What Darwin Really Said

It is amazing how ideas become twisted.  If anyone has made the error of reading a fundamental Christian website, they know how absurd the arguments become.

It is interesting how natural selection works in daily life.  I see it everyday on campus.  Those students who can adapt to campus life and college expectations survive.  Those who improve it, thrive.  And those who cannot adapt soon find other things to do.

I often indulge in primordial soup, and the occasional tincture of nature, red in tooth and claw. Good stuff. Anyone for Tennyson?

On another, more philosophical note, a harmless-sounding ditty on my pandora asks the disturbing question: What DOES one do with a drunken sailor? Some suggestions on offer:

Put him in the longboat til he's sober? This seems reasonable. A salutory restorative.

Lash him to the helm and call him captain? I foresee problems with this approach.

Shave his belly with a rusty razor? Baffling, with, perhaps, unintended consequences.

Stick him in a bag and beat him senseless? I believe this to be an unwarranted and overreaching intervention. Tough love, perhaps, but still.

Throw him in the rack with the captain's daughter? Now this is too much entirely. Surely the lady has some say in the matter. A drunken sailor, early in the morning? No.

It is quite a three pipe problem, apparently. He may be better served by a consultation with the ship's doctor, on the orlop deck. Deep waters, indeed.

What would Darwin do with a drunken sailor? Enjoin him to evolve? Naturally select less beverage in the future? Something pithy, I make no doubt.

Take all his Rum and toss him over?  (If this continues, after a short while there will be no one left aboard)

.....execpt my kids.....for now.

Oh I am so delighted to know we are all addressing the historic problem of what one does with a drunken sailor!  'tis a song I learned at my father's knee years after he left home at age 18 or so and "went to sea" - he never told me what one did with the drunken sailor, however and when he returned from the Far East, he set about becoming an electrical engineer, building power plants, and then seeing that the resulting electricity was connected to its intended users.  And one had better not be drunk when doing that!

So I sit here wiith my mug of Wolaver's Will Stevens Pumpkin Ale, pondering the question and the season.  

And ever so glad that the great minds of PE are attempting to solve the problem.

And agreeing heartily with CoyoteMike about the manner in which we mortals often choose to interpret the writings of others in any fashion that suits our fancy.  Why would anyone then choose to set out on a voyage of discovery?  Probably the answer lies somewhere in relation to our own sense of satisfaction - until the popular press catches up a century later.

The deeper I study genetics the more I'm impressed by Darwin, who had no knowledge of DNA, RNA, or the mechanisms of molecular biology. It's curious that the word 'evolution' ("genetic change in populations of organisms over successive generations") has become so controversial and -- at least in the fundamentalist Protestant South -- such a perjorative term.  Raised in a Roman Catholic environment, it came as a great shock to discover that most folks 'down here' thought (and think) that one cannot accept Christianity and 'evolutionism'!  Most don't believe that the nuns and my Benedictine professors saw no conflict, and that 'evolution' was a non-controversial part of every biology course ...  I've given up trying to persuade folks that the Bible was not written to be a scientific treatise, but was intended (in the words of one of my theology professors) as a 'sacred history'.

Perhaps the best book I've read on the controversy between advocates of intelligent design (the newest reincarnation of anti-scientists) and 'Darwinists' (an unfortunate term, but usually understood by all) is Robert T. Pennock's 'Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological and Scientfic Perspectives' (available by amazon.com).

This compendium is simply an archive of articles, grouped by topic and written by proponents of each 'school'.  It's much like an intellectual game of tennis as the topics are batted back and forth, and the differences are elucidated.  It early becomes apparent that the arguments are between faith (pretending to be a 'new form of science') and methodological naturalism (the unprovable assumption that each mystery can be understood by natural causes and that empirical validation of hypotheses will lead to theories with factual support making them worthy of acceptance.)

 As I' ve studied this issue it has become increasingly apparent to me that no one in either camp makes the common sense observation that if there is any evidence of design in biology it is that of VERY UNINTELLIGENT design: from tandem repeats, SNPPS related to genetic malfunctions, mutations, hereditary genetic diseases, etc, etc.  And when it comes to the design of the human body, well.... the path traced by the sciatic nerve, the design of the human backbone, and a host of other 'design mistakes' either indicate a 'not very bright' designer, or (more likely) a machine designed by random variations (mutations), and natural selection...  I could go on , but I'll stop here.... 

