Fourth Estate

Wind turbine controversy heats up

Wind turbine controversy heats up Chicago Tribune Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Wind 'can revolutionise UK power'

Wind 'can revolutionise UK power' BBC News Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Backyard wind turbine rejected by Ontario Municipal Board

Backyard wind turbine rejected by Ontario Municipal Board CBC News Take a look at an interesting article we found.

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I've gone to my farm in Kentucky for the weekend. It's a great place to relax, do a little hard physical labor, and forget about the rest of the world. If you don't have such a place, I highly suggest you get one.

In the meantime, here's a little something that I found for you to read that may indicate change is in the air.

See you on Monday.

J. Peterman

Vineyard Gazette

 

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Under Construction: Design Stuff & Member Commenting - Changes Soon.
61 Members’ Opinions
July 05, 2009 7:17 AM
Atticus_1 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Rolling  out  of  bed  on  a  lazy  Sunday  morning,  I  remembered  that  America  {herein  after  referred  to  as  "The  Old  Girl"}  is  setting  off  on  another  year  of  existence  in  this  a  very  troubled  and  complex  world.  The  old  dog  is  happy  that  somebody  is  up,  hard  to  play  "fetch  the  stick"  all  by  himself.  Troubled  clouds  gathering  across  the  lake,  looks  like  we're  in  for  a  little  commotion.   This  time  every  year  for  me  is  like  New  Year's  Eve  for  most  folks,  to  the  limited  extent  that  I  try  to  assess  where  we  are,  and  where  we're  going.  I  can  spot  what  appears  to  be  an  owl,  confused  by  the  rumbling  of  the  thunder  and  the  darkness  usually  attributed  to  the  night  season.  Owls  always  remind  me  of  "Grumpy"  from  Snow  White.....they  may  be  wise,  but  they  nevertheless  seem  to  need  an  attitude  adjustment.  Hope  all  of  my  virtual  friends  have  a  gentle  reflective  day  with  their   families  and  their  thoughts.....

July 05, 2009 8:59 AM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

Wind turbines off the Massachusetts coast....well, shiver me timbers!   Spain has thousands and thousands of 'windmills' (21st century update of Quixote's 'dragons') .  And the Dutch drained their polders over the centuries with wind power.... So, America, late to dinner, has joined in....  And into my mind pops old song lyrics: 'Whereever the winds may blow, wherever the rain may fall, wherever my heart leads me, baby I must go...

July 05, 2009 9:27 AM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

For some reason, when I think of wind farms on the ocean, I also think of the movie, 'The City of Lost Children'  http://i15.tinypic.com/34j2ec0.jpg ; .  And here's a pastiche 'clip' of scenes from this awesome film: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1532512803
  

July 05, 2009 9:28 AM
Me_and_dave 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Andy said...

So enjoy reading both Junkyard Dog and Doc Nolan -- thanks for once again entertaining. 

July 05, 2009 9:31 AM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

And for those uninterested in diving into the human mind (yeah, The City of Lost Children really IS freaky!), here's a mundane, plain vanilla, but interesting on the analogue of wind power generation..... 

Hiding the vanes underwater, out of sight, and using water currents to make electric current (heh, heh):  http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18567/

July 05, 2009 9:38 AM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

thanks for the second link, for those of us unable to comprehend the depth and velocity of subjects.
 
blow me over, winds of knowledge.
 
 
 

July 05, 2009 9:40 AM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


 


I think we should circle the "beltway" with windmills. There is enough hot air in D. C. to power the whole East Coast !

July 05, 2009 9:46 AM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

right on miss blue.....just what i was thinking......!

July 05, 2009 9:51 AM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

http://www.swl-wc.usace.army.mil/WCDS/Reports/Data/Greersf.htm
 
about six hours up stream.  this nation has a plethra of natural energy resourses, already in use.  the mwh generated are sent into the grid. 
 
 

July 05, 2009 10:05 AM
10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 unhinged said...

Doc, they talked about the underwater turbines for somewhere on the east coast, I want to say Long Island Sound, and then oil got cheap again.  There is a large wind farn on Tug Hill in NY, an area with more cows than people bordered on one side by Lake Ontario and the other the Adirondack Mountains.  I drive by it going from my parents to my wife's parents and its something to see.  I have heard the one drawback is more mosquitos, bats are attracted to the noise the turbines make.  I have to find out about the profitability etc. but mosquitos are a small price to pay.
 

