A Black Eye

I don't know if I want to go over this one again.  I was bullied as a child.  I skipped about 1/4 of my 6th grade year because I was too nervous about being bullied. 
 
Maybe I have some lingering anti-social behavior from that, but mostly I'm over it. 

I was a bully. I was bullied,too. I was fat andobnoxious. I grew out of it. I had lots of time alone. I read a lot. I grew up. I helped the bullied. I am no longer fat, and I try my darndest not to be obnoxious. I can not imagine how hard it must be to grow up in these times now.

And we had "video games" when I was young,too....you rubbed a thick piece of plastic film with a flannel cloth,and it stuck to the screen on your TV on Saturday morning,and drew on it with"special crayons" to save.....Rinky Dink ....you were a hero!   And then Mighty Mouse saved the day...boy, that is a whole lot different then todays vids....

Am I the only one that sees a correlation?

RY:   It was, WINKY  DINK .......   And they weren't actual Crayons, like the ones made by Binnie & Smith ... they were sticks of Parafin with Food Coloring in them ... They made neat little fire starters, once one tired of drawing on Saran Wrap .......
 
Mighty Mouse was one of my favorites, because they were all Operattas, cleverly and very well done ... Mighty Mouse and his bunch did several different versions of Carmen, and a couple of renditions Gianni Schicchi, plus a number of other well known Operatic and Symphonic pieces .......  It was Bugs Bunny that usually did one of Wagner's pieces, as he pummeled and tricked Elmer Fudd ... He was such a Bully .......
 
Do you remember when Mickey Mouse was named, Mortimer ???  Or Oswald Rabbit, from the Theatre, long before Television ???  Even back in those days Bluto was a Bully, but Popeye always came thru ... sucked down a can of Spinach and went back to bounce Bully Boy Bluto all the way into the next county ....... That was back in the days when we still had feelings of, Nationalism, Patriotism, and Good Citizenship ... and tho' we never realized it then, Cartoons at the Saturday Morning Picture Show (Double Feature, Cowboys or Horror Flicks) were teaching kids how to be the best examples of all those things ... There was a Moral and a Happy Ending to every Cartoon, and certainly all the Cowboy Pictures ... The Bullies and the Bad Guys always lost ... and thats a good thing .......

My  daughter's  school  has  a  written  zero  tolerance  policy  regarding  bullying,  same  for  the  other  area  schools,  and  the  policy  is  posted  on  the  school's  website.  It's  hard  enough  to  get  kids  motivated  to  attend  school  and  concentrate,  nobody  needs  bullies.

There's a little irl in my room- 2nd grade- she's beautiful & smart. She is also the BIGGEST bbully. Trying to keep track of everyone she is tormenting is a daunting task. She lives to get into other kids' business & pick, pick, pick. If she is like this in 2nd grade- I shudder to imagine her at 12...
Then I met her mom & it all became clear...
Monster teen mom, monster little girl.
When she is not fighting w/ all of her classmates she is doing excellent work & helping out her classmates & in the classroom.... go figure.
 
Pumpkin Patch field trip today-YAY!!!!!!!!!!!! Have a lovely day everyone.

that would be girl w/ the actual g & bully w/ one b- duh...

Bebe: Imagine her at age 22, or 32.... over the years I've gotten better and better at identifying sociopathic wannabee customers, bosses, coworkers, etc.... but the learning curve has been steep.  

BEBE:   I  see  the  same  thing  in  court.....abusive  violent  bullying  parents  produce  kids,  boys  AND  girls,    who  wind  up  inthe  criminal  justice  system  as  arrestees  with  identical charges  and  behavior  patterns  as  their  parents....the  apple  doesn't  fall  very  far  from  the  tree.
 
Note:  The  Columbine  shooters  in  the  terrible  Colorado  high  school  shooting  situation  had  in common  the  fact  that  they  were  victims  of  bullying,  rejection,  &  ridicule  from  other  students.   Never  an  excuse,   but  an  explanation,   and  we  can  help  prevent similar  events  with  zero  tolerance  bullying  policies,  including  requiring  parents  to engage in  the process  of  readmission  of  their kids. 

I suspect (but can't prove) that those of us who were bullied as kids developed a lot of strengths learning to cope with 'all that stuff'.   Better abuse at the hands of other kids after the age of five or six (after we begin to be 'people') than the abuse by 'parents' from birth to age five.  I've known -- in depth -- people who were subject to THAT and the damage from that is permanent and did NOT strengthen them :-(  .   We live in a world that is much more dysfunctional than we care to believe, and -- for better or worse -- we are all survivors.  One would think that humans would band together to defend themselves against the sociopaths among us, but the tendency (as I see it) is rather to deny reality than to either accept the unchangable, flee the overwhelming, or change the correctable.  To this day I don't quite understand why my son, once bullied along with several of his friends, didn't organize his friends (as I suggested) to resist.....  

.....and how about teachers who bully?  I was a victim; two of my children were.  Why is that not addressed as well?

good morning all! 
 
recollections of childhood school days can be fuzzy.  i don't remember being bullied or there being bullies in school.  the teaches were respected and the rules were pretty simple.  there were black and white rules with few if any gray areas, that i can recall.  there was competetive extra curriculum activities where you were allowed to excell on skill, but only if you first did well in school.  yes there was football, baseball, basketball, golf, tennis and track, each with their own cheerleaders and support groups, but even choir, band and honor choir and honor band required you do well in the basics first before being able to participate.  education was equal opportunity, where if one excelled you could go on to compete in the debate teams and school plays for a chance to make your mark.  if you didn't make the grades...period...you couldn't participate, period.  the time frame was the 50's and 60's i graduated high school in 1970.....i do still remember the national news of the school civil rights, just over the river bridge in little rock, and remembering...what is that all about...we, just back over the river, same county, had blacks, whites, asians and all rode the buses, and the fussing on the bus, wasn't tolerated either, or you had a long walk.  we didn't get into sex issues until biology, much less adult sexual preferences...it was a different time..fuzzy perhaps....
 
 
 
 

Good  morning,  Doc  Nolan,   and  allow  me  to  be  the  1st  to  remind  you  that  the  2nd  week  in  November  is  "National  Split  Pea  Soup  Week"  in  the United  States,   has  been  since  1979.   Yesterday  I  was  the  gratuitous  recipient  of  a  giant  mug  of  homemade  cream  of  broccoli  soup,  and it  really  took  the  edge off  what  otherwise  would  have  been  a  gloomy  Winter  day......     Does  this  mean  that  I  am  a  wonderful  coworker,   or  is  it  a  sign from  coworkers  that  I  perhaps  have  been looking  a  little  puny  recently?  

Andy:   We  need  a better  way  to  evaluation  system  to  rate  and  retain  good  teachers,  and  to  weed  out  those  teachers  who  are  part  of  the  problem,   not  part  of  the  solution.  The  process  of  deciding  who  stays  and  who  should  depart  must  be  a  fair  one,  however,   especially  where  the  criterion  is  somewhat  subjective. 

Bert: If split peas are bipolar (left-handed and right-handed halves), perhaps your co-workers are trying to a-peas both halves of your personality ;-)   The real question is 'Why broccoli?'  