So, God created nature to be adaptable?

Should this offend anyone?  On the flip side of the argument, why should an athiest/agnostic be offenced by someone's belief in God?

It's possible to believe in Creation without making an "ism" of it, for that matter.

All matters of science to one side, Darwin (like many other 19th century thinkers) is simply a 'good read'.  Like so many English writers of his time, he was very good at 'telling a tale'....  

RE: Mr. P's final question: "And you? How does natural selection fit into your worldview?" Excellent question!

Once I grasped the infinitisimally tiny probability of me ever existing, and the mind-boggling complexity of my body, I became both incredibly thankful for my unbelievable luck in 'being here' and aware of the improbability of my body functioning at all.  I was struck by awe -- and every day I wake up I simply marvel at my good luck in even existing! 

Improbably enough, natural selection makes my Thanksgiving Day celebration and this discussion possible -- and relevant to each other! Busy, busy, busy....

OK, Y'all,

Drunken Sailors and Stone Cold Sober Fundamentalists aside,

Let's think a minute about what WE are doing in conflict with evolution. I write this from behind a set of graduated bifocals. Presumably, almost everybody lives long enough to need the bifocal part ( can no longer tell shampoo from conditioner in the shower) and most of us are through reproducing by then, but the tough love of evolution would have improved mankind's eyesight had we not all taken to wearing glasses. And that is just an easy example. Any "other ability" that is accommodated will likely be repeated in future populations. Some may evolve into useful and specialized traits, but some may well evolve further and further into plain old weaknesses.

I agree, there is nothing about evolution that conflicts with my God. I would imagine He is very pleased with Darwin still, but I have given Him enough head scratching moments ( would that be Head scratching, MissIve?) that I am not going to call attention to the less intellectually accommodating of His chirn. 

I have an electrician who one day revealed his thoughts on the world:  that it's 6,000 years old and that there's no such thing as a geologic record and fossils are from The Devil to trick faithless people, yahda yahda yahda.  I let my seven year old dicker with him for a while just for fun. 

The experience helped me understand the essential difference between people who rely on a fundamentalist interpretation of (any) religious scripture for their world-view versus others among us who prefer the scientific method;  it's a matter of fear, bascially, of being wrong.  My electrician, more than anything else, wanted to be able to say at the end of his day, "Yes, well, I may not know much but I AM RIGHT ABOUT GOD."  Since most faithful people will happily acknowledge that their god is the "most important" thing in the Universe, it trumps all other issues to assert that they are "right" where their god is concerned.  They can stop thinking about it.  About anything, if they want to.  And that's what my electrician had done.

And while the scientific method offers a great many blessings to its adherents, the one thing that it absolutely never lets a person do is rest on their laurels.  Once you're science-minded, then you've guaranteed yourself a life spent analyzing, searching, confirming, always looking, always questioning.  It's the behavior that moves the human species forward.  Absolutely critical to the entire population that the scientists do their Kung Fu!  The Scientific Method is the Wu Tan Mountain style of thinking.  Big medicine.

And plenty of scientifically minded people have come up with theories and been horribly wrong.  Not so much lately, but we've got great historical examples, eh?  Ptolemaic theory.  Oops.  Humoristic medicine.  Yikes.  But when science gets things wrong, then those ideas tend to die off and nobody talks about them again.  Moreso now in the "modern" era, true, but science has only really taken hold in the last century or two.  Maybe it hasn't taken permanent hold yet (be afraid).  

Religion gets things wrong, too, for instance when claiming that a particular god "commands" some sorts of behavior, only to change its mind later - e.g., that women are inferior, or that slavery is just, or that killing off entire cities is okay.  But religion has an easy fallback, and people call it "misinterpretation".  The "holy scripture" can never be wrong, just people's understanding of it. Which brings me back to my electrician.

