The Third Sex

The fact that people feel as though they have to treat this young person in any special sort of way, whether it be positive or negative, speaks to something rather ugly in the American psyche: it is just as natural, by definition, to be born intersex as it is to be born male or female. This is not a new phenomenon; it has, literally, always been the case. The fact that it makes anyone uncomfortable demonstrates quite clearly the inherent problems in our classic social gender roles. It shows how meaningless and arbitrary they really are.

I  am  looking  forward  to  checking  in  during  my  busy  Monday  to  share  my  friends'  insights  on  this  fascinating  issue.   Perhaps  the  next  10  year  census  will  need  to  be  equipped  with  a  3rd  box  on  the  question  asking  the  gender  of  the  resident:  "Neither  of  the  above."   I  cannot  even  completely  wrap  my  mind  around  the  concept  of  what  it  must  be  like  to  be  trapped  in  the  body  of  a  person  of  the  wrong  gender.

Instinct combines with  learned behavior to produce gender roles.  Across the globe, in every culture, we see the maternal instinct of a woman as she picks up a baby.  We see the need to protect and remnants of the hunter, gatherer model in men.  What we learn is etiquitte  and the social norms to fit into our community.  The number of people who are documented as born intersex is extremely low.  Civil rights issues for this minority continue to fly under the radar and will  do so unitl someone from this group gains recognition on the talk show circuit.              

well now, there you go.........how many men/males have ovaries and wombs?  let's get some digits on this.  will indeed be an interesting day.   i'm chasing dreams for a couple days, while ya'll figure this out. 
 
 

I'm with Bert ("I cannot even completely wrap my mind around the concept of what it must be like to be trapped in the body of a person of the wrong gender."). Since to the best of my knowledge I've never met a hermaphrodite/intersexed person, it is outside my experience envelope.  (Sure I've known/met trransvestites and butch lesbians, but that's not what we're talking about here...)

Julia:   It  took  Patrick  Swayze  for  the  media  to  focus  in  on  his  particular  type  of  cancer.  Now  the  topic   generates  interest  on  all  the  talk  show  circuit.  For  his  courage, Swayze  is  a  personal  role  model  for  me.  He  filmed  THE  BEAST  in  Chicago,  my  home  town, but  they  barely  finished  one  season.   A  &  E  Network  lets you  watch  the  pilot  on  their  website.  My favorite  themes:  criminal  law,  covert  ops,  and {at  least  regarding  the  activities  of  his  junior  partner  &  his  female  companion}  sex.  You  gotta  watch  advertising online  to  get  the  free  pilot,  but it  is  so  good  that  I  can  still  feel  myself  riding  "The El  {elevated  trains}."   Wrigley  Field,  Addison Avenue,  time  to  get  off.
Doc  Nolan:  You  gave  us  a  refreshing  bit  of  modesty,  admitting  nobody  knows  how  awkward  one  must  feel  with  gender  identity issues.

Check out Amy Bloom's book Normal. There are many varieties of "intersex" and, combined, they make "intersexuality" a relatively common occurence. The 1 in 2000 stat mentioned above is probably fairly accurate. Frequently, parents are asked to decide what gender child they want, and surgery conform to that gender is performed very early in life. As the myths from antiquity indicate, intersexuality isn't anything "new".
 
The cultural taboos around intersexuality must be amazing, because, for example, both Cystic Fibrosis and Muscular Dystrophy have similar incidence statistics, and "everyone" knows about them--we have massive events to raise funds for research into these conditions--but almost "no one" knows about intersexuality.
 
 

This is a very heavy topic.  Must give it more thought....so for now, all I wanna know is....What is the incidence of Asberger's??????

It is very difficult to wrap our minds around this, however, aren't there varying degrees of femininity and masculinity without labeling?  There are women who are able to achieve large muscle mass through weight lifting and exercise and men who display, what we perceive as typical feminine behavior such as nurturing their young.  Then, too, there are those who go through radical measures; surgical procedures, to relieve the agony of living in the wrong shell.
 
There is just so much we don't know, nor do we attempt to understand it until it hits us right where it hurts:  our own family. 
 
But, what my thought was when reading about this particular incident and this particular race, is that perhaps it gives a woman an unfair advantage in a race that is for women.  In that instance I don't think it was an attempt to lable her so much as giving everyone the chance to play on a level playing field.

Not to overstate the argument, but I do believe we are missing the point: the fact that sex is biological, and that gender is learned. It is very neat in the human mind to see a dichotomy between man and woman, and to subsequently assign each one a separate set of gender roles. However, this is simply a fantasy; a human idea, even if it is cross-cultural: just as the "universality" and the "constancy" of modern law must be reinterpreted to apply to people with special mental needs, so must our notions of "male" and "female," arbitrary as they are. This case proves how ephemeral such taken-for-granted ideas can be.

Incidence of Asberger's Syndrome: about 1 in 5000.