Way off topic:  In 1-1/2 hours I'm off to San Antonio (210 miles) to spend the day with a friend from high school and her husband.  We reconnected at our 45th high school reunion.  Promises to be a great day despite seven hours of driving to spend six hours eating and chatting....  (They're in Texas for a teacher's convention.)  She was very helpful to me when I was a 'lost soul', afflicted with teen/early adult emotional issues.  Some of us never forget.  And some of us are totally nuts (what... you're driving 420 miles to have lunch and talk?).  Have a great day, folks! 

Doc  Nolan:   Broccoli  was  despised  by  the  George  Herbert  Walker  Bush,  and  he  was  man  enough  to  admit  it.   Could  my  friend  be  trying  to  recognize  my  independence  of  ideas  in  the political  arena?    Or  perhaps  it  has  something  to  do  with  the  chap  who  helped  make  some  of  the  James  Bond  movies,  he  was  named  Broccoli,  Semilegal-Paralegal  knows  that  I  have  a  penchant  for  espionage  &  detective  movies.....  Doc,  your  fascinating  ability  to  see  things  in  life's  prism  that  NOBODY  else  detects  is  one  of  the  many  reasons  why  I  enjoy  your  virtual  friendship  here.

Bebe, you are I in the best position to stop the violence as we both work with kids.  I was bullied in High School because I didn't fit in with  the socio-econmics of the neighborhood.  It was a case of reverse discrimination.  The school was not much help.  I made good grades, especially on standardized tests so they did everything possible to bully my mother into making me stay.  The compromise was that I "unoffically"  graduated early thanks to incredibly good guessing on the SAT in 9th grade. 
 
I'm involved in  a children's charity and several literacy and education programs in Sunset Park, Brooklyn.  This is a neighborhood  with a 50 % drop out rate. Fortunately, the principal at one of the newer elementry schools understands the connection between bullying, academic failure and poverty.  She has partnered her school with several organizations to teach the students and teachers how to handle conflict resolution and bullying.  This has been the focus of her school and staff development for a dozen years.
 
My  charity works with the whole family and provides mentors who make bi-weekly home visits.  This has really helped many families cope with stress and domestic violence.
Early intervention is the key and good role models. 
 
Bebe, if  you can bond with this little girl you can change her life, but you also have to get around her mother.     

Yup, we grow out of it, get over it, and move on...some of us.
 
I was the skinny, buck-toothed girl with hearing aids in 1964, and got the crap beat out of me day in and day out on the playground and school bus. Black eyes, split lips, bruises and scrapes galore. "Boys will be boys," I was told; "keep to yourself." I hated going to school. I hated getting on the bus. I hated recess.
 
When I was in 4th or 5th grade, my dad taught me how to fight back to defend myself, since no one else was doing it. The end result of that was the principal telling my parents "I've got 5 boys who look worse than she does, and their parents want to know why I don't expel your demon daughter". Ye olde double standard again. Girls who act like boys are punished, one way or another. I didn't do anything to those boys that they hadn't done to me, and I did it as 1 against 5.
 
I learned a lot of interesting lessons about human nature, but they were obvoiusly painful, and I think the scarring process has distorted my personality in ways that are ultimately contradictory, ineffective and unproductive. I do not believe the experience made me a better human being.
 
But I grew up in a houseful of firearms, learned how to shoot at age 7, had my own rifle at 10, my own shotgun at 12, and a pistol permit for protection at 18, and never once had occasion to turn a gun on another person.
 
$0.02, fwiw, and I hereby relinquish the soapbox!
 

bert - I'm glad to hear your daughter's school has a zero tolerance policy but I'm willing to bet all schools do these days.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though.  especially among girls, the behavior becomes very clever and difficult to define.  It's hard to claim a person is a bully when you could just as easily say they are merely being a jerk.  In addition, there is no rule that everyone has to like everyone.  Legitimate dislikes exist and just because Sally dislikes Polly and behaves accordingly doesn't mean it's bullying.
 
Now, on the other hand, the side of the victim - which is the side my child has been on several times - disliking someone doesn't give you a pass the mistreat them.  She has been physically bullied (by girls) and we brought that to a stop pretty quickly - as in, as soon as I found out.  That's the easy one to stop.  The psychological bullying, in my opinion, is impossible to stop because maladjusted, unhappy people are continually pumping out tiny bullies who grow up in their image  Unhappy creeps will always find a way to exploit the weaknesses or good natures of good people.   
 

As for why kids don't band together to fight back, I wonder, too, Doc.  The schools preach this method, as I have, but my child won't do it.  I would love to blame someone or something for this but I think it's just part of human nature - or at least American human nature (not that I dislike that).  Perhaps we all feel like we're supposed to handle everything on our own.  I felt that way about many things when I was younger.   I started to change when my dear hubby pointed out to me that the reason I was taking a chemistry class was that I needed help to learn it.  I wasn't expected to know it before I got there - otherwise I wouldn't need the class!!  DUH!
 

I was bullied throughout my 7th and 8th grade years, by a tough, relentless girl and her group of friends. Bullies find safety and boldness in numbers, too. Doc Nolan said "To this day I don't quite understand why my son, once bullied along with several of his friends, didn't organize his friends (as I suggested) to resist"..... My friends and I would not band against anyone. I was simply not of that ilk, nor were any of my friends, and I did not want to be just like the very people that were terrorizing me.

In my case, these girls were very careful to do their worst out of sight of the teachers and when my friends were not around. I slowly came to realize when I acted meek and showed fear it empowered them all the more and the abuse was worse.

Eventually...

I learned avoidance, especially when they were together as a group. Individually they weren't quite as brave.

I learned to never be caught alone, but to always stay where teachers and other students were present. The front of the classroom ,or front of the bus, was much safer than the back.

I learned to act calmly, not to panic, and never let them think I was afraid. Being timid and letting them see fear only seemed to fuel their feelings of control and dominance.

I learned to use conversation to diffuse situations. I would attempt to seize control of the moment by speaking first and immediately start commiserating with them about our teachers, homework, parents, and using whatever humor I could come up with to try to illicit a laugh.

By the end of 8th grade, they had given up on me...I can't remember if they changed or simply moved on to a more satisfying target.

I'm glad this problem is being brought out of of the darkness and into the light. Violence is escalating in our schools (a reflection of the ills of society?). As more and more individuals seem to reach a breaking point, both bullies and their victims are crying out for help.

I was one of the outcasts in jr high. Not physically bullied, but emotionally attacked almost all the time. I was leaning toward the "freaks," the pot smoking bunch, because they almost seemed to accept me... if I did the drugs, too. Luckily, in 9th grade my family moved and I found myself in a school where the kids didn't know I was fat and ugly (I wasn't) or any of the other nasty things my former classmates told me I was. Turned my life around, and got me back on track. I really don't know what would have happened if I hadn't switched schools.

I know that isn't a solution for most of the outcasts of the world.

But it did give me compassion for suffering kids. And in hindsight (and at class reunions) I realize that the mean kids did what they did in order to feel better about themselves. Fact is, I was smart (they weren't) and pretty (they were, too, but who can see that in ourselves at that age). Maybe they weren't consciously jealous, but they had to tear somebody down, find someone to be better than. And these were not classic bullies, just those horrible 11-13 year olds.

