The Double Standard

The  tendency  to  be  dismissive  of  serial  infidelities  seems  selfish,  since  that  approach  trivializes  self-control,   and  ignores  collateral  damage  to  others.  That  having  been  said,  sometimes  situation  ethics  is  required .....  it  is  east  to  be  judgmental  of  others,   but  much  harder  to  predict  how  we  would  sort  things  out,  given  the  identical  predicament.  

Men are sometimes invited to bridal showers.  I've attended a few co-ed bridal and baby showers in the past few years.  

I question the validity of a sexual addiction due to the fact that sex has been around since the dawn of time.  If this were a true addiction and disablity I think it would have been noted somewhere in history before now.  I understand that how pleasurable affect the seritonin levels in the brain but I don't know how anyone would have the physical stamina to call repeated carnal activity an addiction.  What would the criteria be to assess  such a problem?  

Jalopkin, The Song Of Solomon does map things out nicely, but there is no mention of addiction.  Addiction is the opposite of free will, as the addicted personality is unable to stop the undesired behavior.
 
 

perhaps, addiction is the point when you become the victim of your own free will.....?

yes, cuukoo !!!
and we need to learn that more is not always better.
 
 
 
 it's a teacher workday so the kid has the day off. Time for the family to travel 2hrs and a 20 dollar toll to the 'city' to shop. She wants to look for a dress for the Winter Formal at her school.
We will stop on the way for a lesson with her horse.
 
I have prepared the menu for the dining car in advance.
Fried seaside oysters, turnip greens,baked haymans and baked rockfish. Sweet potatoe and apple pies for dessert. I love the fall!
 
see ya'll later in the club car.

Jalopkin,  Julia,  Cuukoo1:    You rascals  have  already  started  what  promises  to  be  a  very  interesting  debate.   Reminds  me  of  the  debate  over  the  existence  {or  lack  thereof}  of  "chronic  fatigue  syndrome."   Cynics called  everyone  claiming  to  be  so  affected  "slackers."    Now  it  turns  out  that  a  virus  similar  to  HIV  actually  exists,   and  it  responds  to  treatment,   but  as  yet  it  cannot  be  cured.   Smoke  and  mirrors, just  an  excuse  to  justify  not  playing  by  the  rules,   or  is  sexual addiction  a  true  force  that overrides  free  will  in  certain  people,   men  or  women?

Can we once & for all call a moratorium on calling overeating & having sex w/ anyone & everyone an "addiction"? Please!!! We must rail against the Oprahization that has completely excused personal responsibility. Also, let's get rid of the phrase,"I want to spend more time w/ my family"- instead of just saying- "I decided to be a pigdog (or pigwoman) & I'm about to be indicted, so that is why I am resigning."
Yes, there is a double standard and I don't see it disappearing anytime soon. I call myself a feminist, BUT if I am completely honest w/ myself I am much more judgemental on women who sleep around- not so much the men. I have seen men targeted w/ the sl*t term, but they have tended to be not nice people who use other people. Men w/ charm & a genuine like of women are allowed much more leeway.
JULIA & JALOPKIN- enjoyed your early morning musings before I go to a meeting w/ a crazy mom about her crazy son.

Maybe Aristotle had something....
 
bebe;  I agree that we have invented too much psychobabble that allows people to feel good about their shortcomings.  However, I also believe that some people are truly addicted to those things.  I don't pretend to understand how anyone could become addicted to food or sex, even though I take great pleasure in both.  Chemicals we can lab-produce and quantify and do animal experiments with are perhaps easier to understand...nicotine, alcohol, crack.  Perhaps we don't understand enough about how food and sex affect the chemicals we naturally produce. 
 
Jalopkin's point about validation and quantification that reinforces self-worth is spot on.  Doesn't matter if it's sex, Twinkies, sex with Twinkies, crack, shopping, gambling or any of the million other things we could get obsessed with......we just want to feel better and our self-control has left the building.
 
 

Shandonista:   It  seems  that  for  as  long  as  there  has  been  recorded  history  mankind  has  looked  to  objects  or  to  movements  or  to  chemicals  or  to  others  {appropriate  or  otherwise}  to  find  happiness.    At  the  risk  of  sounding  very  existential   this  early  in  the  day,  isn't  the  ultimate  goal  to  find   enjoyment  in  ourselves?   Otherwise  aren't  we  merely  putting  a  heavy  coat  of  paint  over  a  rusty  car,   kidding  ourselves  into  thinking that  we  are  truly  happy  when  in  fact  we  are  merely  amused  or   intoxicated?     Meaning  comes  from  inside,   then  meanders  out,   sharing  itself  with  others  of  like  spirit.....  Otherwise  what  passes  for  meaning  is  merely  a  distraction,  and  since  this  is  our  life  {not  merely  a  dress  rehersal}  we  need  to  sit  ourselves  down  and  decide  that  there  is  no  time  to  waste,  every  day  is  precious.

Bebe, for the most part I absolutely agree with you and love the term "Oprahization" -- however, I'm not harder on women than men.  Women, I think, are a little more discrete, and of course that doesn't make it right, but it does save the spouse from such public humiliation thereby exacerbating an already horrible moral issue.  For instance, there must be a special ring in hell for John Edwards dalliance while his wife was fighting cancer; Bill Clinton while supposedly running the country was enjoying BJ's in the oval office.  I can't compare David Letterman who seems to think it's a perc of the job to these men who were supposedly working on world affairs, not personal ones -- but we don't expect much from a entertainer.  Not so much a double standard as their role in our lives. 
 
Men seem to think it comes with the job; gives validation and a sense of power.  Is this why they run for office?  Perhaps we would accept it from them if they were honest and would include in their speeches, "I want to be your president because the sex is good." 

yes bert, the goal is to find meaning enjoyment in ourselves.  I never meant to imply otherwise.
 
You bring up an interesting point here.....'as long as there has been recorded history..."  I would entend that to "as long as homo sapiens has existed."  And, to take that even further, as the devil's advocate, if that's the way we've always been, isn't that the way we really are? 
 
I don't want to start a shite storm here of arguments about morals, religious teachings, etc etc, because I believe that the rules society (or God, Jalopkin) has created (10 Commandments, Code of Hammurabi) serve a very useful purpose in allowing us to live together in groups fairly peacefully.  As gregarious creatures, we need groups to survive mentally and physically.  BUT, don't we need to acknowledge that there are parts to our psyche that aren't comprehensible, or pretty, or shiny, or acceptable?  Agreed, we don't need to encourage those parts of ourselves but they are there and they have remained in our reptilian brains because they serve a purpose.
 
Humans are such complicated beasts.  One the one hand, we are able to believe and have faith in and attempt to emulate an unseen, unknown (for many), omnipotent force we call God.  We are able to create existentialism and the VCR.  Yet, we're just primates, too, with all the DNA leftovers from our long evolution and the confusing actions we take for even more confusing reasons.
 