It seems to me that sex is biological, but that sex organs (testes/ovaries) rule in producing the hormones that influence gender. 

SHANDONISTA, my sentiments exactly...unless, like DocNolan, I can twist my brain around this. Always seems to come up in sports....

ps for any who question, I have many homosexual friends; this isn't what we're discussing

...and yes, ephemeral it is,hence our trouble grasping it -- not bigotry

There is an intersex child around the corner from my house.  Until recently, he always wore dresses etc.  Finally "his"  preschool demanded that he look more like a "boy."  I can't imagine how confused he must be and what the future will bring for him.
 
I agree with Bounty Hunter it is all biology and hormones.

Saying "it is all biology and hormones" after relating that story seems like a non sequitur to me. This intersex child was acting according to his/her inclinations by "wearing dresses etc" and it sounds like the preschool rather broadly overstepped its authority by telling the child the he/she is, in fact, a boy. Intersex people tend to choose a sex or gender to associate themselves with, and should be referred to according to that sex or gender. If this young intersex child prefers behaving in a conventionally "feminine" manner and is truly intersex, then we should respect the child's wished and refer to her as her. The same goes for Caster, who chooses to be female. And obviously this isn't a question of sexual orientation or bigotry; rather, it is an issue of sexual identity, and respecting the rights of the individual to determine his or her own personality.

This topic is yet another reason why I thank my lucky stars to have the relatively minor problems that I have.
 
Anyhow, it seems to me (based on discussion with a good sociologist pal) that sex is the physical aspect.  What sort of outward equipment do you have?  The South African girl has no ovaries or uterus but what about the external?  Does she have a penis or not?  Her internal organs are male and are producing male hormones.  One might think that in this case, she ought to behave and identify as a man but wait there's more.....
 
Gender is the identity portion of the equation - in her mind, she either chooses to be identified as a female, or perhaps doesn't choose (anymore) because her outward appearance is female and that's what she's been treated as. Her brain has no conscious knowledge of what hormones she's producing so how could biology decide what gender she is?
 
In a competitive sport, it seems like the hormones ought to be the factor we focus on.  If the other females in this sport tested positive for performance enhancing drugs ( such as the testosterone naturally produced by Caster Semenya) they would be disqualified for having an unfair advantage in muscle development.  I certainly sympathize with her plight but that she chooses to be a woman cannot trump the fact that her hormones give her an advantage over the other athletes.
  
 
 

Male, female, male homosexual and male bisexual genders are biologic rather than learned, and ample evidence supports this. As but one source of such information, I recommend reading As Nature Made Him, by John Colapinto. Most data argue that female homosexuality is acquired, not innate.

I have cared for several intersexed patients, including some whose sexual bizarrerie would not be appropriate for this forum. No tidy biologic or learned label fits intersexed patients because such patients occur in many varieties and permutations. One ostensibly male patient I had lived a life of depressed solitude because he said his situation is "too weird" for people to accept. His libido directed him to women, but no woman he met could ever deal with the fact that just behind his normal male genitalia was a normal vagina.

Alternative myth traditions have it that that the term "hermaphrodite" owes to the action of a jealous god who caught Hermes and Aphrodite in flagrante delicto and decided to make them one and the same.

Hermes is a wonderful designer house that makes neckties I crave, but I strongly prefer to pronounce Hermes as the Greeks did rather than as the French do.

For me also the debate about this is NOT whetehr she decides to wear a dress & lipstick over a suit & tie.. I really don't care how she dresses when she's not in the track field uniform.
 
What I do care about is the fact that men & women are built differently & whether or not this person had an unfair advantage because of the enhancing hormone levels her body naturally produces.  I'm with Shandonista on this one ~ She should not have been able to compete as a Women ~ Not becuase of being an intersex (IMHO that's just a mean word to use also..)  but because of her male dominated biology. 
 
Shandonista ~ Finding the Asbergers inquiry very funny... :)  
 
 
 

Re: Asberger syndrome.

In fact it's Asperger syndrome. The incidence is unknown, and cannot be defined as the diagnosis is not based upon any post-natal criteria.

Prevalence estimates for Asperger syndrome vary over three orders of magnitude, and are confounded by the fact that there are no firm or absolute diagnostic criteria for the syndrome.

Just as AD(H)D was once in vogue, so now are Asperger syndrome and bipolar disorder. Many people are inappropriately labelled as either because these memes are very contagious. Pharmaceutical companies are terrible vectors for them because they stand to profit from pill treatments regardless of what (if any) illness a patient has.

The incidence of AS is not well established, but experts in population studies conservatively estimate that two out of every 10,000 children have the disorder.  Boys are three to four times more likely than girls to have AS.     

Source: 

 http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/asperger/detail_asperger.htm

Just so folks know where I got my stats from...

KSS: Nice... pharmaceutical companies  =  vectors.
  

FRANTICALLY ~ Looking for the lid for this can of worms that seems to have been opened up...