It seems like that old "self-esteem" monster is rearing its head, and I hate that. But if kids truly understand who they are, that they ARE valuable to people that matter, then, well... I don't know. This all sounds like so much inconsequential psychobabble.

I think the subject today is the physical bullies, and I haven't got a clue. Some days I feel like I haven't got any clues...

Nothing good can come of being a victim.   The tightrope suspended between  self defense and self contol is devoid of a safety net.
 
We need to weave a network of protection for those at risk for violent behavior.  We need stricter laws for first time offenders of everything from bar room bawls and domestic violence to cyber bullying. 
 
School systems should change the motto from     child left behind to no child left a victim.

Instead of tying  teacher performance and school budgets to test scores we should award budgets based on improving the social emotional  education and curriculums that teach civility. 
 
After all, no child can read with a black eye. 
 
 

I am sitting this one out today. I was bullied and tormented from 3rd through 11th grade. School was not a very safe place for a small, scrawny kid who was not the most masculine or macho and thus judged wrongly so. Rumors and accusations would fly about me. I got into a lot of fights, defending myself against the bigger & stronger boys. Sometimes I would win, and other times I would lose, but the bullying would never cease. It's been a dozen years since high school and I'm finally getting over all the crap I went through, which no kid should ever have to deal with.
In my adult life, I've seen the bullies all grown-up. They tend to be the obnoxious jerk which there seems to be one of in every work-place. Through brown-nosing and the old phrase "I'm just kidding around," they get to keep their jobs while the people they belittle dread going into work, being powerless to stop it.
I really don't want to end this on a down note, but there's really no other way to do so. I'm not going to pretend I know what makes people tick, or why people need to do horrible things to one another just so they feel better about themselves. What I do know is that despite all the years of saddness and pain, I never acted like or broadcasted myself as a victim. I was wise enough to know that if you appear meek and downtrodden, you're treated as such and those that did the bullying win their power of you.
No one should hold that kind of power over anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHpi7A9L2OY
 
those tunes of yesterday's topic played in the background of our parents homes as history unfolded.....perhaps we over corrected and the pendulum one day will rest in the center..calm...where all things are equal....in the after life.

Daniel - your story saddens me.  How many kids have, and do, suffer just like you?  Far too many.  When I think of the kids who bullied me or tried to, I always think of the comedian who eschewed the idea of going to his class reunions.  "I don't need to know what happened to the captain of the football team - he's mowing my lawn now."  So many of those bullies - some who were cheerleaders, athletes, or other overachievers - reached their peak in life in high school.  For many of them, it's all downhill afterwards.  Not so for us, the folks who may have looked or acted or dressed just a little different.
 
Recently on Facebook, a girl who threatened to 'kick my a@@" back in the 8th grade because she thought I was trying to steal her greasy little boyfriend has now sent me a friend request.  She boldly states that she is "an amazing person."   Seeing that simply adds more evidence to the research saying that criminals have incredibly high self-esteem.
 
 

What Julia said...
"The tightrope suspended between  self defense and self contol is devoid of a safety net. "
 
so true.
 
And Kindlee...
avoidance, position, courage, communication
All the best strategies, though difficult to teach and sometimes harder to learn. They work.
 
And Daniel...
The bullies seem never to outgrow what works for them; the luckiest victims are the ones who learn to heal and cope.
 
Cognitively speaking, all humans are animals...some of us process our limbic impulses, instincts and reactions more effectively than others, and that's a sophisticated skill that takes time to acquire.
 
another $0.02
 

i believe it was doc, but i'm not certain, that brought the book to my attention on the eye.....deep survival, who lives, who dies, and why by laurence gonzales...i gave a copy of the book to everyone in my family.....whether they wanted or not, some read it..some ? 
 
"in deep survival laurence gonzales combines hard science and powerful storytelling to illuminate the mysteries of survival, whether in the wilderness or in meeting any of life's great challenges.  this gripping narrative, the first book to describe the art and acience of survival, will change the way you see your world.  everyone has a wilderness inside."
 
i'm done....going back to playing music and being a dreamer with dreams to dream.  y'all have at it.  i'll read.

Boy, it would seem as if the girls herein have really had it rough. I had no idea. But now let me offer up an observation ; these girls are the ones with the ability to communicate that experience. Now I must wonder, cause and effect?  I remember a young man of my aquaintance,told stories of an abused childhood,spent much time alone,and learned to play guitar and sing. He was very good.

Bebe, I know of your such 2ond grader, where is seems not as 12 but as an adult her bullying antics live on.  There is not a physical aspect, but more a wolf in a sheepskin a clear "one-over' I am better than you domination full of inappropriate bravado and threats.  As adults you learn to walk away.  In schools I admire your attention to adressing the problem and recognizing it is not just a boy thing nor is it just a physical combative thing. 

RoadYacht, you bring up an excellent point. I am able to express my experiences and thus deal with them and find ways to get something positive out of bad experiences. But those people who can't express it? How do they heal?
 
I wonder if one of the things that cause a person to become a bully is that they aren't capable of communicating their distress and frustrations in any other way...

That may be an aspect ;frustration at not being understood...How many times have we slamed,slappe,poked a balky computer?

First I had to muse at the early response suggesting that you can grow out of being fat. I took that into my morning set of meetings. Bullying is wrong and it is manifest in many different ways. I'll speak to children and then if I have time get around to adults later today. The following speaks somewhat to the point Kindlee made.

At the schools where my younger children attend they now have an enforced bullying policy that is taken seriously. I am a friend of the mother who saw that policy through as she shared with me the experiences her son was going through. Keep in mind I met this friend at our local karate studio where we pay to see our sons attack and defend. (kick each others butts). In the end there is a high degree of mutual respect the students have in each other and a greater degree of self confidence they have in themselves outside karate. I asked my friend two years removed from the instatement the new policy, if she is at peace with where he son is at. She said yes, not because of the school policy but because of how her son better handles outside pressure. And that is not to say the policy is not a good thing...and maybe it was a thing we can be appalled that was not there anyway.

Now years ago my elder son experienced bullying when he was in second grade. The school bully happened to live right next door. This son was also a student of karate at his choosing being at the effect of the teen age ninja turtle phenomena. So we are a family of Black Belts. In his karate they taught Might for Right where the first move in self defense is to walk away and when the threat continues the best score in a fight is not 33 - 22 as you see in the cartoons and in Hollywood, but one - nothing. So against that back drop, early on I noticed the next door neighbor kid wailing on my son as he took his seat on the bus. My son told me that was not the first time. I did not take it to the school as maybe I should have. But I rather counseled my son to stand his ground. Well about two weeks later I received a call from the school that I had to come in as my son was in a fight. When I got to the office, I looked at him sitting in the Principals office next to "guess who" and his dad sitting next to him. I said "TJ what happened?" He said two words; " one - nothing" . The bully's dad said, it's about time someone put my son in his place. From that day forward the two boys became good friends. My son is working on his PhD and the other is a fireman helping people. I think it's good to learn those life's lessons early on.

Its our job as adults to create safe environments and guide our children through the knocks in life. And at the same time safety as everything else begins with you.