 

Andy:   I  think  the  phenomenon  you  are  describing  is  narcissistic  personality  disorder,   with  swirls  of  greed   and  "compassion  deficit"  blended  in.   I  know  it's  not   an  excuse,  but  you  see  the  same  thing  elsewhere.  The  president  of  Italy  is  also  the  country's  wealthiest  man,  one  of  his  lawyers  just  got  convicted  of  taking  $660K  {US}  in exchange  for  his  perjured  testimony  in  their  latest  corruption  scandal.   Then  we  have  the  president  of  France,  never  mind  that  his  wife  is  a  drop-dead  georgeous  actress  who is  smart  & funny,  he  simply  cannot  seem  to  resist  chasing  after  anyone  of  the  female  persuasion,  and  then  he  delights  in  having  the  image  of  a  "ladies  man."   Barf  barf  barf 

I  think  I  shall  propose  that  for  Christmas  we  all  chip  in,  and  get  that  nice  John  Peterman  "spell  check."   Please  keep  it  a  secret  that  I managed  to misspell  "gorgeous" 

the double standard is, in and of itself, a double standard, if it exclusive to men.  it takes two truculent adults to consent. 

Men and women are different, and should be treated accordingly. They can do anything we can do, but not necessarily better. After all, men are better at some things and women are better at others. Biologically speaking, we even see differently; men have better distance and depth perception, while women are far more peripherial.
The double standard works both ways, for example, men are judged far more harshly if they stay at home with the kids while the wife is off working in the big city. This isn't to say that there shouldn't be a double standard, but our standards should be re-thought.
If we were a truly egalitarian society, we wouldn't have such discussions and the world would be all the more boring for it. Personally, I believe men and women should be treated differently through a little chauvinism, decency, and general politeness towards one another. Manners may antiquainted, but they are always appreciated, and we could emerge as a greater people if we simply acted better.

After seeing the last few posts, I feel even more strongly than ever that the double standard is about how are ARE versus how we WANT to be. 
 
And bert gives us a great example.....how long is the list of men who've dumped their gorgeous, accomplished women just so they could chase other gorgeous, accomplished women?  (And some not so much of either)  And yet, and yet, we still accept those randy devils back into the fold.  If women behaved that way, all hell would break loose and witch trials would start up again.  Certainly not saying that I think anyone should behave that way, but why are men constantly forgiven and women jsut called ugly names? 
 
As a female of The Species Who Likes to Dictate What Others Should Do, I'm sick of other people telling me how I have to behave.  Luckily, in my case, my greatest frustration in this department is getting party invitations that tell me how to dress....pretty damn sure I've figured out by now that one shouldn't wear holey jeans to a semi-formal party.
 
Can't wait to see the rest of the day at the Eye.
 
 
 

I've always wondered if the double standard had more to do with our biological clock and hormones.  In this area, men have more power.  A man can delay fatherhood.  If they have multiple partners they can have several children in the same calender year.    Women can only reproduce every 9 months.

As far as calling all  of our shortcomings " addictions" or chalking them up to some devastating psychological experience, I think its time we embrace the fact we're human and supposed to make mistakes.`  

The question, as I see it, is whether or not it is an addiction to sex or an addiction to excuses. Those who are irresponsibly unfaithful and deceitful will always find a way to explain their behavior, but there is no excuse for their conduct. Whereas, the behavior of any true addict is not determined by free will but by the insatiable drive of the addiction. There is a difference between medical addiction and moral transgression, but the consequences are not negated by the cause...everyone concerned gets hurt, both men and women.

Shandonista:   As  usual,  your  thinker-upper  is  in high  function  mode  today.  Observations  of  mine  follow  my  arrival from  the  courthouse, where  33 lawyers  on  the  same  case  haggled  with  each  other  and  with  the  judge.  This  is  the  irony,  a  local  B  of  A  executive,  whose institution  made  an  $8M  construction  loan  to   Bear  Creek,  a  local commercial  developer,  apparently  spent  a decent  portion  of  those  funds  in  a  leased  private  jet  going  hither  &  yon  around  the  world  to exotic  hotspots,  with  an  executive  of  Bear  Creek.   Now  the  party's  over,  someone  burst  their  yellow  baloon,  and  the  creditors  are  all  left  with  uncollateralized  unsecured  debt.  Oh  yeah,  we  bailed  B  of  A  out.  Too  big  to  fail.
So  Shandonista,  yes,  men  & women  are  much  more  unsophisticated  and  less  classy  than  we would  sometimes like  to  think.   And  where  is  the  logic  of  jeopardizing  your  careers,  marriages,  and  perhaps  freedom  from  getting  sentenced  to  ClubFed?    Ego,  bravado,  narcissism.   Everything   I  said  previously  was  printed  in  the  Cincinnati  Enquirer,  among  others,  and  it  all  ALLEGEDLY   happened.   Mom was  right,  I  was  a  better  fit  for  medicine....     But  Shandonista,  you  and  your  hubby  may  wear  whatever  you  want  to  any  party  hosted  by  ME.  

An addiction to excuses woul be a great name for a band and a twelve step program.  There could be people who experience a spike in their seritonin levels when they lie or make excuses.  I' m relatively certain that narcissism.

Gotta love that DSM-IV:
http://www.tcnj.edu/~sa/adep/factsheets/dsm2.htm
 

On Wednesday night, At 10:00 pm and 11:00 pm, Discovery Health is having 2 programs that will deal with sexual disorders and addiction.
 
Although I'll be in DC there will be reruns I'm sure.

I memorized whole sections of the DSM-IV in graduate school.  So, Daniel, are you implying that the double standard has its roots in alcohol/drug addiction?  It is easy to see how fermented  produce and chemicals can cause an imbalance in the body but I'm not sure that they are always linked to bad behavior.   

Most of you have gotten it, Dead On .......
 
 
JOHNNY !!!   What do we have for BERT as a Parting Gift ??? ..............

an explanation is entirely different than an excuse, to me.  culpability.  if i screw up and own it, that's an explanation, the rest is just an excuses.   is the compass true?

Julia~ That's exactly what I'm implying. You got it. I think there is a strong correlation between addiction and bad behavior because both acts are compulsive where the patient/client feels he cannot control/prevent himself/herself from acting in a certain manner.

There  was  a  female  employee  of  the  State  of  Arkansas  who  claimed  that  Bill  Clinton,  while  governor,  came  on  to  her,  using  his  position  of  power  to  pressure  her  into granting  him  sexual  favors.   A  small  footnote  afterwards  was  her  signing  on  as  spokesperson  for  No  Excuses  Jeans.....

Now HERE is a Faustian bargain:  Anything can be excused, as long as you are willing to forfeit free will.

It's fascinating that we instantly connect double standard with sex and gender!  I find the more interesting double standards are those regarding crime (black and poor -> to jail; white and rich -> to 'counseling); money (middle class -> work hard and get ahead; ultra-rich -> let daddy and his friends set you up in business), and religion (Christian -> good; Muslim or atheist -> bad).  

Daniel, I see how substance abuse leads to bad behavior but I''ve met a number of professional screw ups who've been sober their whole lives.  Conceit, feeling of entitlement and acting like a teenager at mid-life are active ingredients in the half baked excuses/double standard recipe. 