For those who would say that gender roles are entirely learned, I say phooey. Put a group of very young children together, ESPECIALLY ones with "progressive" parents that encourage boys' nurturing sides and girls' aggressive ones, and you will see the boys playing more physically, using weapons instinctively (dolls make great swords) while the girls interact entirely differently (trucks can get along, too). There are shades of gray, obviously, but there is a huge difference between the sexes. Those that deny it are ignoring reality.

There, my most opinionated, and possibly hostile post yet. I guess I feel a little strongly about this one...

Kristina:  Right On!
 

Our book club read Middlesex, by Jeffrey Eugenides. It takes you through the history of a Greek family in Detroit and the main character who is of intersex gender. To get your head around what it must feel like, I would suggest this read. It is tender, insightful, and poignant, without being melodramatic.

Kristina:

I'd like to call your attention to R.W. Connell's 1987 study, in which she found that there is in fact no relationship whatever between biology and gender roles.

And even if these findings are outside of the norm for these sorts of studies, we need to understand that while hormones are biological, they do not necessarily translate into specific behaviours; such a misunderstanding is to take a tremendous leap of faith, assuming that what we are chemically explains what we do in society.

I wonder, what's the chemical composition of Shakespeare, or Foucault? Or of Hemingway, or Chuck Norris? Hillary Clinton, or Paris Hilton?

While our hormones influence us, it is society that shapes who we are. The is a greater range in humans than "having trucks get along" and "fighting with dolls." B. F. Skinner published extensively about how our behaviour is a result of positive and negative reinforcements, and as long as we cling to our outdated notions of proper behaviour for boys and girls, so long will we run into unnecessary conflict about gender identity.

Giuseppe:  Let's see, virtually all males (testes) behave as men and all females (ovaries) behave as women.   I fear your insistence blinds you to the 800lb guerilla standing in the rooom.

It depends~is the guerilla male acting as female? You gonna tell 'im?

Andy:   I  like  your  theory  that  masculinity/feminity  is  a  sliding  scale,  not  100%  male  or  100% female.  Defending  one  of  two African-American men  charged  with  raping/kidnapping  a  bisexual  man  as  we  speak,   and  I  am  learning   that  many  of  my  stereotypes  may  indeed  be  simplistic, or  just  plain  wrong.

Bert~ do you have dog experience? My dog mounts other dogs, not sexually, they are not "receptive"and I do not think it is with penetration in mind either. It is merely dominance. Female dogs do the exact same thing, mounting other dogs. Gender is not the order.   So, I am considering your case, what was to be gained by dominance?

Bounty Hunter: The only gorilla in the room is that of circular logic. In all societies, behaving male has different meanings; the fact that a male from the Minangkabau group acts like a male Minangkabau and not a male Frenchman illustrates the point that being male is a social role.

This old-fashioned thinking that males act as males and therefore it must be biological to act as a male is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and it is a result of circular thinking. Through the nineteenth century, it was thought that Africans had a better sense of rhythm than Europeans, because more Africans were more musical. This would fit your argument to the letter: Let's see, virtually all Africans (better rhythm) behave as Africans means that, hell, Africans must have better rhythm.

These are social ideas, not biological facts.

I have long been in agreement that boys and girls are very different creatures.  However, even the very young ones have been exposed to plenty of conditioning by their parents and society - nannies, daycare workers, TV, movies, other children - that influences their behavior.  
 
My daughter leaned in the traditional 'girly' direction, playing with dolls more than with trucks, but she requested trucks along with Barbies at Xmas time nonetheless.  Did I influence her choices more than her hormones did?  Who knows?  Who cares? 
 
 All I do know is that her first reaction (like many boys) to something icky and unfamiliar is to find a stick to poke it with....

Even the clothing choices we make can influence them before they are even able to talk. 
 
 How many of us 'progressive" parents still purchase clothes with pictures of trains and trucks for boys and pictures of flowers and cuddly animals for girls?

Hmm, does this mean I could actually learn to dance after all?
 
 

If I could learn to dance, anyone can.

Giuseppe  Catanzariti:   I   might  be  the  "anyone"  of  whom  you  refer......lol

I often use a quote from Einstien as follows, this seems to cover most situations.

"Not Everything That Can Be Counted

Counts

And

 Not Everything That Counts Can Be

Counted"

                                                                   Einstien

As any parent has experienced boys and girls are just wired differntly...to various degrees.  My son never had truck or whatever on his clothes and even had a pink sleeper.  A woman in the grocery storee saw him and instinctily knew he was a boy. 
 
 When he was in grammar school  he once told me he wished he was a girl.  I asked him why.  He said, "Because girls talk and tell each other things."  I asked what he and his friends did.  The answer was, "We play slaughter, of course."

What Peter said is spot on.

A final sort of point: young boys and young girls don't instinctively behave in any fashion other than "like young children." Through an implicit and elaborate system of positive and negative reinforcement, little boys know it's somehow "wrong" to play with dolls, and little girls know it's "wrong" to play with trucks.