I have watched reserved people slam their mouse on the table during a chore....cleaning it would work, but that is nowhere as satisfying as some demonsterable emotion....

WOW!!!    I just  returned  to  my office,  and  was  greeted   with  the  numerous  and  fascinating  posts  that  came  in  since  earlier  this  morning.   It  is  very  gratifying  that  so  many  who  experienced  the  trauma  of  a  victim  are  willing  to  come  forward  and  share  their  experiences.   We  as  inhabitants  of  the  same  planet  sure  seem  to  go  out  of  our  way  to  make  life  difficult  for  each  other.   On  the  positive  side,  however,  I  see  the  momentum  for  change.   I  wonder  each  &  every  day  how  to  make  my  daughter  better-equipped  to  handle  the  situations  that  she  encounters  as  a  high  school  student.  The  baby  girl  I  held  in  my  arms  in  my  avatar  profile  photo  will  be 16  in  December  of  this  year,  and  the  world  is  still  a  scary  place.   She  doesn't  want  to  learn  self-defense  or  how  to  use  a  weapon,  and  that  is  consistent  with  her  nonconfrontational  personality.   Hopefully  she   has  been  a  quiet  student  of  how  the  significant  adults  in her  life  handle  adversity,  anticipate  problems  before  they  happen,  and  never  become  cynical.....  the  solutions  are  not  completely  out  of  reach,  just  complicated  and  frustratingly  slow.

Dancing Katz--You obviously don't need me to tell you, but you have "best survived," and may all the good things in life come your way.
 
RY--I do think girls have it rougher than boys--bully boys beat up boys and girls, but bully girls, generally, only beat up other girls. The raw numbers make it worse.
 
I understand that the wholly verbal cat-clique in-fighting between pre-adolescent and adolescent girls can be brutal and painful, but I tend not to classify that as "bullying" and rather define it as bad manners and insecurity run rampant in poorly supervised circumstances. I suspect that sort of behavior is substantially less destructive to its victims.
 
I tend to classify "bullying" as the physical and emotional savagery that occurs when a child who is truly "different" in one way or another is singled out for attacks and verbal abuse by peers who seem hell-bent on the destruction of another individual who is perceived as a challenge to the way they want their world to be. The peers who do not actively participate in the brutality are helplessly complicit because they don't have the skills or courage to effectively stop it.
 
It was interesting to me that the really "disabled" kids were not bullied--not only did they have more adult protection and supervision, but they were almost never targeted when they were alone. It was only the kids who were seen by the bullies as a threat to their status quo who were molested.
 
Those of us who are "outcasts" often have a richer experience in our solitude, and benefit greatly from it. From the vantage of middle age, I can appreciate the strengths I developed. Nevertheless, I still perceive in myself the perils of that "tightrope between self-defense and self-control."
 

Shandonista,

I can't help but to think banding together would start nothing but a gang war. I think it is classic of the bullying type to prey on what he or she sees a vulnerable. That bully may surround him or her self with their own sence from "security in number." usually when they do they are blind to any numbers you may think you have on your side Matching that only exacerbates and escallates the war. I think Kindlee says it well. If you put it out there as being vulnerable you are prey upon.

So that said I'll reflect on my own story of almost getting my butt kicked by the school bully. I am not sure if the story puts me or my position in a good light or bad, but at least you know wher eI am comming from. I was not one of those easily victomized kids. I was popular, played football, wrestled and put it out there that I was who I was. I had numbers on my side. I always wore a Jackie Stewart sports cap. Well one evening me and my friend Billy were at Burger King after a night of racing my 1960 Tbird up and down Telegaraph Avenue. While standing in line the 19 year old Senior and school bully came up to me and said "I like your hat, give it to me." I said "not on your life" or something like that. Well as we were walking back to my car the bully was waiting for me. He said something like "I am going to kick your arse and take your hat". Now the first thing I said to my friend Billy, was "Billy I could use some help he's twice my size" Billy says, "no I'm for a fair fight" Thanx for nothing Billy. So I say to the bully "comon mother ...er lets go" He looked at me and smiled. Naugh your alright, by the way I like your car.

Safety in numbers only gives you a place to hide. And that ain't all bad. But when your found and its your turn, stand your ground.

I haven't gotten to the adiult version of bullying. But I think with my schedule EYE time this afternoon is slim to none.

Recently, I dealt with bullies on the healthcare level. Too many nursing home are staffed from the honor roll of Nurse Ratchet's School of Medicine.
 
Eighty is the new five, as octogenarians become as helpless as pre-schoolers. I spent 13 months fighting my mothers battles with phone calls, humor and blogs.   The latter seemed to be the most effective.  
 
If the pen is mighter mightier than the sword, and research is the best amunition maybe  someone would organize a virtual fight to get some anti-bullying, pro-intervention legislation passed. 

Having been an occasional victim of verbal/emotional bully by girls, VBaker, I disagree that it is less painful or damaging.  The problem with it is that it makes the victim wonder what is wrong with him/herself.  The answer, of course, is nothing.  But in those first years of puberty, we are desparately trying to fit in and be part of something.  We're already vulnerable - the last thing we need is someone openly mocking us or excommunicating us.
 
On two occasions in the seventh grade, girls who claimed to be my friends would create a "secret admirer" for me, complete with written love notes and even gifts, in order to trick me and make me a fool.  The first time, it took me about a day to figure out it was a trick but they kept up the pretense for quite a while.  The second time they creatively added an actual person (a brother) to the mix. I never bought it but was interested in how long they could keep it up.  What does this do to a young girl?  It teaches her that even friends will cut you to the bone and that people are cruel liars.  That is a hard lesson to overcome.  And the main reason I generally detest practical jokes, for their purpose is also to make a fool of someone.
 
As as adult, it is easy for me to see that my daughter's bullies are children of divorce or have other issues but she cannot understand that.  I see her beauty and intelligence and likability and I know that some of the bullies are just jealous.  Perhaps some of my bullies were jealous of me (no beauty but I had good grades) but I would never have accepted that excuse at the time.  Physical or emotional - the damage can take years to understand and overcome.
 

Paul - the banding together is not intended to escalate anything - the idea, I think, is to add disapproving eyes to the situation and use peer pressure to show the bully that no one accepts that behavior. 
 
Yeah, right, now back to reality.....
 
 

"Jake  Satterfield,  socially  disrespected,  hitched  his  team of  horses  to  the  wagon,     and  headed  for  town.
A  cussin'  crow  perched  on  his  shoulder,   a  Springfield  rifle  in  his  hands....with  the  sight filed  down."
.................It  doesn't  hurt  to  let  the  bullies  know  that,  should  they  mess  with  you  just  one  more  time,  you  are  prepared  to  terminate  their  worthless  existences,   with  extreme  prejudice.

Shandonista--I thought I said "I understand that the wholly verbal cat-clique in-fighting between pre-adolescent and adolescent girls can be brutal and painful".
 
I do think that sort of behavior less damaging, if only in the sense that they all (both the perpetrators and the victims) tend to grow up and recognize it for the shallow and immature behavior that it was and move on. Of course, it helps to have a mother who reinforces that idea, as you clearly are doing with your daughter, and my mother did with me over that kind of clique-ish cattiness.
 
