult to do, except for the pronunciation since Middle English tends to hit on the letters we now keep silent.  Example: the wayward Knight in The Knight's Tale, the K is pronounced as a hard K and the ght is gutteral.  Also the e in "Tale" is given a soft eh pronunciation. 
 
But Wife is pronounced "wiff" so there's exceptions all over the place in Middle English just as in Modern.  I only know that Middle English isn't all that difficult to comprehend, if you know Modern English.  It's just not all that different.
 
Old English is a different story, and it's one I don't know well enough to tell.

korthal, if one could disrespect beer, I would, because I don't like it either.  It makes me sneeze.

PETER LAKE:   Was  that  a  Shot ???
 
 
Thats OK ... You Too are Entitled .......
 
 
This Older Republican feels exactly the same way .......

To Each and Every One of You ....... Have a Glorious Weekend ... Be Safe, Be Happy, and May Life Be All Youy Want It To Be ... In Spades !!!!!!!
 
 
Ivan

PeterLake went missing.  He was last spotted sliding into the club car, where he's got himself a bottle of wine, and he's working on becoming korthal's cheap date.  Or cuukoo's.  Or both?

Will  someone  please  determine  if  it  is  acceptable  to  abandon  today's  topic  of  conversation,  at  the  point  where  the  club  car  has  been  reached?   The  day  has  been  long,  the  week  has  been  impossible,  and  I  am  afraid  that  my  cognac  will  soon  slur  my  speech,  and  mix  my  metaphors.....

It's definitely time for some mixed metaphors, Bert.  Cheers! to the end of a long week.
 
 
"It is time for cocktails.  The moment for which all of New York rises, works, lies, exercises, hurries, dresses..."  ~ E. Hardwick, Sleepless Nights.

Ivan, You have a great weekend too.   If you have to ask if it was a shot, then it wasn't a shot.  Just another country heard from is all. I'd better take a few vitamins and perhaps a nap ..... sounds like a busy night in the club car.

I'll second that, PeterLake, and this is a first from me:
 
Be well Ivan!  Enjoy the weekend, hope to see you next week...
 
p.

Park4: Didn't you understand the Old English sample I provided?

No, I didn't, Michael.  But I didn't give it a hard "think" because I saw it was from Beowulf, and Beowulf was not my favorite poem.  My favorite anything.  Epic.  Whatever, those were gray days in English class for me when we studied Beowulf.
 
Sort of like when I was force fed Edith Hamilton's Mythology.  I thought I'd die.
 
Translation? 
Are you teaching Beowulf this quarter?

  
Two things that I know for sure:

One, this sort of discussion, as illuminating and entertaining as it may be, is discouraging to some lurkers who, wondering if they should take the plunge and participate, find the persnickety details daunting and off-putting. I heard from one today.

Two, the most riveting reading that I have done this summer or any of the preceding sixty four for that matter, was written by persons with none of the skills discussed here today.

It was intensely personal, violent, sad, funny and often just a wonderment of a learning experience. So, though I take a back seat to few in appreciating a well turned phrase or perfectly fashioned sentences strung together, I will have a seat on wet ground, if necessary, to read a great story no matter how the rules and language are tortured. It is the story.

Sorry to borrow Ivan's method but I had to chime in...
Today's discussion seems to be about grammar when we should be talking about greater things given what today is. It was only on this day back in 1963, that a man who spoke so well, you could hear the punctuation, gave a speech on the steps of a memorial to another man who was great in his own regard.
Turn your speakers up and listen my fellow Eyelanders, for this is grammar at its finest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk

Doc; y'all are exactly right!

On Topic, but must make my way to it. Appreciating, adoring, understanding the blood, sweat, and tears that make fine writing, and loving language, I echo PeterLake; I find myself doing that often, and it's telling: Note how he and others, including Stoney, Willie, Zev, The Docs fashion a sentence, shape a paragraph; how graphically they describe a scene, a moment, a slice of life, the feel of leaves under your shoes, the brief scent of a tree you hurriedly pass, the hue of the sky just before a storm...they touch all my senses.

I joy in that, and because I care about language I weep at its abuse, worsening by the day by those who should know better. In comfortable casual conversation -- here on The Eyer, often -- we speak carelessly, misusing terms, words, grammar willy-nilly, making typos (my failing) but that's not what worries me. Rather, it's TV anchors, articles in print, politicians, public speakers: If you care about your cause, care how you express your views. No matter our politics, a fine thing it is to have in the Oval Office a man well-read, who makes complete sentences and cogent arguments well-supported as he represents us to a world in whose eyes we sorely need redemption. Spelling counts.

No rules of grammar "bug me," in our Host's term: Those rules, hammered into our third-grade heads, make sense and become bone of our bone 'til a bell rings inside us when we, years later, ignore them in serious writing or speaking. The study of Latin aids that of English grammar enormously: All falls into place, searing securely those English-grammar rules, and suddenly we know why we diagrammed sentences in elementary school, why teachers were tough in grading essays in junior high. We have a structure,
immutable and world without end, at a time in our lives when much else is awhirl.