Through the 1930s in the United States, infant boys were dressed in pink, which was considered a strong, passionate colour, indicative of the strength and passion of boys, while little girls were dressed in a light blue, which was associated with the Virgin Mary, purity, and nurturing.

If there were anything biological about our traditional concepts of gender, these colours would not have been reversed.

If there were anything biological about our traditional concepts of gender, a two year old baby boy raised in a sterile atmosphere outside of the influence of any culture, he would be asking, desperately, for a tonka truck or someone to roughhouse with.

And this is an untruth.

It's easy to miss the forest for the trees, and all of us being reared in this society as we have, it is easy to overlook the impact it has had on all of us.

And brides were dressed in blue up until circa th 1880's. 
 
What about it?
 
It's not about color, Guisseppe, it's about confusion.  And while I hate to be so blunt, I will be:  the confusion is on your part.
 
 
 

insert: Brides were also dressed in black.  A practical non-color so the dress could be worn again.  French influence on the very wealthy in this country during the "Guilded Age" is the reason for white gowns, an impractical color for a dress, and so one that only the very wealthy could afford.
 
Women's clothing then, like now, was dictated by finances and fashion dictates.  Nothing sociological about it.
 
Kids too.
 
 

It's somewhat interesting that (a) we care about intersex'ed persons, at least to the point of discussing them, and (b) that the conversation involves (to some extent) sports.  As one whose interest in both topics is marginal at best, I find the CONVERSATION itself as interesting (frankly, more interesting) than the topic itself.  As the oldest of seven kids, father of a boy, grandfather of two sons, and one of 30 first cousins (all either male or female), I think watching kids learn and grow is fascinating..... One side note:  For YEARS after the end of the Vietnam War (the 1970s) one could not find any 'war toys' in stores.  There simply wasn't any demand for them.  (I wonder why!)  And I remember the shock of gradually seeing them 'come back'... Having a very good memory, and having been raised in a 'good Catholic family' it has always come hard to watch kids rehearsing killing other humans as part of their 'socialization' process (aka playing).  As the years go on, it will be interesting to see if dolls/action figures for both boys and girls move from that niche to others (a la Clockwork Orange).  Films for post-pubescent 'semi=adults' (aka teenagers) have already begun to fill this void.  It will be interesting to see if the 'culture of violence' moves downward in terms of age.  (Conversations with inner-city teachers, mostly culture-shocked middle class women, leads me to think this is already occuring among kindergarten and early primary school kids....) What does this all have to do with today's topic?  Well, if one accepts the hypothesis that gender is simply a matter of culture and not about differential hormones, brain development, et, then we are all merely expressions of 'current culture'.  And from sexual roles, off we go to other roles (like becoming killing machines for the state).

I wonder if the interest in 'intersexed persons' is prurient, based on curiosity, an attempt to build new 'internal models' of our external world, an expression of our fears (perhaps for our unborn kids or grandkids?), or something(s) else/other....

PARK4: What am I confused about? I believe, as most modern scientists do, that gender is learned. Seems fairly lucid to me.

The example of colour is just one that serves to demonstrate that ideas about gender change with time, which illustrates that gender is not innate.

Also, if you do not think that sociology impacts fashion, then I think you must have a misunderstanding about what sociology is.

Sociology impacts fashion, yes it does.  If I wrote it didn't, I miswrote.  Fashion refects society, of course.
But I just don't get where you say that gender is learned, because that's what you modern scientists say.
 
Scientists change their minds all the time.
 
Some day, you'll change your mind or collective minds about this, and come up with an entirely new and "lucid" (your word) idea, because honestly if you'd raised kids instead of studying them, you'd know for a fact that before mommy gives the little girl baby the dolly and the little boy baby the truck -- there were big differences in the children's behavior that had nothing to do with anything other than their biology.
 
Society is a bad and terrible thing that does bad and terrible things to some people, but one thing it doesn't do is determine a child's sexual identity. 
 
Biology is destiny, society can't do a thing about it.

Today's discussion reminds me of the "nature vs. nurture" debate that has not only fueled much scientific debate over the years but provided excellent fodder for several "Three Stooges" shorts as well as one of my favorite movies "Trading Places" where Mortimer and Randolph Duke place a wager as to whether a well-bred Louis Winthorpe III will be able to conquer whatever challenges are presented to him, while an ill-bred Billy Ray Valentine will fail even if he is given many advantages over others. 

Personally I believe that the first instant that one of our species looked up at the heavens and asked "why"..... nothing was ever purely either black or white again. But since I wasn't there then, I can't be 100% sure.

I don't think the results where conclusive in these comedies and I doubt that anything will be settled to everyone's satisfaction here today.

If this is our biggest problem today then it just might be a good day after all.

Be well, everyone......

Non-scientific people like to point out that "science changes" and that "scientists change their minds all the time." Science changes, friend, because it is based on observation, and is a non-dogmatic approach to understanding the way the world functions. Scientists understand that nothing is immutable, and we can only communicate hypotheses about phenomena rather than knowing beyond a question of a doubt how or why they occur.