The violent physical and emotional abuse that I define as "bullying" is the stuff that my parents (at that time) were powerless to put a stop to. I had several injuries that resulted in trips to the doctor--the worst was in second grade, when I got a cracked pelvis from getting my fingers jumped on while swinging on the jungle gym. I let go (silly me), fell, and caught a lower crossbar between my legs.
 
When I refer to "damage," I mean damage that is not only humiliating and soul-corroding, but coupled with profound physical degradation that intensifies the both the physical and emotional pain. 
 
There is, however, humor in the situation I describe above. I couldn't appreciate it at the time, but after I got home from the doctor's office I had a good laugh when my parents explained what the perpetrator (male) of this particular instance of bullying meant as he danced around me as I lay on the ground, crowing "Ha Ha Broke Yer Nuts!"
 
True story.
 
 

In our elementary school we have a 5 step procedure called De-Bug: Ignore, Walk Away, Speak Friendly, Speak Firmly, Get An Adult.  Most kids get it.  All the staff is aware and participating actively in it.
 
Middle school is another issue.  And boys are soooo different than girls.  There is an inate sense of respect for an enemy with boys that I don't see at all in my daughter and her friends.  They can love ya one moment, hate ya the next.  Also, for reasons I can't explain parents tend to let middle school kids handle their own problems.  While there is a place for that, I usually come away with, "Are you kidding me?"  They aren't ready for a lot of the problems their peers are facing at home.  And that is the baggage that breeds bullying. 
 
A complicated world requires more sane adults than are usually present.  As for our home:  the policy is, tell us before you think you'll throw the first punch.  Then we can discuss the frustration and anger and sometimes diffuse it. 
 
Lastly, when my son was in 6th grade he had a teacher who ignored continual bullying for at least  six months due to a prejudiced opinion of our skin color and my son's perceived attitude.  It was triumph to watch my son manage his anger, take responsibility for his own part in the problem, talk through possible solutions with us, and ultimately express the difficulty to school personnel while still befriending the teacher by the end of the year.

I much prefer a civilized, respectful approach ... but there are times when a Two by Four between the eyes, is the only way to get the attention of a Jackass ....... One must ask himself, who is NOT going to be affected Positively by the administration of wooden wisdom, and consider all consequences ... but when in doubt, just do it ....... It is a whole lot easier to get Pardon than it is Permission ... I learned that after an experience I had as a younf boy ... I had prayed in earnest for three years for God to give me a new Bicycle, and never got the Bike.  I finally figured that He just doesn't work that way, so I stole the Bike, and asked Forgiveness ... All's Well That Ends Well ....... (Yes, I am horribly flawed, but I have never denied that ... it is the ones that will NOT admit that they are flawed who grind my ass ... but there is a place for them .......)

So the great American myth about NYC kids being tough has been shattered by reading these posts.  Your memories of growing up in in Maryland and Ohio have me stunned.   I never would have survived  out there.
 
Boys beating up little girls would never have been tolerated on any of the streets where I lived.  The other kids would not have allowed it.   Street kids stick together.   They would have taken it upon themselves to find justice by appealing to the boy's mom.  
 
The Dad who 'blew off" Dancingkatz's parent's would have been ostracised at the bar or billards hall.  And none of the mothers in the PTA would have spoken to that kid's mom.   They'd soon get the message, straighen your kid out or move!      
 
Boys duking it out with boys and girl on girl action were usually worked out among the kids.  Most parents were like Paul's fireman friend if there kids was a bully.   
 
The scary issues never emerged until high school.

Indeed you did, VBaker.  
 
I am really amazed at the stories of girls being bulliedand abused by boys.  That would not have gone off where I grew up.  The majority of the people were uneducated and many just plain rednecks, but men did not behave that way - there were a few standards.  Often times, when I hear or read about what others have lived through, I realize just how lucky and unscathed I have been.  This is one of those times.
 
I'm with Jalopkin, sometimes a dose of their own medicine wakes them up.
 

I just remembered something that had happened in 8th grade.  On my side of the street there were only two Italian families.  No one ever made any ethnic cracks to me, but the boys in the other family,  Tommy and Robert, would get tormented daily.  They had a good sense of humor and kept the bullying at bay with one liners.  They were really funny kids so I awlays liked walking home with them.
 
Around November, one exteremly large 4th grader started picking on Robert and threatening to get him when his brother wasn't around.   One day when Tommy was absent, I waited for Robert after school.  As we were walking home the fat 4th grader started his nonsense.  Sunddenly, he threw a punch at Robert, who fell forward and knocked the fat kid on the gound.  Before either of them could get up, I pulled the fat kid's shoes off of his feet. Then I ran and threw them in the nearest mailbox.     
 
I told Robert to run home.  The fat kid started crying and cursing.  I told him to stay there and I'd get him help.  So I went over to his apartment building and rang the bell.  Through the intercom I told his mother that  her son was having some sort of nervous breakdown on the corner by the mailbox.   
 
That kid never bothered Robert or anyone else in the neighborhood again.      

Shanda, I was thinking, while waiting for a response in a tel con, about when I was in second grade, and this thought has not crossed my mind in 45 years at least, about my  2nd grade girl friend Holly Ethrington.  Yeah I was the guy that had to hold hands, and fall in love before anything esle would happen. And in second grade...I was unaware of whats next anyway.  Well the a boy from Miss Clayborns class took to picking on Holly.  So I came to her defense, only to find that I was no match for the boy who was picking on Holly.  Of course I found out the hard way, but in that fight my friend saw how un fair the fight was and jumped in.  Soon there was an old fashioned rumble that stopped immediately upon the bell.  Well we had scheduled rumbles every afternoon recess while the girls watched.  For me at the time it was romantic and surely thoughtless. I guess there are two reasons why I share this.   Thing one: as an adult I have my share of childhood issues that I had to grow out of.  We all do. I take those issue like the Fonzie metephor.  As I sit in my chair my daughter says so affectionatly "dad, your getting round on the edges and your hair is turnng white."  I look in the mirror and still...put the comb back in the pocket....puzzeled over where the white is.  (there is not a black hair on my head) Point is so far  through this dialogue it sounds like eventually we all do let go of bad things.  Sooner than later is always a good thing.
 Thing two:  Whats changed...well we are more aware of those social issues.  We talk about them more.  As a result we take action as we collectivly decide that that is not the society we want to be.  Like generations before us we want the generations behind us to have it better.  We have clearly become a more compassionate society over teh short time I've been on hte clock.  I think we got that way through free, frank and careing dialogue.  We are smarter now than in 1962.       

The effectiveness of anti-bullying laws and procedures varies from locale to locale, seeming to be determined by several factors: parental, teacher and neighbor involvement, reporting and record-keeping requirements at all levels from the individual school, school district, municipality, county and state, and the local culture and mores.
 
I think the biggest problem comes from not having methods of reporting that allow a school (and others) to see how many students are being bullied, how many students (and who) are doing the bullying, the methods of bullying used and the situations/locations in which bullying is done (between classes, on the school bus, on the playground, in gym class, etc). Without knowing these things there can be no way of determining if a program is effective and aiding the children/teens involved. The report Mr. Peterson mentions above about the weak spot in Georgia's anti-bullying legislation is a prime example of how failing to have proper reporting procedures and follow-up can make such legislation useless.
 