Regarding the sub-class of double standard related to sex/gender, I always find it fascinating to think that for every married man who is having sex outside of marriage, there's a woman having sex with a married man (isn't that mathematically certain?)!  If a smaller proportion of the female population is having sex with married men than there are married men 'cheating' , it would seem to clearly demonstrate that women are having multiple partners, right?  YET... all the attention seems focused on the guys, not on their female counterparts.... Curious...

Regarding 'sex addiction', think: every single person you have ever met in your life was the result of sweaty, grunting sex.  Every single one!  Even the prudes!  I have to chuckle as I think of the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words."  (And I find myself thinking of the sad fate of the Shakers, who were certainly NOT sex addicts... in fact, due to their 'purity', they died out.  Seems there weren't enough converts to fill the procreative void....  Guess all those 'sex addicts' were partying with their partners instead of taking advantage of the opportunties attendant on making furniture instead....

Double standards...
 
...these seem to have arisen when men didn't want to raise  other mens children, but did not want to give up the privilege of sleeping with any woman that would have him.

Sex addiction...
 
I briefly dated a recovering sex addict, until it became clear that like an alcoholic he could not succumb to the object of his addiction without sprialing into a relapse. I do think there was an addiction there, but not so much in the same way as a substance addiction. It was not a physical addiction that his body craved and would withdraw from, but more a mental addiction, more an obsessive/compulsive thing...having to turn the lights on and off 7 times, or lock each lock 6 times, or or reach the sidewalk from his door in 16 steps, a ritual that had to be performed to keep his universe in balance.

In high school I got in trouble for saying that birth control was an oxymoron because if turned women into robots.  I thought the double standard would have died out by 1984.  Women have a lot more contol than they used to. Cougar chic has deemed it acceptable to dip into a fresher gene pool when the biological clock ticks too loudly.  Women have more options in workplace and in terms of healthcare and family choices.  However, when faced with a jury of their peers, other women influence justice to remove her blindfold and  see with tunnel vision.      

Doc  Nolan:    Your  point  is  well-taken,  there  is  no  shortage  of  hyprocracies,  sex  is  just  the  one  with  the  greatest  "curb  appeal,"   but  the  list  is  long.....

...and how about "the grass is greener over there?"...Is a lack of satisfaction what really drives an addiction? And is that aswaged by satiaity(sp?)...seeing a rather portly person calling another of equal or even lesser girth "FAT" drives that point...

...and what of "I'm normal-you're not"?

...and on the lighter side,an old quote by I forget who..."sex is so popular because it is centrally located"

I'd like to be editor of a newspaper called The Double Standard.

ROADYACHT:     I   THINK .......  The first time that phrase was spoken in a large public gathering or on Screen, it was Baby Rose Marie ... on Hollywod Squares, quoting Oscar Levant from a years earlier Nite Club Act ... and trying to get one up on Paul Lynde .......

Maybe a bit off topic (but not much!): Feminism.  (At least one version of it!).  I went to a convention awhile back and there was a group -- given much deference -- called 'The Women's Caucus' (no males allowed).  They came up with an agenda, which was duly debated and adopted... After they broke up, I was approached by a lady who was active in the caucus who asked for 'my support'.  I told her that I had no problem with 'womens' issues', but that -- as a guy -- I had no particular reason to support the positions they had agreed on.  "It's up to you all what you want to do, but it's none of my affair,"  I told her.  She got very indignant, saying that they needed all the support they could get, and that I should support them.  I kept my mouth shut.  I doubt that -- if some idiot had suggested we form a 'Men's Caucus', (a) I would have joined, or (b) expected women to come flocking to our support.  Then again, that's a GUY'S perspective......

Julia  Masi:   There  does  seem  to  be  a  certain  validity  to   the  theory  that  there  are  women  who  make  one  decision   with  respect  to  hooking  up  with  the  man  best  equipped  to  be  the  provider  for  their  family,  while  at  the  same  time  seeking  alternate(s)  to  provide  the  genetically  strongest/smartest  children,   or  for  that  matter  to  be  the  source  of  greatest  passion.   Universities  are  familiar  with  scholarly  doctoral  papers  written  in  support  of  some  variant  of  this   premise,   and  it's  derivatives.  I  am  certain  that  men  also  rationalize  all  kinds  of  conflicting  priorities  when  attractiveness  in  a  partner  is  an  issue.   Today  I  feel  uncomfortable  either  in  the  role  of  hunter-gatherer  or  of   frisky  hopeless  romantic.   Once  the  last  of  the  people  leave  the  conference room,  perhaps  I  may  treat  myself  to  the  luxury  of  sorting  out  this  important  issue.....with  a  nap  on  the  comfy  couch....

Feminism is a bookstore with no humor section.

Doc  Nolan,  tread  softly  when  squaring  off  with  organized  sorties  of  women.   They  are  smarter  than  us,  just  look  at  the  lioness,  she  needs  to  do  all  the  hunting,  AND  raise  the  cubs,  while  her  male  counterpart  merely  sits  in  the  sun  and  takes  it  easy.   You may  make  enemies,  and  should  that  be  the  case,  they  may  not  bother  getting  mad,   but  instead  just  GET  EVEN.....

Is a nymphomaniac or a satyr a sex addict or just the opposite of their partner?

Doc Nolan: My question is why would you want to support an agenda you had no imput on?

Precisely!

Bert; I'm VERY cautious when dealing with both men and women!  I usually have multiple layers of contingency plans when I make moves (a habit I developed over a lifetime!), AND I never negotiate without knowing what I'm willing to lose and what's 'on the table'.  Keeping one's motives and values hidden is very useful, since most folks project their OWN motivations onto others, so it's easy to have them 'miss the mark'.  (E.g. if they're into 'status' and I don't give a fig, they can bad-mouth me and I simply find their misdirected attack amusing... of course one never lets THEM know that ;-)

I don't fear enemies.... as long as I can keep them in sight.  I worry about getting foggy on my OWN objectives and values (the enemy within!)

Doc~ What if in exchange for your support, they offered you a gift, much like PBS thanking you for your "donation?"

"Sex addiction" is a meme, a worthless faddish concept that gets people airtime and attention, and generates lucre, at least for now, for "therapists." It has puritanical underpinnings: a sex addict is someone who has more sex than you do. Other than that, there are no diagnostic criteria. Don't hold your breath waiting for "Sex Addiction" to appear in a Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Sex addiction is a label used by wronged women to fix men in a formulated phrase, and a tool for David Duchovny to boost ratings for "Californication."

Doc  Nolan:   I  figure  that  every  woman  on  the  planet  has  a  certain  amount  of  latent  hostility  inside  her  towards  men,  simply  because  of  being  the  one  whose  job  it  is  to  carry  around  the  child  for  nine  months,  while  the  man  sits  in  front  of  the  tv,  exercising  only  the  remote  control...

Much the same can be said of "sexual harassment." Men, by and large, are left pinned and wriggling by this formulation. How ironic that "courtship" is now a double entendre around this issue. Express interest in ANY co-worker, ANY woman at a lesser station in life than yours, ANY waitress, ANY woman at a significantly higher station in life than you, ANY woman associated with a business that you patronize, ANY woman who was ever your student, ANY woman who ever taught you, and your entreaties (no matter how polite or restrained) can be morph-labelled in a nanosecond as sexual harassment.