That said, it doesn't take a scientist to look at different cultures and see that there is a variety between what is acceptable for males and females in each one.

Even in countries as close as France and Germany, males and females are beholden to a different set of mores, and tend to act accordingly. But if a French girl were born and raised in Germany she would probably practice proper German feminine ideals, and if a German girl were born and raised in France she would probably practice proper French feminine ideals.

Imagine, if you would, a third society, in which after giving birth, women go off to work while men are responsible for the rearing of children. If a French girl were born and raised in this society, she would go off to work without giving it a second thought.

You may point out that such a society is only imaginary, and that is for a reason, but I'd like to counter that with the fact that men have always been in a dominant position in human societies, and those who are in a dominant position tend to make it difficult for the dominance roles to shift; look at modern capitalist lawmakers for an example of the ruling class making it difficult for anything to change substantially without tremendous grief.

Women are disenfranchised (and less so now than in the past) because of the nature of the governments in which they live; not because some kind of biological determinism.

This is demonstrated by shifting mores for women and men alike, and the modern liberation of women, who, fifty years ago, could not have been bankers, let alone CFOs of banks. Outside of general and unimportant physical differences, the sexes are inherently equal, not unequal, and if you cannot admit to that, you are, simply a sexist.

Gender, as we define and understand it today, is learned.

I beg to differ but I also think gender is nature.
 
It's in you from the day you're born.
 
To tired to fight this one.
 
We had to take Mom to the ER. She fell at 6:00 AM and was hurting.
 
She's okay just in pain but when you're 90 years old you go to the hospital if you're with my sister and me.
 
The ER visit was close to 4 hours.

korthal, My best wishes to your Mom and as always...... to you!

In the words of Austin Powers' arch enemy Goldmember...... I'm gonna retire to thesepia train and have a "schmoke-n-a-pancake"  Don't forget to turn out the lights.

PL:
 
Thanks, we're all doing well now.

If a French girl were born and raised in this society she couldn't go off to work without a thought -- without first finding an au pair for the house and children.
 
 
 
 

Good  grief,   I  finally  roll  in  the  garage,   and  stagger  into  the  house,   exhausted  but  confident  that  my  friends  in  this  venue  would  have  solved  the  mystery.   Instead   I   find  that  I  may  have  to  suggest  that  we  have  a  "shots  fired"  policy....but  at  least  your  ammunition  is  words,    unlike  the  Jerry  Springer  Show,  we  show  a  high  degree  of  class.....jmo    Ironic,  isn't  it,  that  my  teenage  daughter's  first  comment  is:   "Daddy,  after  work  tomorrow  will  you  take  me  the  place  with  the  Vietnamese   family,  and  treat  me  to  some  cool  fingernail  treatment?    Gotta  look  good,   since  everybody's  competing  for  the  attention  of  that  cute  new  boy  from  West  Virginia."   I  rest  my  case.

Korthal:  get some rest.  And best wishes to your Mom, I hope she feels better soon.
 
 
And PeterLake, is there room on thesepia train for me?  I could use a nice ride through the darkness -- over a bridge that spans the Mississippi in a couple of places.
 
How's that for you?

Click.
 
that's the sound of me turning out the lights...but there's a low light on the table over there, so you can find the light switch, when you want to come back inside and debate with Guisseppi.
 
Like korthal, I'm not up to it tonight.
 
night all.

Vbaker: You are confusing incidence with prevalence.

PARK:
 
I'm having a good time with, my Mom, sisters and son as you did this weekend with your grandkids.
 
But you know it is tiring.
 
Cooking, dishes, laundry, HOSPITAL.
 
More cooking and dishes.
 
We are having a good time though.
 
And my Mom hasn't been here for so many years I don't remember the last time.
 
So many of my friends want to see her again while she's here.

Giuseppe: The original notion the gender identity is amorphous and subsequently differentiated by learning came from the Viennese Quack.

The Connally study you cite had an a priori agenda, and is incongruous with many other studies and data.

Those who agree that gender is engendered by genes, let's all go have a champagne aperitif at the back of The Sepia Train, conducted no doubt by someone with an XY karyotype.