I think as concerned citizens we should all (whether we have children or not) investigate the anti-bullying laws in our own locales. Find out what your state and municipality define as bullying and what the laws say is to be done about it. If you disagree with the definition or feel that changes need to be made to the procedures the laws set forth to make them effective, get in touch with the appropriate government body and lobby for change.
 
In the United States we have the freedom and ability to be an active participant in the law-making and changing process. This isn't a partisan subject, either. It shouldn't matter which political party or philosophy you espouse, if you were a victim of bullying and remember how miserable it made you feel and how hard it made your life then it shouldn't matter if the person you are working with on creating effective procedures wears a different emblem.
 
Given how many of us posting here seem to have been victims of bullying as children or teens, I think there is a large enough body politic to make a big difference. If nothing else, contact your local school district and see exactly what their anti-bullying procedures are, and look up your state's laws. Then decide what you think about them and act accordingly.

Julia, I know exactly the New Yorker you are talking about.  No where else do folks come together like they do in NYC.   My favorite New York minute was when my wife was crossing 34 Street from Macy's to Penn Station with one kid in a stroller and my other on a trike.  Her cell phone dropped form her pocket.  Imagine all that traffice, pedestrian as well as car, freezing while a guy runs from behind, picks it up and gives it to her, saying "excuse me you dropped your phone".  Then the motion/comotion ensues once again. That ain't regulation, that ain't laws, that is character...people doing the right thing.  

This link will take you to the Ohio Board of Education's Model Anti-Harassment, Anti-Intimidation and Anti-Bullying Policy:
http://education.ohio.gov/GD/DocumentManagement/DocumentDownload.aspx?DocumentID=29538
 
I think it is a good model policy, particularly in that it realises that students are more willing to come forward and report bullying to their teachers if they can be guaranteed anonymity, and that it includes not only bullying on school property, but also at school bus stops, and at school-sponsored events whether on or off school grounds.
 
I'm waiting on a call back from my local school board to see whether they have adopted the model policy in entirety or just the parts that are required by Sections 3301.22 and 3313.666 of the Ohio Revised Code. I'm hoping they adopted it in entirety.
 
I just wish something like had existed back when I was a kid.

I'm not happy with this one, Dancingkatz.  There is too much wiggle room in the investigation process of a corrup designee or principal. Doesn't Ohio have a strong teacher's union?  That is what is needed to ensure that the pricipal is accountable.  Bais can over ride rational decisions unless you have some kind of union backing to ensure that  if the designated investigator is an untenured teacher (or classroom teacher of the child who is being bullied) seeking justice and not just going through the motions to get the principal and the kids parents off her back.

When I was growing up, Born and reared in the South and blessed to be from a Family of Independent Means, like all other White Boys of my Station ... I was Nursed and reared by my Mammy, in a Kosher Household ... Between my Dad and Mammy I was taught everything I needed to know in order to conduct myself properly and with Decorum while experiencing life and getting an Education ... We all learned how to treat people, how to treat Animals even, and I learned the deepest meaning of a Yiddish word ... RACHMONES ... the best translation of which is, Compassionate Respect (Rock Moan Ess) One of the first Rules to comply with the tenets of that concept is, that Boys do NOT hit Girls ... No matter how badly one might want to, no matter if she hits you first, no matter that she might really deserve a good smack ... Boys do not hit Girls ... We may have to shoot 'em, but we don't hit ...  It is a little daunting to even consider going against what one was taught in his youth, but when a Girl/Woman pops up out of the ground, with an AK47 barking a staccato in your direction, and missing you only because the Gun weighs more than she does, and it walks terribly when being fired on fully Automatic ... Rather than permit further risk of one's being hit or one of his company, the expedient to alleviate the risk and possible deadly consequences, is to put a Round in her eye ....... That is the most effective Diplomacy there is when dealing with people who are devoid of Reason ....... In truth, it is difficult to tell the Girls from the Boys, and it is equally difficult to tell if they are ten years old or one hundred ... They ALL wear Black Payjamas, and they're all built like Olive Oyl; A pencil with feet ...  Self Preservation Instinct takes over and one does what one must do ... But in general, Boys Don't Hit Girls ... and in places where one finds some brutish lout assaulting a female, one is Honor Bound to step in and stop the cad from continuing the barrage ... We are fully justified in using the fullest measure of force, (short of deadly force, unless it IS the only option) to defend and protect a Woman, Child, or any person not physically able to defend himself ... (that is one of the reasons I miss Dueling ... Even the Old Men have a chance with Pistols) I was probably born a hundred years too late, but I know for sure that I would have missed indoor plumbing and Cars ... especially my '64 GTO) At any rate, it boggles my mind that these instances seem still to occur ... seems we're still crazy after all these years ...

Dancingkatz... seeing the Ohio link I looked at your bio. You are 30 miles north of me. Glad to have ya on board. While I absolutely agree that what is being done at the schools is a good thing, I prefer on many levels Julia's New York way as a first line of defense. Once things get in the"public works" the efficiency factor too often times diminishes.

Cut to the Chase

I heard from a mom friend who once she said; you want to get a bully kids attention, say where's your mother, I am going to speak to your mother. Grab your cell phone and say I'm calling her right now. Its amazing how efficient and effective moms are. They don't want to be bullied, and they do not want their own to be a bully. MOMs RULE!!!
  

Interesting that no one has admitted to being a bully in the poll today.  Although I've known many bullies who claimed they were acting like they did to PREVENT being bullied themselves...everyone is a victim it seems.

RE: Julia Masi - Thanks for responding to my post. Ohio does have a teachers union to my understanding. I'll do some more research and see what watchdog provisions there are to ensure that an investigator does their job without bias. I don't have kids of my own but I have friends whose children I love dearly in the elementary, middle and high schools in the area, so it's important to me that they be protected. And three cheers to you for helping your friend in 8th grade.
 
RE: Paul Murphy - Hi Paul! It's nice to meet you. I think it will take a combination of the "NYC factor" and "public works" to come up with workable solutions to the bullying problem, with the degree of each to be variable according to the culture of the locale. And yes, Moms do Rule!
 
nachista - Perhaps people who were bullies are worried that they are going to get slammed if they admit it? I was a victim then, but I'm not now. Also, my mother and Dad would have had my hide if I'd turned to bullying to prevent other people from bullying me (though I'm not sure how effective that would have been, given that I was the shortest person in my class and was out-weighed and out-reached by everyone else). But today, there seems to be more vehicles for bulying than there was back in the 60s. Bullying has gone electronic as well as retaining it's physical presence. I just had to worry about the bullies in my small school hitting me and calling me names. Today, there's cyber and phone bullying to deal with as well.

nachista: I don't think bullies identify themselves as bullies. Bully has negative implications...more so I think than being a victim...
 
The formal definiton of bully is: a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.
 
Most people would not like to see that when looking in the mirror.

Damselfly:   As  Jack  Nicholson  said  as  the  sergeant  on  the  witness  stand  to  Tom  Cruse  as  the  Judge  Advocate  General  officer  investigating  the  death  from  hazing  of  the  enlisted  man,  "You  can't  handle  the  truth."   None  of  us  would  be  comfortable  with  a  true  mirror  image  of  ourselves,  we  all  clean  up  the  rough  edges  to  allow  us  to   stand  ourselves.
 