July 05, 2009 10:10 AM
10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 unhinged said...

One problem with so many of these projects is the cost of transmission lines to get power from the allowable nimby site to the population center where its needed.  The lines create another problem altogether.  If only hot air could be harnessed.

July 05, 2009 10:14 AM
Atticus_1 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Andy:  Thanks  so  much  for  the  compliment,  lumping  me  in  the  same  batter  with  Doc  Nolan  is  flattering.    Here  I  get  to  write  from  my  heart,  unencumbered  by  someone  else's  agenda  or  some  censor's  odious  intrusions.   Love  the  family  photo  you  include  on  your  modest  profile  page,  the  one  with  your  uncles,  both  civilian  and  military,  circa  WWII.   I  have  pictures  of  my  own  uncles  scattered  here  and  there  around  my  home  office,  arm  &  arm  with  their  comrades.   Your  comment  about  an  informal  code  of  silence  by  and  between  true  heroes  is  right  on  point.  Different  result  as  to  discussions  of  the  technology  or  the  tactics  of  the  times.  The  true  moments  of  courage  are  always   bittersweet,  those  times  when  suddenly  you  realize  that  there  will  be  no  more  bombers   returning  safely  to  base,  that  you  will  have  to  be  the  one  to  deal  with  the  unanswered  letters  of  the   widows  and  girlfriends.   Think  I  will  go  out  and  play  "fetch"  with  this  stupid  old  dog  one  more  time,  it  turns  his mind  away  from  his  yearning  for  his  master,  who  will  never  be  coming  home  again.....

July 05, 2009 10:20 AM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


Migratory Birds are a consideration....the windmills always win.


So far as underwater turbines go, there is still debate concerning what effects( if any) are due to the 600+ pilings of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel at the mouth of the Bay. Might be a great place to harness the tides.

July 05, 2009 10:53 AM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

what about grist mills? (i know it's a stretch for me, but isn't that a water turbine?) everything moving, is energy matter, some just not harnessed,  nuclear is green, unless used for darkness.  balance is difficult between the mind and heart, the planet and people, animals rights versus humans.  in this beautiful river, natural gases just bubble up....un regulated by mankind...so far...
 
the continental divide plays with the natural water and gas distributions .
 
where there's smoke there's fire,and who hasn't started a fire with a magnifying glass? so much to put under the microscope in the ying and yang of all live's to be in equanimous and harmonious balance.
 
question everything. 
 
 
 

July 05, 2009 10:55 AM
Atticus_1 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Bert said...

Andy:  found  a  link  I  thought  might  give  you  some  reflective  moments...
 
      http://youtube.com/watch?v=wNIHbfJ1k

July 05, 2009 11:44 AM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

totally off topic, but i can tie it in with my hot air blowing......those who even read my rambling thoughts might recall my love of animals, especially my "old" guard dog, who is aggitated by thunder storms.  add in 72 hours of blasting, beautiful non the less, fireworks, that shake the foundation of my home, with weekenders...the dog is tired this sunday morning, as is her partner, young joker.....any who......these lovely people decided young joker to be such a friendly dog, and well mannered to boot, to keep him as their own...went so far as to keep him in their house, as i roamed the street calling for joker.......hello?...no firework bans or leash laws, out here in the wild...why i came to the country side....a dog with a "life is good" collar on.....?????? there, there's my hot air, on this beautiful crisp riverside morning...as i leash my dog for a walk.....good grief...it happens

July 05, 2009 11:51 AM
4220 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Daniel Zev said...

Wind Turbines in the sea? Helping to counteract climate change by building things in the ocean causing "minimal" enviromental impact? Honestly, wouldn't the money be better spent making our current methods for generating power more fuel and enviromentally efficient while at the same time researching truly alternative fuels? I hear cold fusion works in theory. Perhaps we should invest money in that. 

July 05, 2009 12:14 PM
1-dscn1106-4 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 PARK4 said...

cuukoo, I am a regular and delighted reader of your thoughts...they make much sense, maybe more...about the dog, your dog.  Good god, I would have had their heads.  Or a piece of my mind.  The country life, as I've found out too, has its problems.  Less than city life, though.  Much much less.  Nonetheless, shame on the hooligans, and you can hope they're just visiting over the holiday weekend?

July 05, 2009 12:23 PM
1-dscn1106-4 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 PARK4 said...