OH BERT:
 
You are so wrong.
 
Some of us women enjoy that time and can't wait for the end product.

KSS:
 
I had a client who for NO reason kissed me in the midle of a conversation.
 
How would you explain that.
 
I'd say in caps SEXUAL HARASSMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
As you initials imply.   LOL!!!!

There are so many jokes on the subject of sex, as an object.Or objective.And it is all more or less subjective.....And look how the demographic is changing, more older people=more old sex jokes. But how many Viagra commercials a day does it take beforewe realize that no one is getting as much as everyone says (satisfaction,I mean).  And that brings up a thought I had while driving one day; what if all those Viagra/whatever pills that promise virility,advertised on the Internet,werein reality put there by wives that no longer wanted to be bothered,so they sell fakes, and then tell the saddened hubby,"oh well, it just doesn't work for you" .."Want some chocolate?"

Men and women both have equal power in this world to touch the lives of others. The individuality of the sexes will always be present, but it isn't really the point when the two work together as one. It's how we handle our power and whether or not we respect (even enjoy) a perspective other than our own, that makes the largest difference in our relationship. Men and women, in my estimation, would be so much better off trying to complete each other, instead of compete with each other.

Somewhere, I remember reading that in striving for harmony in our relationships, it is suggested that we should not stubbornly hold on to the belief that all the mistakes we make are "understandable" mistakes; which we then attempt to defend. A true apology should be one that admits error and strives to understand the other person's point-of-view; not one that endeavors to persuade the other person our actions are completely valid for a particular reason. It can be hard to face ourselves and accept the fact we are not, in some way, justified in all that we do or say.

None of us is perfect, especially me (notably as I try to refine my thoughts here), but I don't believe that means it's okay to ignore responsibility, allow ourselves to be self-centered, and be insensitive to others, all neatly defended by the explanation that it is a natural human tendency. Human intelligence, after all, developed out of the very nature of our animalistic being...and so should human intellect and conscious thought be a part of the decisions we all make.

Bert, I wish I were suprised that you said that about women, hostility, and pregnancy. 
 
That is a hostile statement if I ever heard one, and it is wrong, so wrong. 
 
Who gave you that idea? 
(rhetorical)
 
How very sad that you think that.

korthal:  must be in the water.  Same here, while in a conference room, the last two leaving.  And it was my conference room.
 
Sexual harrassment is alive and well and it's as destructive and demeaning as ever.  NO, women don't ask for it, but YES they get it anyway.
 
Oh, but wait, maybe the cochon was a sex addict, and he couldn't help himself.... 
 
 
 

Doc Nolan, how do you know that all the cheating men are cheating with women? The ratio between women and men in certain age groups does work in the man's favor for finding multiple partners. Therefore the men would most probably be cheating and the women would be single and waiting for the heel to leave his wife.

True... some men are cheating with men, but I doubt that's more than five percent... (we'll leave goats and sheep to one side!).  If the women are "single and waiting for the heel to leave his wife" what does that say about the woman in question?  First, that she's getting it on with a married man (proving my thesis), and second, that she plans to marry a 'heel' as you call the man in question.

Bert~ I agree with PARK4. While pregnancy and birth can be physically and emotionally demanding, it is also the most rewarding and wonderful time in a woman's life. Nothing beats having life growing within you! If you spent the nine months lifting your remote, instead of sharing in your partner's joy and helping her get through the difficult moments with love and compassion, then you missed out on an emotional closeness you'll never be able to experience anywhere else...especially in front of a tv...and that is sad.

It seems to me that the best way to handle 'sexual harrassment' issues is the direct route: "If I were to make show any romantic interest in you, would you consider that 'sexual harrassment'?" If the woman says 'Yes!', you move on.  If she says, 'No!' you move SLOWLY forward.  And if she's ambiguous, simply say, 'If you're interested, just say so.  If not, I'll have to assume that I should move on!'  (Am I oversimplfying matters????) If a woman can't handle a straight question with a straight answer, do you want to get entangled anyway?  (I don't find mind-reading a particularly fun sport....)

Why 5 percent, Doc, and no more? 
 
 

I tend to think that all human beings (not just women) carry around "a certain amount of latent hostility " toward other human beings.  In other words, treat people as ticking time bombs until you are (relatively) sure they are not.  Then again, I consider Jean Paul Sartre's play, "No Exit" to be a serious consideration of human relations... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Exit

I wanna know where it says that there always has to be a short end of the stick?  If its a rule, it needs to be brocken.

Daniel: Doc~ What if in exchange for your support, they offered you a gift, much like PBS thanking you for your "donation?"  --- I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I hate 'gifts'.  Invariably they are something you don't want, but hate to throw in the trash ("waste not, want not" echoing in your mind from your childhood...).

DOC:
 
A married or otherwise involved man should not ask those questions.
 
That seems to be the problem in a lot of the cases.

Oh good grief.
 
Why doesn't it occur to "anybody" here (Doc), that while at work, a lot of women have work on their minds and they aren't thinking about being grabbed in the conference room -- that's just wrong, out of line, out of place -- and wrong.
 
I'm thinking about a contract, and Mr. Grab Arse isn't thinking about anything but me and sex and what in the world is wrong with him? because it's him who's off balance, not me.
 
There is a time and a place, and the workplace isn't the place to have a romantic (as you euphemistically call it) conversation.
 
Yes, you're oversimplifying, Doc. 
 
When does this workplace conversation come into being:  after he's grabbed the woman behind the closed door, or just before he's about to grab the woman?
 
 

Are there any polyamorous folks here?  I'm not, but I know a few and it would be very interesting to hear their views on this!  For those unfamiliar with the term.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory .  There are a lot of health reasons (primarily) for monogamy (which is probably why it evolved), but there are folks who do not impose the same moral strictures of monogamy as do most folks.   (Incidentally, I suspect the biggest reason people insist on fidelity from their partners is not fear of STDs, but simple insecurity and lack of self-confidence....)

I don't see why physical attraction is any more 'out of place' in the workplace than everyone getting hungry after noon....  What's out of line is pressuring other folks, or being a pain (and this includes folks who get obnoxious about 'going to lunch together' after one has plainly said, "I'm not hungry!".  Just as 'cutting work' to do a two-martini, two-hour lunch is clearly out of line, so is 'cutting work' to pursue any romantic interest(s).  One's primary obligation at work is to work and socializing should remain 'after hours'.  Frankly, I could care less if folks at work are having an affair (be they both single, one married, or both married -- presumably not to each other).  If they are doing their job, their sex life is no more any of my business than whether they eat at Italian, Thai, or Chinese restaurants.....

I also wanna know who taught me to spell broken b r o c k e n?  Thatls just wrong.

Korthal:
 
The kiss was indeed inappropriate, but SEXUAL HARASSMENT!   How?
 
 

The Ladies have certainly shone well today ... An impressive contribution on all parts ... No time for Guess-Work Guys ....... That only seems to prove every rotten thing they ever thought about us to be correct ....... And I think the Ladies have held their tongues rather well ....... Admirably so .......