Like another, I may cringe a bit at "youse," but not altogether, for it represents
the wealth of influences that create our ever-changing, ever-enriched and growing language. A bit of stodginess in me wishes certain changes hadn't taken place, and some words newly accepted aren't so by me -- they needn't be; it's all personal choice -- but this has ever been the nature of English. A pet peeve of mine is the absolutely incorrect "nauseous" when the speaker intends "nauseated," but that, too, might be regional; the words have different meanings entirely, and why one hears "nauseous" in the Northeast I'll never know. Perhaps for the same reason we in the South own a plethora of oddball-to-others words and usages. Such most often result from who, chiefly, settled a region: Compare the "local-color" usage of, say, Garrison Keillor with that of a Southwestern Barbara Kingsolver), a Northeastern (John Dufresne), a deep South (Eudora Welty) writer...differences galore, wonderfully worthy, and I'd change none. Everyone who entered our welcoming door; came before there was one; or arrived later by air brings unique offerings to enrich us. Grammar in any language provides underpinnings; structure. We need those. I'm off to the club car. Gin and tonic, please?

ps Dear DOC NOLAN, you delight me by knowing "y'all" is a highly functional word, but because I like you and believe you care, may I say it's spelled "y'all," not "ya'll"? An apostrophe replaces missing letters in any word; in "you all (i.e. all of you)," the "ou" in "you (all)" is replaced by the apostrophe, hence "y'all." And you can be an honorary Southerner anytime. Only those who don't know assign "y'all" to one person; it's always plural, as its construction reveals, and Doc Nolan knew.

How did I forget to say I'm with Stoney (again, so often) on the pleasures of READING -- on wet ground or elsewhere. My effort above to stay On Topic and not wander in my usual Southern way took enormous strength, I hope y'all realize, and is done to prove I can. Also I feel strongly about the subject. But exciting it's not.

And PAM, I've loved Ogden Nash since first I could read, and yes, I well remember his New Yorker poem. Thanks for reminding us of his rarely-equalled wit and, well, of him I'd never say merely "way with words." Talk about understatement. I could read him forever.

He's likely responsible in part for my -- and countless others' -- love of language. Wish he were in school curricula.

Ogden Nash is superb to read to children....

In 8th grade my teacher would over annunciate every word.  She pretended that she spoke English perfectly but I knew she was a fraud becuse she always told us to stand "on line" rather than in line.  Once she asked if anyone had "a scissor."  I unscrewd the little screw that held the two blades of my scissors together and presented her with a single blade or half of a  pair of scissors.   

Eve, your wonderful comments tonight read light a beautiful melody.  Now that's what I call communicating!

Ah,thank alls y'alls, for this most entertaining,and enlightening scree. Allow me the pleasure to reiterate one of my oft repeated thoughts: there were geniuses (genusi)before there was a spoken/written word;that is how we come to have them,and they fit like they were always there,waiting for us to find.onomonopia,y'all

screed, I meant screed. and no, this was not boring in the least, that was meant as tongue in cheek.

Hi Y'all!! How r u? There u r again, axin all these questions. I'm just hoi polloi! WTF! I just missed my exit!

Park4: I shall never teach Beowulf.  I'm not that mean.

I never thought you were a cruel guy, Michael.  Beowulf  had me reconsidering math as a major (just joking; I can barely add.)

John, dear, thank you; you know praise from you is praise indeed. But I hope what shone through is the need, yes, for appreciation of language,but also forbearance, patience, acceptance, and, as you beautifully point out, keeping things in priority: Unfortunately, I share your experience of (more or less automatically) correcting my young son when he was trying to tell me something important to him, and seeing that hurt spark in his eyes. I could have cried. I did hug him and say, "I'm sorry, go ahead..." but such damage can't be undone, and I'd thoughtlessly spoiled a valuable moment.

No, you're not crabby, though everyone's entitled to crabby days. You make good sense. Kind, thoughtful sense, as ever. I've share,m too, in certain Eye discussions, your experience of standing out in the cold rain loking in on a warm fireside conversation.

My trip to the club car was, of course, on the sepiatrain; by now I don't even identity it. Gin and tonic was really brave (trying to impress The Others); half a glass of wine is my usual, and just that makes me a cheap and mellow date.

Should I admit I enjoyed Chaucerian English, and liked Canterbury Tales? That I managed to fail algebra twice while shining in third-year Latin tells much about the mind I'm burdened? blessed? with. To grammar checkers: "mind with which I'm burdened." Winston Churchill was right, methinks, about prepositions.

JULIA MASI, sounds like your teacher may have been brought up/educated in Britain, where both your examples are the general rule. Could be?

Georgia - That mind "with which you are burdened" is a joy and blessing to us all.peace out

Eve...Thank you! It's wonderful to see you here. I love following your literary tangents whenever you stop by to walk with us, down your always warm and sunny Magnolia-lined garden paths, to "wander in your usual Southern way."

Shandonista...Although not as well-known a poem as some of his others, that one is my favorite. I also enjoy...

           If

If freckles were lovely, and day was night,

And measles were nice and a lie warn't a lie,

     Life would be delight, -

     But things couldn't go right

     For in such a sad plight

I wouldn't be I.

If earth was heaven, and now was hence,

And past was present, and false was true,

     There might be some sense

     But I'd be in suspense

     For on such a pretense

You wouldn't be you.

If fear was plucky, and globes were square,

And dirt was cleanly, and tears were glee

     Things would seem fair, -

     Yet they'd all despair,

     For if here was there

We wouldn't be we.

John...Thou art a kind and noble worm.