As long as my electrician fellow could point to a book that he believed could never be wrong, and as long as he could blame his possible wrongness on his state of moral corruptibility, rather than on the book, THEN APPARENTLY he could sleep well at night.  Personally, i couldn't sleep if I were as intellectually contorted as my electrician was.  But what the hey. 

The point is, my electrician never had to admit that what he believed in could be wrong.  No scientist can do this.  And there's your bottom line.  Fundy's hate to be wrong.  Entire dissertations have been written on the fear of being wrong, by genius psychologists.  Scientists, for the most part, cannot fear to be wrong since it is Holy Writ in the Scientific Method that the null hypothesis must be rejected.  Therefore scientists must continually seek out the conditions in nature that would make their hypothesis false.  And if one scientist won't do it, then there are many others who will.  Nobody gets to protect their favorite little pet theory. 

I can't think of any religion that would tolerate its paying members running about trying to continually prove its core doctrines WRONG on purpose.   Religions tend to get a might tetchy about such things.  One might say they get Inquisitive.  

Anyway, it's time for tea.  And it's pouring down rain.  So I have to make tea AND do a Happy Dance, since this rainy weather means my Fire Season is officially over.  This time last year we had just returned from being evacuated, when 160 of my neighbors' houses had burned.  The fire had eaten my second car, just to show me it was a badass, but my house was undamaged.  Hence, awakening this morning to a downpour and a soaking wet forest is balm for my anxious soul.  And tea.  TTFN.

But this reminds me of a joke...  the tea is steeping, I've got a minute.

An electrical engineer, a mechanical engineer, and a civil engineer are arguing about god (as if there's only one).  The electrical engineer says "It's obvious that god's an electrical engineer.  Just look at the human nervious system.  It's an amazing work of ELECTRICAL engineering."

The mechanical engineer scoffs.  "You're an idiot, how about the human skeleton?  That is the work of a master MECHANICAL engineer."

The civil engineer chuckles.  "Boys, you're both all wet.  God is a civil engineer, and that's that, because only a civil engineer would put major waste pipelines right through a recreational area!"

Hmmm.. Hey Miss Ive do you think this discussion can go in the direction of a man actually living inside of a whale?...  Just wondering :)

I was brought up in a Strict Lutheran Religous Home, yet my parents were pretty progressive when it came to the studing of evolution. We were taught the Bible's 1st chapters of Genesis at a very young age. We taught about Darwin at about age 10. We told that Science is one topic & faith is another. The two are not to be intermixed & that was that. Faith is very much a part of my up bringing the fact that God created us from dust is not that hard for my mind to comprhend. Yet being real is also a part of my up bringing Science & studing of the earth & the fact that we may have evolved from apes is sciencetific & could possible also have happened.  Darwin made a hypothesis that really has not been proven, The book of Genesis has also not been proven. It doesn't mean one is right, one is wrong, or they are both right or both wrong. It really means that it all is what it is.   

We like to think that with every step we can approach a more perfect understanding of the truth, which is out there, waiting to be discovered.  Maybe apprehended is a better word.  We have to pursue it, after all.  Fleet-footed, the truth is.

But dust?  Bah.  TREES.  Humans were made from trees, by Odin and His brothers!  

Mr. Isles let me be one of the first to say That is a very nice Kilt ~

But I'm sorry I need to stand by my Dust comment & well becuase I'm of the female gender for me it would be ~ Dust & one of Adams Rib's...... Although I may be swayed to Odin's theory but since I am not that well versed in Norse Mythology I cannot comment at thsi time.  Come to think of it I should learn more about Norse Mythology being German & all.... Hmmm..... Maybe I should put some book sbaout it on my Xmas list I give to my MIL & watch her FREAK OUT.....

MILs are great fun in this respect!  The first time we broke the news to my sweetie's mother that we would be raising our children in a Heathen household, her sputtering retort was "You mean you'll be teaching them about FALSE GODS?!?"  To say that our reply was mirthful barely scratches the surface. 

For all those who wrote me kind notes of 'get well soon' yesterday, thank you, thank you, thank you.

I especially loved PeterLake's Get Well Now. Will have to use that one myself. It works with my impatient nature.

And I am better. The fever broke around four in the morning and left me with an inordinant amount of energy.