I  am  watching  the  Fort  Hood  shootings  story  out  of  Texas.   Meanwhile  Paul  is  welcoming  our  mutual  neighbor,  DancingKatz.   Hi,  neighbor...

Cyber bullying is very scary and we need laws to protect us against against emotional harassment. But first we need some real consequences for people who use others as punching bags.  Physical brutality should  not be  trivalized.  Even the slightest push or punch can cause severe injury.  Accidents happen.  No one should have to look back on their childhood and remember mistreatment.  And no one should go home to a spose, partner, teenager or roommate who hits.
 
 
If a child is a bully then the parents are  in need of some counseling too.  If your boss is a bully then there are some control issues behind the actions.  People who feel as if they are in control of their own lives are not bullies.   

Julia,  you  are  correct,  the   "fix"  of  bullying  is  of  necessity  something  that  must  involve  the  parents  or  guardian.   The  acts  of  the  child  are  a  red  flag  to  teachers,  other  parents,  neighbors.......specifically  because  of  the  fact  that  apparently  nobody  at  the  home  thought  to  pay  attention,  make  corrective  action  a  priority,  or  even  see  their  family  as  interactive  and  mutually  obligated  to  the  rest  of  the  community. 
By  the  way,  I  liked  your  "mailbox  solution"  in  a  previous  post.  Thinking  on  your  feet  and  doing  so  quickly  is  a  true  gift,  as  is  your  caring  writing  style.

Counseling. 
I hear counseling as the curative for everything and everyone.
 
I can't buy into counseling.  The people who need it most are the people who won't get anything out of it because they don't want to.
 
They like to bully.  They like to be mean.  They'll push and shove and be the big mouth and the bumper pusher and horn blower and finger giver -- because they're mean SOBs and nothing -- expecially counseling -- will stop this kind of person (male or female).  Except someone bigger or meaner.
 
I don't think we can throw counseling out there as the universal palliative -- some people are born mean and they'll die mean.
 
I think the best and only thing to do is to stay out of their way, as best you can.
 
But counseling?  No.  If counseling was all that great a solution, we'd have way fewer bullys around, but here they are still, and all the social programs in the world won't change them.
 
 

Really interesting posts all. The zero tolerance policies sound good on paper, but you must have a principal who will enforce them. I teach in a small town where everyone is related to everyone & so he does not want to rock the boat & so things do get swept under the rug. Sad, but true. No teacher unions down here, so you have teachers scared they won't get a contract. Then you have the racial element & that causes its share of tiptoeing. I think you try & reach the children you teach- show them what being kind & having self control is all about & deal w/ all of the little torments that happen.
My beautiful little bully gave me a hug at bus duty & proudly showed me her pumpkin. The sad thing is that these children often see life in a Jerry Springer sort of way- attitude, hearing adults curse & say inappropriate things- so of course they model that. Fighting back is a catch-22- if you don't fight back you often get creamed & if you do you too get in trouble.
 Hearing your tales of abuse was horrible- I was never bullied per se, but it's so hard to believe that kids can be so cruel.
 
ANDY is correct- there are teachers & assistants who bully children- there are some really sick people in education. Moms w/ giant balls seem to have the best luck at stopping their child's tormentor- mainly because these women won't back down- they go to the principals, superintendent, & the board. They demand to be listened to & they are.
I have no respect for teachers who look the other way as students torment each other. On a positive note- kids quickly learn which teacher to go to if something not kosher is happening to them. I have lots of kids coming to me...
 

I'm glad your students trust and respect you. Its a  tough job but you can have a really big impact.  I think its harder when you are in a small town where everyone is either related or knows each other.  
 
I hope that your town/school district  has good strong people who work in protective services.  
     

JULIA- I wish we had someone like you! No, they all know each other- there's a lot of looking the other way. I almost think to be a principal or a social worker you SHOULD NOT  live in the town where you work. Not realistic, but it would cut out the favors & people getting away w/ horrors. Maybe...

Shandonista,

I some how missed that the banding together always starts with an agenda of disapproving eyes. In my experience in life, it turns in to a cat clique, that starts setting standards of social expectations that leads exactly to the same place. When at the airlines I had 75 folks under me and 15 were women. They were the hardest group to keep off each other I ever managed. I witnessed social bullying like I never imagined on each other and men alike. I heard things that would embarass a sailor. I witnessed broken marriages due to the social pressures levied by these people.  My boss commanded Clovis Air Force Base, told me that of the thousands of troops he led the hardest to manage were women for which he only offered condolences. I spent 95% of my HR issues on 12% of my work force. When it came to hireing new people the women would independently come to me and plead for me to hire a man, because the stress of another women would be too much. Yet these same folks seem to think banding together is a good idea. Why does such a good idea seem to have such a bad ending? Why tell this story or ask this question?  You read herein many cases in youth that its the girl being the bully, yet a disproportionate amount of attention is spent on correcting the boys?  Why is that?  I am asking because I am at a genuine loss for an answer.

Actually, you hit the nail on the head.  Some school districts want teachers and staff from the neighborhood, as they think it will help the parents relate to them.  This can backfire.  Too much of a personal history or connection cause the authorities to look the other way.  In the area where I work, I know just about everyone but I don't live in that neighbood. I'm about a 30 minute subway ride away.  Still, I don't like to eat in the resturants in my neighborhood or hang out in Brooklyn much because I inevitably run into someone that I have a work connection with.  I have nothing to hide but I don't want to know everyone else's business.  By creating a hedge of neutrality around me I am able to remain objective. 
 
Sometimes things get swept under the rug because they want to give someone a second chance.  Sometimes kids are fast with fists because they are going through something like a divorce, new stepparent, new baby or sick parent.  But sometimes its because there is serious abuse at home.  Sometimes when people know a family they don't suspect domestic abuse.  By letting little things slide they could be putting kids in danger. 
 
Bullies and their families need counseling. (Siblings are often victims too.)
 
Thanks for the compliment.  

Bert, I think that parents should be involved in the evaluation of teachers.  Ceratinly some should be selling shoes and not playing with our kids' heads.  There are those, sadly, all too few, that I would be willing to subsidize, but then there are the others.  As small sampling:  My son's first grade teacher had, at the end of the semester, eight children in her class with school-related illnesses.  One of my daughters had a teacher who never missed the opportunity to suggest that since her father is a "richjewishlawyer" perhaps she could treat for pizza or whatever else was his agenda that day.  Allowing these people to attain tenure is a crime and yet, it happens over and over again.
 
Then there are the coaches.....oh my....don't get me started :)
 
Nice "talking" to you all.

Julia:  how do you get bullies and their families to practise what they are supposed to learn in counseling?  I am curious, this is why I ask.

ANDY- A teacher actually used "rich jewish lawyer"???????????????????????? U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E!!!!!!!!!!!!! What did you do?
On the other hand- having parents evaluate seems impossible to not let personal issues in & seems scary. This is said from someone who strives hard to have good relations w/ parents & pretty much does.