I must admit to being an ardent, Dyed-in-the-Wool Cahuvinist, myself ....... But insensitivity has never been one of my faults .......

Doc:
 
I think you last two comments are right on the money!

SIC 'EM PETE !!!
 

What is right about it, the kiss in the workplace?  or the grappling in the conference room?
 
Bounty Hunter, you think this kind of behavior is alright?  If a woman hasn't asked you to put your hands on her sexually or kiss her, it's alright in your mind, to do so anyhow?
 
And why, why would any of this not qualify as sexual harrassment?

Sartre's vision of Hell aside, I agree that there is too much hostility in the air  when men and women are looking to find a mate.  There are those who think that acting disinterested, critical or sarcastic will attract the man or woman of their dreams.  It may be a way to avoid saying something that could be misinterpreted as sexual harrasment.  However, being rude is equally as annoying.  Few people understand the fine art of flirting.

To bring it back to topic of addiction, sexual disorders are a behavior you choose out of free will not a trerminal illness or an air borne virus.

...nothing like a long dramatic pause.

Doc~ --- I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I hate 'gifts'.  Invariably they are something you don't want, but hate to throw in the trash ("waste not, want not" echoing in your mind from your childhood...).
 
Sorry about that, It was poor attempt at humor, referencing the ladies wanted you to help them out financially but did not want you involved in the decision making process. I drew an immediate comparision to other organizations asking for money and used the PBS example of them giving you knick-knacks when you make a contribution.
 
See, now that I've explained myself, it's even less funny.

Doc:  I don't mean what people do outside the workplace, or the office, wherever...that's not what we're talking about here.  Or so I thought.
 
I don't care either what kind of liasons go on between two colleagues, that's not my business, if it's out of the workplace...go for it, have fun.
 
I was speaking as a woman in the workplace, someone who worked there, and for lack of a better word, got hit on by a customer.  I didn't invite, they didn't ask, they assumed.  That's wrong.  That's harrassment in the work place, and it was sexual, so it's sexual harrassment.
 
I bet most if not all women here can recount episodes of sexual harrassment at work -- uninvited sexual advances by men who seem to think it's okay to grab a woman and do whatever else he can get away with, with her because he's the boss' best pal, he's the boss' son or nephew or brother, he's god's gift to women and they should be grateful for the attention, he's the Big Guy himself and he'll fire their butts if they don't play too-- or he's a loser who hits on every woman whenever he can, no matter where, because that's the only way he can manage to be within 12 inches of a female.
 
I owned a company, a machining company, we had many male employees.  Those who just couldn't comprehend the very simple idea of "keep your hands to yourself" -- they were gone so fast they didn't even leave a memory.
 
 
 
Why do men need to be reminded of this, anyhow?  I never had to tell a woman to get her hands off one of the men.  Why the men?
 
 
 
 
 
 

co-worker, not "customer."
 
Julia, I liked it.

Park4:
 
I said that the kiss was inappropriate, but I just don't see how it reaches the level of sexual harassment, which to my understanding must be a "repeated" offense. 
 
If offended, then react by indicating so and making clear that the act was offensive and will not be tolerated. 
 
 
 
 

Park4
 
I would submit that most sexual communication is non-verbal, so asking permission to touch, kiss, etc. is not necessarily a requirement to action

Park4:   The  "latent  hostility"  comment  is  applicable  ONLY  where  the  man  sees  no  reason  to  get  involved  with  his  wife's  pregnancy,  lightening  the  load  as  the  child  grows  inside  her.   You  are  exactly  correct,  not  much  is  more  intimate  or  rewarding  that  bringing  new  life  into  the   world,  especially  when  you  actually  get  to  pick  the  person  with  whom  you  make  those  plans. 
I  have  close  to  a  zero  tolerance  policy  for  sexual  harrassment  at  work,  in  EITHER  direction.  It's  disrespectful,  it's  assaultive,  it  may  in  fact  be  illegal,  and  it  disrupts  morale  and  stands  in  the  way  of  our  mission,  helping  clients  in  distress.  One  warning,  then  the  prompt  discussion  about  protocol  with  the  door  closed.  2nd  time?  Time   to  reexamine  our  relationship,  somebody  missed  the  "professional"  part,  and  it  wasn't  me. 
......I'm  not  big  on  office  romance  either,  although  situations  develop,  and  I'm  not  the  mistletoe  police.  But  discretion  is  a  good  thing,  nobody  works  past  6  pm  unless  they  are  a  volunteer,  so  get  an  apartment  in  town.  
.......I  kind  of  wish  that  we  had  some  of  these  discussions  face  to  face,  without  eye  contact  &  body  language  it  is  reasonably  easy  to  misinterpet  the  whole  tone  or  context  that  generated  a  comment.    But  we  continue  to   continue,  nobody  walks  off  in  a  snit,  and  that's  a  good  thing.
........Doc,  did  I  give  you  sufficient  coverage  for  you  to  scamper  for  protection  in  the  clouds,  or  are  you  going  to  continue  to  go  head  to  head  with  these  spunky  women?  Spunk,  by  the  way,  is  a  good  thing.
......As  to  the  other  stuff,  I  always  thought  that  gentlemen  can  discreetly  and  appropriately  watch  for  cues  to  see  if  another  is  interested  in  the  chemistry  of  MORE  than  the  project  at  hand.  Grabass  calls  for  a  bust  upside  the  head.   Refer  back  to  prior  comments  about  sexual  harrassment. 

BERT- When I was at work I checked this site once & realized I forgot to add your name along w/ Jalopkin's & Julia's. My apologies- as I am not allowed to comment at work. It's restricted! It was very early when I wrote it!
KSS- you can't group all feminists that way. they are like any other group w/ a passionate ideology- some members were denied the humour gene at birth. Plus it seems like the young feminists are filled w/ vim, vigor, & a love of lipstick & high heels. It's not all "The Women's Room."
ANDY- when I got home this afternoon a letter from O magazine- urging me to subscribe w
was waiting in my mailbox! Karma...
DOC- I have to agree w/PARK- the workplace is not the place to find a date. Now if two people are undeniably drawn to each other & they are discreet -go for it. It also seems unfair to your workmates to put them thru the tension of breakups, etc. That should be private. It DOES matter if someone is sleeping w/ another's spouse. Those people made a vow to be faithful & love each other. If you are a couple who have an "open" marriage- fine, but I bet that's a minority when an affair occurs. The sexiest thing in a man is a man who loves his partner, wife, girlfriend & obviously loves her. Now that's a man in the very best sense of the word...

bebe:
 
YOU think that the sexiest thing in a man is one who loves his partner, etc.  Obviously, many women disagree with you.  Otherwise, there's be no affairs.  And last I checked it takes two to tango.
 
Also, your conclusion that the workplace is not a place to find a date.  Are you kidding me?  Why not?  You sound like the morality police!
 
Breakups that are publicly displayed in the workplace are inappropriate and should be handled by management like any other workplace misbehavior.  For two people who work together and are attracted to each other to not seek each other is ridiculous. 