JaimeLynn called me this morning to check on me, and tell me that "I better not think the flu was going to keep her from taking me DOWN in the family football game tomorrow." Apparently, the enthusiasm with which I said 'hello' answered her question. Giddy. Love Thanksgiving.

Thanks again, all. Very good people here.

Welcome Jenn Givler!!!! Have seen you around Twitter. Glad you're aboard. 

Thank you, MissIve! I, too, am glad you're feeling better. Good luck in the family football scrum.

Kilts are so useful. I find mine especially helpful on the days when I fall behind on laundry, like today. Fresh out of binkies. It's a kilt day!

About ten years or so ago, a friend and I wrote a play to be performed at an old folks facility with a lot of retired academics and clerics. We were Learner and Low.

It opens with God, a stocky, thin haired figure in Oshkosh B'Gosh bibbies and high topped old guy's shoes, excusing himself for a moment from a cribbage game...

"Jesus Christ," He calls out, scratching his behind.

A tall nice looking fellow with a box wrench in his hand appears from behind:

"You shrieked, Father?"

God, doing a Marx brothers surprise take, complains that he has lost his lucky coin.
The lights come up to reveal his cribbage opponent: Albert Einstein.

Jesus makes the case that if a few more Italians were let in, maybe he wouldn't have to spend time doing his own bicycle repairs and could be a more attentive "only child."

One twenty-one minute act in which the unnamed characters are all recognizable by appearance; Lincoln-complaining that plays give him a headache; Darwin- who thinks that the tobacconist screwed him out of his... change.

Satan, played by Richard Milhous Nixon who explains that he would have been a "plumber" were it not for the fact that he stuttered and broke out in a sweat saying the word- "Nipple."

You get the idea: Eighth grade style humor and my reason for mentioning it is that of the hundred or so persons in attendance, nobody got huffy and almost all of them, after a short break, watched a second performance.

That was certainly during what seems to have been a high point in religious fundamentalism yet those people laughed at being tweaked a little as well.

Maybe it is just that, after a certain age, the large picture becomes clear: A big pendulum that having always swung too far in one direction, begins slowly to swing back too far in the other.

Religious wackies, very few, on one end, cloners and ice age guys on the other.
Almost the entire population of the planet, in the middle somewhere hoping to be looked back on as neither Bob Barr nor John Conyers.

A very excellent Mae West in a sparkly dress and a two beach ball backside, asks Groucho:

"Does this dress make my ass look big?'

God, who, by this time we have learned, is known to his friends as "Earnie," intervenes:

"No, Madame, the dress does not but the innovation- vision- does."

In the end, Earnie, because he has a long memory and a sense of humor, has turned Nixon into a soccer ball.

As a Deist like our founding fathers..and Lincoln, and others... I find that Darwinism works with the universal rhythms of life (or the God in everything).  I don't adhere to any holy books but respect all good paths to God. That being said... just because someone claims its against their religion doesn't mean what they are saying is true or that they are walking a good path "of God". People kill, murder, steal, cheat often in the name of their religion.  Darwin's theories is of God...no matter who tries to spin it differently from their interpretation of their religion or holy book.   They confuse validity with truth.

Jonathan.. as a wannabee botanist, I do think we are very much related to trees.  Once this earth's life today is destroyed, neither one of us will be left...another verse in the nake universe.

in terms of religion and holy books.. aside the gods and religion introduced to the indus valley by the invading ayrans of 1200 bce, we began with (as history will record) the Code of Hammurabi The Code of Hammurabi, which begat the Egyptian Book of the Dead , Book of the Dead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, which begat Moses' Ten Commandments ,Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , along with the Torah, Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, which begat the Hebrew Bible Hebrew Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which begat the Christian Bible, Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, which begat the Qur'an, Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia along with their respective talmuds Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , Cathecism of the Catholic Church,Haddiths, http://mali.pwnet.org/history/let2_islam.pdf etc.  were all written by man. Man makes mistakes in writing and in interpretation. And all this time nature was evolving daily.

Somehow this site will evolve to publishing the links more efficiently...half of the above were links to further explanation so the terms .