CHAPTER ONE
Park4 and korthal are correct-the preponderance of scientific evidence, and the OVERWHELMING personal referential and anecdotal evidence directly from transexuals clearly indicates that one is born not only with gender determined beforehand, but anatomical sex also, including intersexed individuals. Giuseppe, while perhaps well-intentioned, is far behind the times illustrated by current research in Scandinavia and the Netherlands, where autopsies done upon physically changed male to female transexuals who died of natural causes clearly shows that their BRAINS (especially a small area of the hypothalamus which acts to regulate hormones) are far more similar to that of a female than to that of a male. The inescapable conclusion is that your gender is between your EARS, not your legs. Regardless of the sexual organs of a child's physical anatomy, the child is born with a consciousness either male or female, according to current research, and current practice (at least among the more enlightened and compassionate members of the medical community) now consists of waiting for an intersexed infant's true psychological sex to reveal itself before any surgical alteration takes place. Puberty may even be delayed by hormone blockers, to give the individual more time to understand themselves. Giuseppe's references rely on the discredited publications of Dr. John Money, who established a long-held belief that a child could be 'turned into' a boy or a girl from the opposite sex simply by surgery and the application of hormones and socialization. This is not true, and has been disproved repeatedly. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, can change you from the sex your brain knows you to be.
Chromosomal makeup, hormones produced by the fetal brain or to which the fetus is exposed in the first trimester, have a powerful effect upon the sex of the individual's brain. This can not be changed with current technology or science, and the futile attempts to use coercive therapies to force a child (or an adult!) to accept their physical anatomy rather than their psychological gender imperative, such as the horrors practiced by the Portman Clinic in Britain or Dr. Ken Zucker in Toronto, are as doomed to failure as the previous and now discredited use of electroshock therapy on homosexuals to 'persuade' them to change their attractions. All are UNETHICAL and misguided.  
The cruelty inherent in Giuseppe's assertions is manifested as we speak in these clinical practices, and long-term results have been found to worsen the mental state of the individual rather than help them. The rare claims of 'success' turn out to be anguished individuals saying what the family and their torturers (that would be the 'therpists', or the 'doctors') want to hear so that they will just leave them alone.
There is another fallacy I have seen repeated in the current posts-that of 'choice'. i know you all, to a degree, and I know you all to be reasonable, kind, compassionate people, so I will ask you please do not take my attempts to bring some facts into the room as any sort of negative comment. I will ask you, though-WHEN DID YOU CHOOSE YOUR GENDER? Can you remember?
Neither can a transgendered person. None just woke up one day and decided to be other than what their anatomy suggests, and it IS only a suggestion, as we are learning. Zucker and his ilk want to call it a disease, and burn it out of those affected, as was attempted to be done to homosexuals. It is not a disease, nor is it a choice. One thing we know, amongst the small amount of knowledge amassed to date about ourselves, is that we are incredibly complicated beings exhibiting a barely-understood spectrum of behaviours.
Is being different from the statistical norm a sin? Wrong? Evil? A disease? As humanity has 'progressed' (an arguable term if there ever was one), a great deal of horror has been visited upon those who are different through no fault of their own, whether it be the superficial variations in skin tone, religious belief of the culture they were born into, even hair colour. Every culture has experience with intersexed individuals, and it is more common than previously believed. Development in utero is diverse, and results may vary, as the statisticians like to point out. This is only one way that mutation and adaption occurs.
We are complicated. We vary. We change. But we shouldn't fear, or hate, or persecute because of it. We should try to understand, and try to help.
We are curious beings, and we want to know WHY. That's not a bad thing, as long as our reactions are not intolerance and injustice and cruelty.  

Thank  you Olivia...well put.

OLIVIA:

You always say it better than I!

There's too much braining going on in here today.  I'm going to go sit in the Reading Car with a large scotch (with a small scotch chaser).

KORTHAL- so glad that your mother was not badly hurt. I know you'll take good care of her. OLIVIA- brilliantly said.
This is just an observation- it has been raining forever & so last Thursday I told my second graders that they could bring toys for recess. The 12 girls all brought their baby dolls, barbies, BRATZ dolls(if a fetish website sold blowup dolls to men - I swear they would resemble giant BRATZ dolls), and the big doll heads that you style. The boys brought cars, and lots of WWF wrestling figures along w/ a reproduction WWF gold, winner's belt. Also the boys had 2 days last week of making paper airplanes & zooming them at the door. Despite the loud noise created by 24 kids playing in a small enclosed space- not once did either the boys or girls leave their gender specific play area- they were as happy as tiny clams!Tomorrow- I expect the same.