Bebe:   I  enjoy  everything  you  contribute,  and  I  don't  obsessively  need  recognition.....just  the  fact  that  you  keep  returning  is  flattering,  jmo. 
Park4:  Sexual  harrassment  happens  in  both  directions  at  work,  more  so  now  that  women  are  commonly  in  powerful  positions.  But  it's  the  men  who  are  the  likely  suspects,  and  it  is  a  source  of  real  embarrassment  for  me.  If  I  want  to  associate  with  pigs,  I  can  go  2  miles  west,  our  community  is  surrounded  by  family  farms.  I  don't  need  any  men  acting  like  pigs,  not  on  my  watch.....

Bebe: Feminism is separatism. Feminism is a derived affectation that aims to keep on hand the possibility that anything a man might do can somehow, sometimes and some way be labelled as chauvinistic, discriminatory or misogynistic. Feminism attempts to punctuate this idea with the defensive refrain that men couldn't possibly understand it because they're men. Feminism claims to seek equality but plans to stop at nothing short of superiority.

Bebe:
 
"It DOES matter if someone is sleeping w/ another's spouse.  Unless it's YOUR SPOUSE, it's none of your damn business! 
 
 

Bounty Hunter:  what's so hard about "take it outside."  The affairs, the kisses, the grabbing, the sexual advances, the sexual rebuffs -- take it outside.  Out of the workplace, out of the offices, the conference room, the closet where the computer paper is kept -- go someplace else.
 
As for that kiss not being sexually harrassment?  that sexual harrassment needs to be repeated?
 
Oh, how wrong you are.  Once is enough, my friend.
 
It's more than enough, actually, but to qualify for sexual harrassment, once is enough. 

Already above sexual harassment is being posited as something that men do to women. I can tell you that women are richly and eminently capable of harassing males. It has happened to me more than once, and I intensely dislike it.

It takes two to tango.
 
 
As long as one of them isn't your spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend.

And since I am taking up for males, I'd love to take on one other infuriating inequity: laws that automatically charge men with physical abuse any time a woman wishes to make a scene. Life experience, an awful lot of long term patient care, and things people confide in me suggest that physical altercations between men and women are more often initiated by women than by men. In the eyes of the law, women can punch, hit and kick men, but men who defend themselves are felons. I have had one marriage, and it ended over the issue of physical violence that I was subjected to, such as having to have my face twice sutured up, because of an unstable woman's unpredictable outbursts. By the time she moved out, every door in the house had to be replaced because she had smashed or broken it.

BOUNTY HUNTER- PLease note the second line to Doc. I am far from the morality police. Seriously. BUT... If you don't love your wife or husband- go to them, tell them- maybe it can be fixed, maybe not, but have the dignity to not go behind their back. I come from divorced parents and I do take my vows very seriously. My marriage is not perfect, but my love for my husband is strong and true.
 
A short, true story. Last week an older friend of ours went to the hopital to be checked & they kept him because all of his arteries were blocked. They operated the next morning- cut him completely open.The week before we had celebrated his 76th b'day w/ him & his wife & some relatives visiting from Europe. This is a man who looks vital & full of life. We took dinner to him Saturday afternoon. He was in the living room eating lunch & we stayed to talk for a few minutes. He pointed to a beautiful vase of flowers & said, "Today(halloween) is our anniversary." He was beaming and so was his wife. I hope my love looks at me in that way after 39 years. In that moment our friend looked radiant, healthy, & so beautiful to me.

Yes, bert, I think a gentlemen still can figure out if a woman is interested without trying her out first.
 
The cad, the creep, and the boor -- they need something more overt.
 
They're the ones we put in the unemployment line.  Zero tolerance.  It was explained up front when they were hired, if they can't remember or control themselves then they are out.
 
They'll find another place...different women, a more "congenial" atmosphere...another boss who will have to deal with them and their inadequacies...
 
 

Did you file a complaint, KSS? 
 
If not, why not?

Park4
 
I have No problem with "take it outside."  I think that's the correct route to follow, but to take the position that two people that work together cannot or should not pursue each other is ridiculous. 
 
I respectfully disagree that harassment occurs in a "one time" situation.  Of course, ambulance chasing lawyers can manufacture all sorts of evil demons from just about anything. I guess harassment is in the eye of the beholder.  For you it's once. 
 
I've never pretended to be sanctimonious, nor did my spouse do so.  So when I found out that my wife cheated on me I didn't think she was the "bad one," but instead, asked "why." 
 
I understand human nature and sometimes shit happens.  I find it amusing that the self-rightous have the hardest times with understanding sin (to miss the mark).   
 
 
 
 
 

karma swim swami:
 
Your comment about the inequity in Domestive Violence is well taken.  As a former bail bondsmen I can't tell you how many times I witnessed the men being arrested for DV despite the woman bashing the man.  When the cops show up it's the man that gets arrested. Almost always in my experience.

BH:
 
The kiss could be construed as sexual harassment because it invaded my personal space and being uninvited and unwanted.
 
Sexual harassment is ANY unwanted advance that creates an uncomfortable situation.
 

Sorry you guys are getting beat up by your wives.
 
Gee, I hope when you divorced it was on the grounds that she abused you.
 
 
 
 
 
 

korthal:  Exactly.  I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

Let's see now ...... it seems to me like there was something besides opposable thumbs and the ability to walk upright that separated us from lower animal life forms...... how about possessing a free will that is governed by respect for the rights and dignity of others; as well as an understanding of right and wrong and having a conscience to get us back on track.

Park4: I get the sense that you are baiting me. Why is it any of your business whether or not I filed a complaint? More important, why do you want to know? If I say I didn't, you'll accuse me of not doing so because I was somehow culpable for what happened. If I say I did, you'll label me not a real man.

Bounty Hunter: Thanks.

BOUNTY HUNTER- I have answered you civilly and explained my position and yet... your comments are completely venomous. I'm at a loss. I thought I was appreciating and applauding salt of the earth men.

I'm getting out of Dodge for a few hours, the need to move my feet in cadence with music is compelling, and after a long day the relaxation will be soothing to the soul. Today was much easier, thanks to my virtual friends..... I'm bringing my kid with me, it seems only yesterday that she learned to dance by standing on my shoes, while I held her hands and counted in her ear. Now I am so very aware that it will only be a matter of time and she will be preoccupied with a family of her own. When I get back, I will be tired enough to sleep without rocking. Save me a seat near the fireplace.....

KSS:  I never said that you were responsible or that you were not a real man.  I asked because you put the situation out here.  It seemed to be a logical question.

A loss is what I'm at as well, bebe.
 
 

This really was a charged atmosphere. I couldn't even bring a smile to anyone.and  I am at a loss. I enjoy a 'kibitz' with customers,and I am an inveterate flirt. Pinky always loved that as I flirted with her continiously.And, she saw me flirt with waitresses,and service people as well. She knew it was to lighten a situation,try to find something that made the person feel good about themselves;that is a value of flirting that is seperate from innuendo...