Thanks for your comment on http://www.isebrand.com about this Darwin post! I hope you and Peterman's Eye readers will consider being part of the Feb 12-15, 2009 Blog For Darwin blogswarm! :) I hope it's not too much off-topic for me to give the URL for anyone who might be interested: http://www.blogfordarwin.com. Thanks!

Thanks for your comment on http://www.isebrand.com about this Darwin post! I hope you and Peterman's Eye readers will consider being part of the Feb 12-15, 2009 Blog For Darwin blogswarm! :) I hope it's not too much off-topic for me to give the URL for anyone who might be interested: http://www.blogfordarwin.com. Thanks!

I'd participate today but unfortunately the webs between the appendages at the end of my arms are a bit stiff and my gills are all stuffed up 'cos I accidntly crawled back into the town gene puddle last night an fell asleep in it.

Jonathan, is that by any chance a UtiliKilt?  Luff the fireplace in the background...and the mandolin...and the guitar.

Stoney you have the best stories.  Did anyone video the play?

Why is it that when religion comes up, people always bring up "people have killed, stolen, etc...in the name of religion/faith"?  Haven't people always killed for other reasons as well, like fun, greed, boredom, and insanity?  But when you take the opposite of that, religion/faith inspiring people to do random acts of kindness and compassion, it is rare to find that people perform ats of charity because of greed or boredom.  You almost never heard "They donating money to help the poor in the name of their God" of "They helped the old lady change a tire because of their religion".  It seems religion always gets a bad rap for the inexcusable action of nutjobs missusing their authority, but it seldom gets good recognition for the infinite good it has done for humankind.

I believe that God and science are compatible, and that they are both bound by eternal and unchanging laws that govern all matter in the universe.  Some people seem to think that great miracles are accomplished outside the limits of science and natural law, but almost always you can find common threads and an explanation...it doesn't mean the miracles are any less meaningful.  Almost every rule has an exception or loophole as well.  God works through the laws and the exceptions.  I believe that if something seemingly can't be explained in a scientific manner, it is because we haven't evolved and learned and discovered enough to explain it, but that we will be able to someday.

Believing that knowledge is the only thing we can take with us when we depart this world, I try to learn everything that I can...whether I believe it to be true or not.  How can you learn the truth if you don't study everything and learn to decipher truth from untruth.  The world is a big, amazing place, we should all see and experience as much of it as possible and learn from those experiences.

Interesting and coencidental.  Just yesterday I write this poem.  Its a hobby of mine and yes ther eis a reason I keep most of it to myself.  I'll take the risk and share it.

Forever since our ancestors died, all things continue

As they were from the beginning of creation in this venue

We call earth. They deliberately ignore the fact,

That by the word of God of heavens existed a universal act

Long ago and before earth was formed, a prelude to a big bang

Out of water and by means of water, it was heard the angels sang

Through which the world of that time of man untested

Was deluged with water and perished where man appears vested

But by the same word the present heavens and earth

Have been reserved for fire, reexamination of mans berth

While the Greeks poetic expression did not specifically refer

To their concepts as "evolution", they did have to defer

Philosophical notion of descent with subjective modification.

Several different Greek philosophers subscribed to a congregation

To concept of origination, arguing that all things originated

From water or air. Another common concept was the idea propagated

That all things descended from one guiding principle forth giving.

Aristotle suggests a transition between the living and the nonliving,

And theorizes that in all things there is a constant desire and entwined

To move from the lower to the higher, finally becoming the divine.

In body of science, must we be so black and white?

Or can we express in metaphor and still be right?

In our true interpretation of our existence at last

So that we may visualize reality with past

Or without our earth born constraints we find leaning

Must we blind ourselves in the act of explaining

Gods work, with limits of a adolescent rational approbation

Of Darwin, Newton, men of scientific admiration

With the constraints of words not withstanding

Would both parties come to one understanding

I can't explain the double spacing above..sorry.

Hey I missed out on that link to the riddle poems.  Can anyone hlp me out.  I need to get that book...link

Inexplicably, all this innovation at the Eyester site and evolutionary talk ahs engendered in me the uncontrollable urge to cook. Last night, frittata; this morning, I made Mancakes (I invented them for the guys in the house-buckwheat, rolled oats, wheat and oat bran, and flax meal. Oh, and nuts of course). Now I must go and walk, to burn off some carbs.