CHAPTER TWO
The alert are no doubt waiting for this second installment, and also wondering, wanting to know WHY I know so darned much about this subject!
I am an expert. I know a little about a lot of things, but I know a lot about a few things, and this is one of them.
If I were born with a cleft palate, disfigured and ostracized, unable to function normally, and later in life I learned of a corrective surgery and availed myself of it, everyone would be so happy for me, and supportive, and really glad that I was normal now and functional and happy too.
Thousands of children are born each year with heart abnormalities, and new surgical techniques allow many of them to live normal lives, healed of the congenital defect that could have limited their life experience.
Medicine has made great strides in the correction of birth defects, and we are generally pleased and happy for the individuals cured and corrected by these innovations.
Unless it has to do with SEX. With GENDER.
Then many feel obliged to call down the wrath of their god, or to use it as a club to batter the sufferer. Many feel repulsion or loathing or fear and confusion. What's UP with that?
I won't go into the sociology of such bizarre perversions, other than to say that they are systemic, and related to the torturous illogic of religion or sexual hangups in upbringing.
Oh, there is ONE thing. I've heard some creeps say "Well, god made you that way, and he doesn't make mistakes, so you should be how god made you."
Tell that to the kid with the cleft palate. The baby with the heart defect.
My youngest brother is homosexual-he wouldn't mind me saying that, since he is secure in himself and who he is-and he is a normal person. Ok, a little nerdy, maybe, but kind, generous, calm, and faithful to his life partner, another nerdy nice guy. They've been married more than ten years, and have a comfortable and ordinary life together. I love them.
Homosexuality is not a choice-he learned that a long time ago. It's about who you are attracted to, and he didn't learn that. He was born with it.
He doesn't pretend to understand it. Nobody really does. It doesn't matter, in the long run.
Gender, or transgender, or whatever, is about who you ARE. Your very fundamental SELF.
I was born a female. However, to the best of my knowledge, and the best that I can reconstruct from those who will discuss it, I was born physically, anatomically, intersexed. The doctor, having a free hand and never imagining that a child with organs of both sexes might turn out to actually be female, constructed a male's anatomy.
Big mistake! 
The short of it is that I suffered a long time trying to be what everyone wanted me to be, good and obedient child that I was, and then tried my entire adult life to cure myself by doing what males do. I had marriages, children, guy stuff. I was fairly good at pretending to be male, but being 'on' at all times is wearing. Imagine being in a play, ALL THE TIME, EVERY WAKING MOMENT, and worrying about forgetting your lines or staying in character.
My life, until I realized that I didn't have to live that way.
So now I don't.
Some of you have met me, and you know I'm female. So does everyone else. How could I be otherwise? I AM a female! Shedding that facade was the most liberating thing I've ever done. There's no way to express how fantastic it feels to be NORMAL. Most of you have known all your life what normal feels like.
Not me.
And women generally 'get it'. Men, not so much. After all, some reason, why would anyone who could fake guy-ness want to be a woman? Again, like it's a choice...
It's not. My earliest memories of self-awareness were just like any other girl. I knew I was a girl, I felt like a girl, but something was wrong! Everyone told me I was a boy, and YIKES! I had boy stuff. Imagine waking up every day in the wrong body, and how excruciating it is to know that you've got to fake another day.
You can't. No one can.
So don't give me any arguments. I know, and you don't. All of you.
I have loved this forum so much, over the time I've been here, being accepted for who I am, a smartass chick with a little writing skill, that I hope I haven't upset anyone with my cosmic revelations. *laughing*
No, it's none of your business, and as my best friend tells me, I don't have to talk about it, but I'm comfortable here, and I see no reason to hide who I am. It's not like I introduce myself with my gender history (do YOU?)-the topic sorta nudged me, and I care about all of you and your understanding. Maybe I can help...
Everyone where I live and work knows me, who I am. Some people call me a hummingbird, for my energy and constant activity and high metabolic rate, but sometimes I feel more like a butterfly, having metamorphosed and become my true self over time.
Most people I talk to about this just yawn-'so what?" That's a GREAT reaction, since none of them can imagine me as anything other than who I am.
My men friends sure don't. Some are dimly aware that they benefit from my unique perspective, that's for sure...
People who've known me for a long time are just glad that I'm HAPPY now instead of the moody, withdrawn person I used to be. Hard to imagine, huh? I would never have written a word here...before.
Some of you may be tempted to think of me as someone who was born a male and became a female, but I'm here to tell you that is WRONG. I was born a female with a birth defect, as I described above, in the preamble to CHAPTER TWO. I made the best of my situation as long as I could, and then I FIXED it.
And now I'm well, and whole, and normal, and happy.
Thanks for your time. I love this place. See y'all later...

PARK4, - There is always room for you on theSepia train and I look forward to seeing you and the moon's reflection on the Mississippi.   Why I believe all of us have a berth with our names engraved on brass plaques

Beautiful, Olivia.  I am so happy for you and your whole and normal self.

Olivia, Thank you for sharing such an intimate part of your life with all of us. I am very glad you are now happy and well and whole and normal and, most of all, that you are my best friend in all the world. Pam

Good on you OLIVIA. I'm so happy for you.
 
Mom sends her thanks for all the good wishes from everyone. Thank you.

Olivia: I love the person you are.  Hiding one's true self, even from yourself, has to be agony.  No, I don't have personal experience, and I can't say that I know what you went through.  Because I don't.  I've been ostrasized (is that how it's spelled?) for different reasons, but never from myself. 
 
I am glad you brought up the homosexual connection to this.  I did have a friend in grad school who went through a similar awakening.  Before I met her, she had been engaged to a guy, thought she had her whole life mapped out.  Sadly, he was abusive (which had nothing to do with her revelation), and luckily she made it out with few scars, physical or mental.  She and I shared an office and were quite comfortable with each other.  I was the only one around with strong enough hands to give her a good shoulder rub, to ease the pain of a rather large set of femininity on her chest.  It never really went any further than that.  She had a girlfriend at the time, but was trying to convince herself and everyone else that she was bisexual.  She even kissed me (a harrowing adventure, as I had grown in my first beard at the time). 
 