Of the many topics we've discussed, I suspect this has brought 'differences' into the sharpest focus while -- paradoxically -- not resulting in any 'over the topic' comments....  The differences in outlook and experiences are both STRIKING!   I'm impressed by the (apparently) common problems women seem to face in the workplace.... For whatever reasons I've seen lots and lots of flirtation (and more) going both ways in my various workplaces, but it has always been in a 'familial' environment where -- if one of the guys went 'over the line' the other males would quietly counsel him to 'cool it'.  (I have no idea if that happened on the other side of the gender fence....).  I suspect (but can't prove) that it's because in our industry we all put up with a lot of customer stress and -- when things go badly -- anger.  (I compare our workgroups to ERs, and I've known enough ER folks to see marked similarities!) It's all 'team effort' and mutual support, and we all have zero tolerance for 'office politics' and all that nonsense.  I suspect that workplaces that have a high incidence of harassment have a lot of internal politics and a minimum of team spirit.  (That's a hypothesis!)

Interestingly we once had a young lady working with us who, despite an 'active lifestyle' (ahem) made it very clear that it ended when she came in the door at work.  When (inevitably) her rocky marriage ended in divorce, the soon-to-be 'ex' was seen by an employee slashing the tires on his wife's SUV.  (We thought it a bit funny since he was 'on the note', too, but what the heck.)  Our 'security guy' -- a Houston police officer when he wasn't doing employee security checks and drinking coffee in our break room -- was called in and 'counseled' the husband on the legal fine points of coming onto our property and slashing the tires on his wife's SUV.  Soooo..... (a) no harrassment WITHIN the workplace; (b) vicarious violence by husband on wife using SUV tires as a surrogate target; (c) a 'closing of ranks' by the 'brothers' (i.e. the guys at work), and (d) a lot of eye-rolling at the drama queen and her idiot spouse, but that was all not when she was present.  --- I present this true story to show the complexity of issues of sex, the workplace, marital violence, male roles, and so on.  Real life is a lot more complicated that our categories! 

Now, I'll just mention a topic sure to send the hornets out of the nest..... The tendency of women to find it difficult to work together as team members -- and the related issue of incessant sniping between members of the fair sex.  Now, I'm not positing such behaviors, heh, heh, heh..... but I would like to know if any other folks here have noticed that women seem to have a much lower tolerance of imperfection in other women than they do of male imperfections....  Comments? 

I've seen it plenty, Doc.  Women have been indoctrinated into the double standard and impose it on their sisters.

SHANDONISTA- just wanted to say I've enjoyed your postings today- alot!
DOC- women turning against women is so "All About Eve" & happens alot. After defending my sisters I will say that they can be 50 times more brutal & slashing than men. Just from my perceptions & talking w/ friends- men get their differences over w/ & they don't let things fester. Some women revel in being diabolical. If a group of women decide to turn on you- you might as well commit hari kari. I work hard at having good work relations w/ my fellow sisters - it makes life easier & work is easier when people get along. But, yes, that is our(womens') dirty little secret.

When I started reading the posts this morning.. I quickly decided i shouldn't post or read until the end of the day as I wouldn't have done any work.
 
The sexiest aspect of a relationship is trust.  Once you lose trust it is hard to build the intimacy and  you start building walls. 
 
Bringing a child into the world is an amazing wonderfull time but, Bert is right. If the father of the child is not supportive and, as in my case..he was having a affair with a 19 year old...15 yrs his junior.  I don't remember being angry as more so hurt, devistated.   There was anger somewhere but, I think i was afraid to feel it. You give and give and then you just can't anymore.  Being a single parent was much easier.
 
Of course there are women who don't have any moral compass either.  I must confess though.... The men seem a bit more stupid...sorry guys.
 
With the hours everyone seems to work..there are going to be relationships in the workplace.  I don't see a problem with it as long as both are single.  I also wouldn't think it any of my business if they weren't but, it would be more destracting to those who are working with them...  And if people are acting in such a way that reduces productivity in the office it is wrong.
 
It is not fun being grabbed.  It happens all the time to  women and I do know it happens to men but, it doesn't happen as often
 
Respect is a wonderful thing and it can make relationships of all kinds...love or work..... develope into a good relationship and more productive workplace.
 
That being said...my employees tease me all the time...but, kindly... and I give it right back.  We can do this because we all respect and enjoy working with each other.  I feel so lucky.
 
I think there are addictions but, is the word "addiction" used as an excuse?
 
Remember go old George's neck rub attack on the German Chancelllor?  He would never have done that to one of the guys.

"good old george's"
 
Please Mr. P  I want spelll c heck for Christmas too and larger font...  my eyes are struggling.

KIM- well said! Weirdly I am going to defend W. My husband & I completely disagree on the Angela Merckel neck rub. I believe it was done quite innocently- it did come off a tad buffoonishly, but I believe he had the best intentions & I did not see it as sexual at all. Maybe best intentions is the wrong choice of words, but it was blown totally out of proportion. And for the record- I'm not a W supporter.

Yes, I agree..he probably did have the "best" intentions .  But, men will take "liberties"  with women that they won't  take with men.  Why is that?

I think it's much easier to physically touch a woman in an innocent way. I will touch a woman's arm very easily, but touching a man can be a loaded thing. Without the sports connection I think men see touching each other as "gay"- laughable -yes, but that is our society.
I still see his rubbing her neck as an awkward "HI."
It's kind of sad that a touch can be so misconstrued. That being said- we can thank the people who have no boundaries & take something innocent to the sexual level- and yes- they are usually men.

Once you  have an established friendship... it is wonderfull to touch and hug our friends..male or female.  It's when there is no established relationship especially in a professional setting that make for awkward moments....
 
And George was such a duffuss (sp????)

KIM- agree. What a wonderful give & take conversation this has been. If you were here I would touch your arm!!! Or hug you!

Thank you.  I can always use a hug.  And am glad the steam in the conversation has lessened.  Or maybe we are the only ones left talking.

KIM- to think that your husband gave up a shimmering diamond for a rhinestone. As Joni Mitchell said so eloquently-"don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you have till it's gone..."

oh, well... thanks,  he turned into a different person...not contact with his family and needless to say with our son.  After many many years of no contact he recently invited our son to be his "friend" on facebook.   Needless to say...the kid isn't interested in facbook anymore.