Missy-Great to know you're better. Fever indicates an infection, and not food poisoning. So glad you've given up dumpster-diving. I warned you about that-no good can come of it. JK! *giggle, snort*

My thoughts on Darwin: We are all made of stars. Same dust, same elements, to which we will return in the fullness of time. And it took so long. The wheels of evolution grind slow, but they grind exceeding fine, it may be maintained. Luminous beings are we, exquisite in detail though imperfect in function. We may live and struggle in the trenches, but we yet possess astral aspirations. Here's tae us-wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid. Extinct, like...

Apologies to Oscar Wilde, Robert Burns, Yoda, and Anon.

Nachista,

I can't tell you how much I want to give you genuine high five right now. VERY well laid out and executed. C.S. Lewis would be proud. Logic and passion.

Stoney,

Awesome. We're performing live antics at our feast tomorrow, are Learner and Low available?

PeterLake,

Please remember your water wings, okay?

All,

As someone who believes in creation, and believes her God is CREATIVE (and ya'll know how much I value creativity), I personally find it insulting that you could imagine he would have not made us to adapt. Brilliant. Totally brilliant.

Imagine if my Mac could do that? Get crackin' Mr. Jobs.

Rings,

Actually, I often summer inside of a whale. Lovely, cool mode of transporation. You made me giggle. Can't believe JaimeLynn is missing this today. Her husby is a biology prof and we all know how she loves to debate.

Scott: I can't believe you think it's possible that someone could survive inside of a whale.

Jaime: Dude, bring it.

(two hours later, Scott half dilirious on hotel bed, Jaime bouncing on mattress over him)

Scott: Uncle, uncle, uncle

Jaime: And so you see, it's WAY possible. 

Well said, Nachista! 

And yes, it's a Utilikilt.  I've got several of them.  LOVE them.

Note that I give the bestial things done "in the name of" religion an out - misinterpretation.  This puts religious fanaticism on the same level as fun, greed, boredom, and insanity where it belongs, naturally.  

Nobody could possibly take umbrage at Christ's "Beatitudes" for instance.  That's good stuff, right there.  Even if you take the Monty Python version to heart, i.e. "Blesséd are the Cheesemakers..."  I don't think that anybody who believes in a faith as expressed in The Beatitudes could possibly do something hideous to another person for fun, or greed, or boredom, or insanity, or fanaticism.  

Regrettably, religions tend to NOT get defined by the Brightest and Most Beautiful expressions of their faith, and instead get painted with what the worst of their benighted adherents wreak on the rest of us.  That bit of failed perception is unfortunately part of human nature.  It wouldn't be understandable, if the stakes of letting the wolves into the sheeps' clothing weren't so high.  

And you finished up in the same place that I do, too, even though we're of differing faiths.  Namely, that it's up to all of us to Seek the Light, using our own gifts of intellect and will.  One should never shrug off the responsibility for one's actions or beliefs by using the hide-worn "that book told me to" blather.  

And so all of us link up arms, take along some leftover turkey sandwiches (I'm going to have LOTS), and march off into our purple mountains majesty.   As it should be.  

By the way, I'm claiming First Blood on the Eye for Thanksgiving preparations (until somebody sets me right);  I woke up this morning and not only made tea, but also made cranberry sauce.  Cranberries and orange zest simmered in raspberry tea, chilled, eaten loudly and with great zeal.  On everything.  

Miss Ive ~ Weren't we ALL tellign him it was possible &  a lot cheaper than running the AC on a hot summer day? I can remember parts of the conversation but I am still wondering if we REALLY converted him or not.  I will deny that it was all in the name of Religion but Nachista ~ I promise other than jumping up & down on the hotel bed there was NO violence involved in this particular Conversion....

Anybody ever wonder why no fanatic zeal to post the Beatitudes on courthouse walls? I do. The ten uh-uhs are so OT, and almost every fundy I've met is all mired in Leviticus. Tiresome. I'm with Gandhi here:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Fits the noisier ones, anyway...

mmmmmmmmmm cheese, I luff cheesemakers, they should be blessed.