Paul:

Your anecdote above is quite fascinating, and I am glad that you presented it.

It makes me think of Norman Rush's novel "Mating," which won a National Book Award in the nineties. Its protagonist is Nelson DeNoon, a pioneering social theorist, who elementally believes that bullying and displaced bullying by males is the core problem of social structures.

In the Kalahari desert, he starts up a colony in which men are deprived of all rights to own property. The ensuing gynocracy, however, leads to a society ostensibly far worse off than if men were in charge: tyrannical female cliques, subterfuge, petty but vicious revenge, and centrifugal instability. This is as observed through the eyes of a female narrator living in the colony and completing a PhD dissertation based on her observations.

So. Bully for matriarchs, I guess.

karma swim swami~ "Mating" is an entertaining work of fiction.

PARK4~  To get the parents and kids to practice the skills they learn in counseling means making them accountable to someone for their actions..  The clients at the charity are all assigned a mentor who visits the family in their home twice a month.  The parents are also given a counselor who works with them one on one.  When the mentor works with the kid he also contacts the school and meets with the teachers.    Mentors meet with the kids  in the afterschool  programs and Saturday programs.  Then when they make home visits they are able to identify some of stress that triggers the bullying.   It takes time.  The mentors make a big commitment and sometimes work with the  family for several years.

I presume that you have read it. If you have, then you know it moves way beyond the facile operating principles that arise from something as simplemindedly wretched as gender-based solidarity.

it may be prize winning fiction,  but fiction it is nonetheless...

*waves to Bert* HEllo, neighbor. I just want to say that I appreciate the interesting discussion we've had on this topic today.  Re: needing laws against cyber-bullying. Unfortunately, the anonymity of the internet makes it difficult to ascertain identities which limits the effectiveness of laws prohibiting bullying acts. There are plenty of laws out there that can be adapted to cover electronic/cyber-bullying, but the problem is when it comes to enforcing the laws.  Every government entity has statutes (laws) that say what can or cannot be done and administrative rules that describe the procedures to be used to deal with the problems the laws talk about. It's actually far harder to write these administrative rules and procedures than the laws themselves (sort of like a political candidate telling us he or she will lower taxes and reduce the national debt but not being able to explain how he or she is going to manage actually doing it). This is a very complex problem that doesn't have a single solution--though I think that principal Aaron Hanson's solution(described in the article mentioned by Mr. Peterman in his entry above) to bullying in his school looks to be quite effective. This type of response to the problem might work in other places but I suspect that the time and manpower needed to manage it might prove too much for schools with much larger populations and a more uneven student to teacher ratio. Julia, do you have an opinion on Mr. Hanson's solution?

Folks, How many books are put out there as fiction where there is a moral message, or a historical message?  Lets see how about Testimoney of Two Men, by Tylor Cauldwell.  To make it current, lets go with di Vinci Code.  Completely fictional but poses some real moral or historical questions.  To write off a book as fictional is ducking the proposition that was linked to a question.  Albeit there are likely better examples sited in a more clinical setting.  It seems to me that female bullying is almost folklore.  I had an older sister that kicked my butt on a regular basis when I was young.  In the 60's the paridigm of grill bullies was only answerd wit "you sissy boy"  As an adult, she is shre polished in a different stye of bullying.  I don't know many women that deny this trait.  I also don't know any that can or will explain it.  Its why I asked.    swami. thx I'll put that book on my book shelf. It's probably one of those things thatwon't be answered in my lifetime.

one more thought...cyber bully?....turn it off, or realise that it is perceived.  sticks and stones....egg or chicken....go outside and do something....

Cuukoo1...perfect.  I just once again came across a person who let their own perception intimidate them...and then BLAME IT ON ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Such fragile people...are typically found to be the bully themselves.  It likely inspired my comment in todays discussion.

Julia:  I am aware of how it works, I did this kind of counseling with a charity group for 8 years.  I am also aware of how futile these programs are.  The hard core, those that need counseling the most, will not comply.  And there's not one thing anyone can do to make them work with the counselor, not one thing on this green earth.
 
If my group were state funded I'd have to say that it wouldn't be worth the taxpayers money for all the good it did; it was privately funded, and continues, and the results are still abysmal.
 
The entire idea of counseling from my experience is just blue sky-ing.  Enforce the rules of the schools and the laws of the state and you'll get a better result with these bullying, nasty people.  The laws are strict and unyielding for that very reason:  to get those who don't want to work within them to comply or be put somewhere where their anger and resentment -- all that energy -- can be put to better use.
 
Like on rockpiles.

You guys sound like Henry Higgens:  Why can't a woman, be more like a man?
 
 
Please. 
 
 
We live in a patriarchical society we always have.  It's got so many problems, and more each day, like another mass shooting in Orlando Florida.  The shooter is allegedly a man.  17 injured, at least ? dead.  Right on the heels of yesterday at Fort Hood.
 
Well done.
 
If you can't work it out, shoot it out.
 
 

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?

Why does every one do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up, well, like their father instead?

Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please.
Whenever you're with them, you're always at ease.

Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Of course not.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Nonsense.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Never.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Well, why can't a woman be like you?

One man in a million may shout a bit.
Now and then, there's one with slight defects.
One perhaps whose truthfulness you doubt a bit,
But by and large we are a marvelous sex!

Why can't a woman take after a man?
'Cause men are so friendly, good-natured and kind.
A better companion you never will find.

If I were hours late for dinner would you bellow?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Of course not.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?

COLONEL PICKERING:
Nonsense.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you complain if I took out another fellow?

Pickering
Never.

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Why can't a woman be like us?

[dialog]

PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so decent, such regular chaps;
Ready to help you through any mishaps;
Ready to buck you up whenever you're glum.
Why can't a woman be a chum?

Why is thinking something women never do?
And why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?

Why can't a woman behave like a man?
If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing,
Or carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like ME?

Where I grew up no-one ever bullied the girls. To do that was beneath contempt. The disabled got special protection. But that doesn't mean there wasn't plenty of bullying going on.

I started out as a a bully, around the third grade. I thought it was the way you had to be. Fortunately for me, my dad saw this behavior in me one day and took me in the house for a "man to man" talk. He explained to me the difference between defending yourself, and being a bully. It made sense to me, the way he explained it, and I stopped. I just didn't know any better.

As I got older, and gained experience with other bullies that weren't enlightened, I found out that most bullies don't really want any trouble, they just want to dominate you, and get your lunch money in the bargain. If you stand up to a bully, most of the time they just wither and go away. Some, you actually have to fight with, but once they find out that you WILL give them trouble, don't bother you anymore. But then you run across the biggest of the bullies that will just plain whip your ass.

We had our own "boy named Sue" except his name was Shirley. I stood up to Shirley and got the only black eye that I ever had, along with numerous other bruises. I soon learned that Shirley would come back and whip you again. Nobody could whip Shirley. If Shirley wanted your lunch money, you gave it to him. If Shirley was looking for you, you went to find him first, before he came and found you. You didn't tattle on Shirley. Not if you knew what was good for you. You couldn't outsmart Shirley either.

I don't know what happened to Shirley, I was just glad he disappeared. To this day the name Shirley is not a feminine name. It's a very masculine name. And I hope I never meet anyone like him again.