But there was something wrong.  She pretended to like guys, told all sorts of stories of things I really didn't need to hear.  She broke up with her girlfriend (who was, quite frankly, and ass) and met a cute little butch girl in town.  Well, cute to her . . . she was a hockey player and was missing a tooth or two.  And it finally dawned on my friend.  She didn't have to pretend.  She didn't have to lie to herself about being into guys. 
 
The two of them married about 2 years ago.  I haven't heard much from either of them, as they have moved away, and I'm the world's worst personal corespondent.  But the look that came over her when she finally got it.  It no longer mattered what her mother thought, or her friends, or anyone else.  She accepted herself and became the person she was meant to be.
 
But she still came to me for shoulder rubs.  Her girlfriend wasn't tall enough to get the right angle.

And if Olivia doesn't get the Honor Roll for today, the world will no longer make sense!

Amen, MICHAEL!!!!!

Absolutely spectacular, Olivia, is what you are! 
 
But....may I please just make this one observation....you know a helluva lot about a helluva lot.  I have learned so much from reading your posts. Thank you.
 
 

OHB - Such  a Bonnie Lass you are, and such a dear friend indded. John

Olivia, go, girl! :-)  You've been a friend for more than two years, now, and 'brought me here'.  Now, after all this time, some (just some) of the pieces I couldn't quite fit together are making sense.  Don't worry; I don't want to completely understand you... that would imply you are both frozen and not very complex...but it is somehow reassuring that my 'mystery lady' is just a wee bit less an enigma than before.  (I hope you like the coffee; post office is first thing on tomorrow's list!)

I second Michael's comment above!

Thank you for being just what I thought you were...kind, understanding, compassionate, and more.
Now if I could just stop crying.
Hormones and a heart-to-heart with friends will do it every time-and as I told Pam, I think I got my period too.
TMI? Oh well, that's kinda ME...

OLIVIA- I'm usually in bed by now as I get up at 4:30 a.m., but something made me check in. I saw your second post- skimmed- read some comments & then obviously went back & read your post thoroughly. It must have been heartbreaking for you growing up. I sort of read this topic w/ a roll of the eyes- you brought it home in a way I could never imagine- I will never look at it in the same way or as casually as I may have before. You're right- you are all woman- brave, strong, true, & beautiful. Rock on OLIVIA!!! (I am crying as I write this to you.)

Danged weepy women.  Now I'm going to have to go do something twice as manly just to make up for you all.
 
Anybody seen my chainsaws?

I gave them to the delicate lady nest door.

Biological sex and sociocultural gender are different, and I find it curious that many Americans are often so leery of using the term S-E-X that they substitute "gender" when they mean biological sex.

The default developmental path of the human embryo is to become a female. There is one region of the Y-chromosome, which when present and activated, results in the hormonal stew that usually leads to development as a male. ("Usually" because those born testosterone-insensitive will develop female, despite being genetically male.) Those born inter-sexed traveled part way down that journey.

The brain is most definitely a sexual organ, and somewhere in that difference between males and females lies our sense of identity - so it is perfectly possible (for example) to feel female but have male genitalia...

Interestingly, in(at least some) reptiles sex determination is determined by the temperature of egg incubation...

Oh, I do love nature's variety!

And Thank You, Olivia, for sharing your story.

  
Olivia,

"the topic sorta nudged me."

Isn't that what Beethoven said about music? Einstein, about physics?

You are not only the oak beam supporting this joint but the granite piers that hold it up as well.

If somebody doesn't love you, it ain't me.

Stoney

Olivia,
I just now read your post.
My god, lady, but you are brave.

I feel like I just met you -- and I'm so glad that I did.
 
thank you, Olivia, for this sharing, and I do hope you've stopped crying!  No need for tears, no need at all.
 
p.

Olivia:  Thank you for you are a gift.

Sex and Gender are Different:
Sexual Identity and Gender Identity
are Different
 
Milton Diamond, Ph.D.
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/intersex/sexual_I_G_web.html
 
I've met and loved all variery of men and women......

  Sex and Gender:
Same or Different?
Milton Diamond
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
John A. Burns School of Medicine
Department of Anatomy & Reproductive Biology
Pacific Center for Sex and Society
Honolulu, Hawai`i 96822
mailto:diamond@hawaii.edu
Phone: (808) 956-7400
Fax: (808) 956-9481
 
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/intersex/sex_gender.html

Before this day is closed to comment, I want to say thank you one more time.
 
THANK YOU ALL
 
*tiny voice* and grid bless us every one...
 
Oh well-almost all serious. The thank you certainly is from the deepest heart of me. I'm a lucky lady to be in your company, and I consider you all my friends.
 
*blows you all a kiss* MWA!
 
Olivia