A point about sexual harassment that I wantto iterate is that sexual harassment is not always about sex THE ACT, where two people copulate for whatever reason or purpose, but often about more primal expressions of dominance that no longer pertain. A lot of men don't get it, but a lot of women don't either:
If a man, perhaps a boss type or the CEO of the enterprise, pats a woman-let us say a younger female who wishes to remain employed and even rise in the company-on her bottom and tells her to go and get him a cup of coffee, he's not expressing a desire to have children with her so much as his dominant position in the situation. The act IS, however, sex-related, for he most likely would not do the same thing with a male in a comparable subordinate position. He'd find another mechanism, such as telling a crappy joke. The male of lesser status would laugh. The female would get coffee....before.
Now we have rules that say this cannot be. If the female protests, or files a complaint, the boss will plead that he was 'just kidding', or 'forgot himself'. Now who is the dominant individual in the relationship? Now who feels resentment? And how will it be expressed?
Had she giggled and brought him coffee, would he protest that he was just joking? Or would he enjoy that cup of coffee quite a bit?
For every male who is harassed, there are thousands of women who suffer the same and worse indignities. The ratio pertains as well in domestic abuse. This is not controversial. There are mountains of research papers and statistics and studies that have proven this over time.
There are no safe houses for abused males, for none are needed. There are many for women, and for children. This is a disgrace. This is not sexual, but behavioural. This speaks to our values as a species, how boys are raised to see females. This indicts the media's portrayal of females as sex objects, as exploitable, as disposable. When a woman resists that depiction she is given a label, and sometimes worse. Sometimes, many times, violence. It has been conservatively estimated that more than EIGHTY PERCENT of women have been molested during childhood, usually by someone in their family, someone they are biologically and instinctively likely to trust.
Family...
Have another look at that conservative estimate. I had difficulty believing it until I recalled my experiences working ER and Trauma Unit. I remember the black eyes, the broken arms, the cigarette burns, the vacant stares, the recoil from the parent. Not ALWAYS the male, just USUALLY. There are always exceptions, but they do not make the rules.
I remember watching a demon beat my mother. Then he came for me.
And not just once, but many times.
The law, via a restraining order, finally saved us, and not a moment too soon. He was arrested while breaking down our door, loaded shotgun in hand.
 
Now think again how she responds to the unsolicited grab in the breakroom, the forced kiss, the leer, the slow lecherous up-and-down look. How many men will get chills of horrid memories when a woman does that to them? You know-not many. But many, MANY women will. And that is SEXUAL HARASSMENT, gentlemen-for those of you who are slow to understand.

A workplace romance is a fire dance in slow motion. Someone is highly likely to be burned.
Guess who?
Who is most likely to be blamed? Who is most likely to lose their job if things get really ugly? Who is most likely to be the expendable subordinate?
I've seen it happen. The surgeon gets a blow job in the stairwell-oops, forgot about the CCTV.
The nurse is resected, the surgeon's still cutting up...
The director screwed his secretary, and his wife found out. It's an open secret in the office. She gets fired, he gets taken to the cleaners, everybody's pissed, lawyers win again. Next scene...
Two colleagues fall in love, long courtship, so sweet, everybody's so happy. Five years down the road, the divorce makes things uncomfortable. Somebody's gotta go.
20,000 Colleagues Under The Sheets? Hard to say, but this show plays every day...
And still, it's going to happen. Some companies have rules about it. Good luck with that.
A college professor, years of rumours about his blatant wannabee womanizer escapades with young and naive (and startled or terrified) female students, is killed in a bizarre motor vehicle acccident.
Bad luck, you say? A hindu would just shrug..."karma".
What goes around comes around-we wish.
See you in our next life-tomorrow.

thank you, Olivia

Sorry to clock in so late. There's lots more where that came from, but Miss Thing is pooped...

me too

Flirt..but be alert.

KINDLEE:   Yours was the Best I heard all day ....... "Complete, don't Compete ..." that is so excellently profound that I wish I had said it .......   Blessings On You .......

 
One hundred and thirty-six posts. Peterman, it seems, has once again put his finger on something vital.

Didn't read it all and apologize if this sad bit is redundant:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/opinion/03brooks.html?hp

Carrying a baby for nine months is not a 'job', it is a labour of love and hope for most.
It is another reason that women must be empowered to be pregnant only when they wish to be, and educated to know how to make it so-or not.

Olivia:  another last evening's posts that I read today -- and again, I say bravo to you.  You covered all points and you brought up the very reason I found it difficult to sleep last night:  that this topic did indeed bring back a dozen or so horrible memories, some I'd kept well buried and was suprised when last night, when I closed my eyes, I remembered, and I was thoroughly shaken, although these happened years ago.  You are so right, you said it best, so I will quote you:
 
"Now think again how she responds to the unsolicited grab in the breakroom, the forced kiss, the leer, the slow lecherous up-and-down look. How many men will get chills of horrid memories when a woman does that to them? You know-not many. But many, MANY women will. And that is SEXUAL HARASSMENT, gentlemen-for those of you who are slow to understand."
 
Excellent, and thank you.

You're welcome, dear. My sisterfriends and all the wonderful EyeGuys lift me up...

Thanks OLIVIA!

Now think again how he responds to the unsolicited gunfire from the enemy, the forced choke-hold around his neck, the leer, the slow lecherous up-and-down look of the enemy as he trains the barrel of his weapon upon you. How many women will get chills of horrid memories of when the enemy did that to them? Not many. But many, many men will. And that is called being a man, for those of you ladies that are slow to understand. I know...us guys invented war.

I like this excerpt from Kiltmen.com:

"Have you ever wondered why men are so screwed up? Perhaps it's because manhood does not come automatically or easily. It is something that must be achieved.

Consider this: The first person with whom a baby boy learns to identify is his mother. Therefore, at the heart of every boy's personality, there is a feminine identity.However, after a few years, the boy learns that society has other plans for him. Society needs men who are tough, aggressive, and fearless: men who can endure pain and obey orders without complaint; men who will do the dirty, dangerous jobs that must be done; men who will be ready to kill in battle, or to charge up a hill into withering machine-gun fire without regard to personal safety. Society puts little value on sissies, wimps, and momma's boys.

Therefore, the boy must be physically and psychologically torn away from his mother and all things feminine, in order to achieve a new, masculine identity. He must go through repeated ordeals to strengthen his body and desensitize his feelings. He must become mortally ashamed of anything soft or feminine within him. He must literally come to believe that he would rather die - actually die! (as in battle) - than to be considered unmasculine or like a woman.

Conformity to the masculine stereotype is ruthlessly enforced. Any boy who seems effeminate, wimpy, or different is unmercifully harassed by his peers. To one degree or another, boyhood consists of repeated fist-fights, bullying, exhibitions of physical prowess, as well as doing some incredibly stupid and dangerous things, in an attempt to prove one's masculinity.

As a result of this conditioning, "masculinity" has too often become nothing but cartoonish posturing - a superficial attempt to avoid any inference of "femininity." True masculinity can and should be more than that. It should be something positive."

That being said, or quoted, I would add that no real man would force himself upon a woman. By all means, if it should happen, call Homeland Security or whoever.

I can't speak for all men, but we are just so different from you gals. We love you, but give us a break. Are us guys really always at the center of all evil? There's a woman in my workplace (ten years younger than I am) that pinches my rear when she walks by, if I'm standing at the counter doing paperwork and no-one is looking. It's just no big deal to me and actually makes me smile. And I have absolutely no interest in this woman sexually. She's just playful. Is this wrong? I'm sure someone at the forum here will think so. It doesn't give me any horrid memories.

I don't expect you to believe me, but there is another girl in my workplace that flirts with me that is thirty-two. Although I think that any thirty-two year old woman that flirts with a sixty year old guy most likely has "daddy issues", I find it flattering and it uplifts my spirits. And yes, I do know the difference between real flirting, and just being playful with the old man. I am a fool, but not a stupid fool.

I will say that I fidn it particularly irritating that I can't wear a kilt to work. I tried it, and was told, by my female boss, not to wear it again, except on Halloween. How absurd it that?