Utilikilts are good stuff, I'm still saving up for a leather one.

Missive, I believe almost anything is impossible.  If I wanted to try and make the Jonah story plausible I could use evolution to do that...ie the whale disliked Jonah's loud music and the fact that he never paid the rent on time, so he and all his whale friends evolved into single family dwellings and passed zoning laws banning tennants.  Ta Da!

See??? Blesséd are the Cheesemakers.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/11/26/chittim.wa.cheese.deicing.king

Olivia, do you like Jackson Browne?  He wrote my all time favorite Christmas song called "Rebel Jesus", I make people listen to it when they refuse to accept that I feel differently about Christmas than most christians. 

All the streets are filled with laughter and light
And the music of the season
And the merchants' windows are all bright
With the faces of the children
And the families hurrying to their homes
While the sky darkens and freezes
Will be gathering around the hearths and tables
Giving thanks for God's graces
And the birth of the rebel Jesus

Well they call him by 'the Prince of Peace'
And they call him by 'the Savior'
And they pray to him upon the seas
And in every bold endeavor
And they fill his churches with their pride and gold
As their faith in him increases
But they've turned the nature that I worship in
From a temple to a robber's den
In the words of the rebel Jesus

Well we guard our world with locks and guns
And we guard our fine possessions
And once a year when Christmas comes
We give to our relations
And perhaps we give a little to the poor
If the generosity should seize us
But if any one of us should interfere
In the business of why there are poor
They get the same as the rebel Jesus

Now pardon me if I have seemed
To take the tone of judgement
For I've no wish to come between
This day and your enjoyment
In a life of hardship and of earthly toil
There's a need for anything that frees us
So I bid you pleasure
And I bid you cheer
From a heathen and a pagan
On the side of the rebel Jesus

Isles, Olivia and Nachista,

There's a gorgonzola, cream cheese, apricot and prosciutto dip that is a regular at our Thanksgivings that would second your motion for the Cheesemakers. Oh, yeah. I can feel my ass growing just typing that. 

There was a program on History channel last night, all about cheese.  High in Protein, High in Calcium...I'm thinking to myself "Score!  Cheese is healthy after all"...and then they come back with 'over 50% of the solid cheese mass is pure fat'.  *sigh* I can't win.

Having engaged in some dreadfully unfulfilling discussions on the topic with various friends of all shapes, sizes, and ages, I have come to the conclusion that science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Frankly, I'm not hanging my hopes on either one. And I'll find a better picture soon.

Lady Comrade,

Forget about a better picture.

Is it likely that anyone, on either side of this subject, is likely to change their minds? 

Lady Comrade,

Agreed. Lovely. Welcome. 

Paint your own picture, that way you make it anything you want.  Finger paints are in the bottom drawer, smocks are on the hook behind the door, try not to get any on the Thanksgiving Turkey, other than that...knock yourself out.

Caprichosmorales, it is possible someone may change their minds, the world is full of infinite possibilities.

nachista~if it's Ford vs Chevy, Apple vs PC or Mercedes vs BMW I'd think that you are right but when it comes to a belief founded on a religious faith, how can it?  Science based folks won't go there and faith based folks can't. 

Evolution and natural selection are DA BOMB.

Nachista, I disagree with your assertion that god and science are compatible. You stated "I believe that if something seemingly can't be explained in a scientific manner, it is because we haven't evolved and learned and discovered enough to explain it, but that we will be able to someday." I agree with that statement, but my problem is more often than not, when something cannot be explained, it gets the "god did it" label. In fact, that's how more primitive cultures tried to explain things that they didn't understand: with gods and myths. As science evolved, the need for gods diminished.

Currently, religious institutions try to squeeze their gods into what science as discovered yet they continually fail to provide evidence. As Jonathan isles so eloquently stated, scientist will and must be ready to fail. They will also change their theories as new evidence directs. Gods are supposedly infallible so man must try to alter realty to make sure the gods remain infallible.

Back when I was practicing Christianity, I used to believe that evolution and science picked up where god and the bible left off. Science is so much cooler and fascinating now that I don't have to try to make up reasons for where and how god fits into everything.

By the way, there needs to be a fourth option on the poll: "No. Evolution all the way." The current answers presuppose that god exists.

And Nachista, your philosophy about knowledge?

Believing that knowledge is the only thing we can take with us when we depart this world, I try to learn everything that I can...whether I believe it to be true or not. How can you learn the truth if you don't study everything and learn to decipher truth from untruth. The world is a big, amazing place, we should all see and experience as much of it as possible and learn from those experiences.

That's beautiful. Well put.

Funny thing that we live on a ball and yet persist in staking out "corners," taking sides and working to assign blame all while accepting very little personal responsibliy.

Tell you what I do. I look to see: Who's happy, how did they get that way and how do they maintain it?

Tip: It does not have a lot to do with being smart as being smart has so little to do with wisdom.

stoney~ I like the way that you think.  Do you read the TAO?

MissIve, I'm gonna need that recipe for the cheese/ham/ass-enlarging dip. It sounds like (think Luggage Man here) Just. The. Thing.

Still, I'm an adventuresome sort with the steely heart of a sea-faring Viking raider. I'll just go get some chunks of cheeses, apricots, ham, and start mixing. Or I'll go rowing up a shallow river where the poor people think they're safe, and pillage a village of their cheeses.

(Ready for what comes next?)

Cheeses: they're the reason for the seizing...

caprichosmarales states: "but when it comes to a belief founded on a religious faith, how can it?  Science based folks won't go there and faith based folks can't. 

Sorry I have to disagree ~ I just cant find this to be an absolute Truth. In one of my first posts I stated that my sister & I were brought to believe that both are possible. Yet it does not diminish my faith in the Bible, nor do I find it to diminish my belief in science & research.  You can get there, Not every "sciencetist"  is Sheldon from the show the  Big Bang Theory, there can be & there is for many people a happy medium between the two. Whether they work in the field of Theology or Science.   

In my own words:

I believe there is an all mighty creator of the infinite array of universes, I believe that the conscious spirit/soul is also eternal which means that I take Karma very seriously, I believe that THE creator(s) is/are the ultimate architect but have subcontracted the design and development of the worlds and individual houses of the soul and spirits to Evolution Ltd.. I believe that religion rationalizes that which we don't understand and hopefully provides good guidance to those that seek it and comfort to those who need it.

In the words of Neil Gaiman (who is a way better writer)

"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of the players, (ie everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time."

In the words of John From Cinncinati, ‘Some things I know, some things I don't'

Net-net, if it doesn't hurt anyone, it's all good.

Well okey-dokey then, let's eat.

BTW - I also believe that you all are some of the most knowledgeable, inspirational, thought provoking, good hearted, and wickedly funny folks I know and dog gone it, people like you.

Peace out dudes and dudettes!

Nachi-Love Jackson Browne, love Rebel Jesus! AND, even more important, CHEESE.

I will eat exceedingly, and prophesy...

so much for belief.

Nachista,

Thanks for the oblique reference to the red cabbage dish. It'll go great with the embarrassment of riches we have in fowl and takes me way back.

It was good even before it finished cookling. And let's face it, anything that leaves that much of a bottle of white wine for the cook will always be loved at least by him.

Happy Thanksgiving friends, whatever you believe.

Isles, I'm gonna need a kilt after I polish off that dip. 

PeterLake,

We: City folk, small towners and bimpkins all- salute your amazing recovery wondering what would be possible if you did it again? Cold fusion?

Peterlake, that is one of my favorite Neil Gaiman passages...Terry Pratchett has a similar saying but I don't have time to quote it verbadem.

Stoney I just tried to post about Rotkol, but the post went missing.  I believe it is a better compliment to the flavor of turkey than cranberry sauce and it wouldn't be Thanksgiving without it.

Faith and Science are very compatible, they are both about believing and seeking.  I know many members of my faith who are scientists or engineers and their science confirms their faith and vice versa.  My brother in law is an aerospace engineer and he says he finds God in every aspect of his work, its the people that are imperfect and FUBAR things.

Stoney,
I was lucky in that I hit the hardest and densest part of my body which protects my little pea sized brain. Now as far as cold fusion is concerned, it is all in how you isolate the .........

Be very well my friend
John