I agree with you Daniel; I wonder why it is that the more complicated and costly ideas are usually the most attractive.  And silly and wasteful, but like new toys I guess, lots of fun to wish for and think about. Reminds me:  yesterday we watched a fellow across the road take out a tree with a pick up truck.  After a good hour of screeching, burnt rubber, yelling, hand waving, cussing, and gasoline fumes flooding the road -- the two geniuses involved in this endeavor pulled out two shovels and within 15 minutes the tree was up and out and into the woodpile. Digging it out was cheaper, quicker, and more effective that trying to pull it out with the truck. But they had to try the truck first. People are like that.  I don't know why.
  

July 05, 2009 12:33 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


I( being a strong advocate of self sufficiency) would like to harvest the methane from my septic tank to run my propane( can be converted) generator( can run lights, fans, dishwasher, water pump and clother washer when needed),kitcken range , waterheater and auxillary heat.


 Getting the necessary permits from the county, state and feds... would be like pulling eye teeth.


I'm with Zev on tweeking current technology.


This is where the stimulus money should have gone.....


If every family was given ten grand to upgrade home insulation, install solar ( or mathane driven) home upgrades we would have financed new technologies through free market and free enterprise not BIG GOVERNMENT and made strides in energy efficiency etc.


 


Cuukoo....sorry about the pup...we have an ass-ole down the neck here that shoots dogs yet allows his 30 or so peafowl run loose destroying gardens, roofs and crapping all over ...calls them livestock and evoked the states free rang livestock laws to protect them. I got a big dog( Cookie) a couple of years ago...solved my problem... Cookie told me they taste like chicken!

July 05, 2009 1:17 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

Hello,all,I  make my living in the air quality/conditioning field. Fully one third of energy usage goes to quality of life use,as in refrigeration(for food/medicine)temperature humidity control,and heat. Lighting,also consumes a larger than necessary portion.If,indeed,conservation replaced the drive for more,we would be very comfortable as we are now,energy production-wise.The 800 pound monkey on our backs is the heat produced by light, an unusable portion of which we then pay to remove (as in commercial buildings).There are so many new strategies to light,and power,and clean the water we need for life,that we will be using 10 years from now, it boggles the mind.I like the concept of multiple micro windmills,possibly roof mounted,as adjunct power generation,in concert with silicon thin film solar.But on a more do-able project;making the hot water from your drain system heat the incoming water to your hot water heater. Simply coil copper around the drain pipe,and make that the pipe that feeds the hot water tank. You paid to heat that water going down the drain.

July 05, 2009 1:21 PM
39steps3 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Olivia said...

Could political bloviation
Pissing moaning victimization
Windmill birdkill generation
Harnessed be for energetic?
Auto gas fume peripatetic
Or could we be less mad frenetic?
Walking biking work at home?
But oh we love the shiny chrome
Rubber hot and freeway drome
Ignore the progress others make
Must we burn for burning's sake?
Must we give less than we take?
Or can we learn to live with less?
Others have-we can I guess
It may be a survival test
Questions many answers few
I often wonder what to do
Do you get those same feelings too?
 
 

July 05, 2009 1:33 PM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

thanks miss blue and park4....very much and sincerely.


when i drive into the closest metro area, the difference in the landfill, just outside the larger metro area, changes the landscape as it grows into larger pyramid shapes.  from it burns towers of flame,huge, fueled by exactly what you speak of miss blue.  methane from garbage. i think to my self...what a waste. why not capture and use that wasted energy.  it sits next to a once beautiful bayou, full of waterfoul and aquatic life, natural cypress bogs and such.  it's covered now in a  weird foul smelling slime... as they push out into the backwaters with the landfill....now i'm probably sounding like a tree hugging loving something or other, i'm NOT!!  wood(a.k.a.tree farm) is a natural renewable resource, as is corn and many other harvestable crops.  use em' renew em' put a little work into em'..the heat escaping from the flames could turn windmills....turbines..hook em' all up to the grids....and how bout chicken manure, green horse manure, on and on...so many options how difficult is it to see what beans create in gases in the human body...recreate the same circumstances under different environments..,,,say,,,, hook up the politicians with egg and bean and salsa meals, then as they talk, debate and spend, capture all their gases and hot air, then heat and cool the chambers of congress with their own renewable green gases.  just food for thought.

July 05, 2009 1:59 PM
Photo 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Peter Lake said...

Olivia,

You certainly have a wonderful way with words and I agree that less is more (energy usage,..... not words, except of course when I ramble on like I'm beginning to right now in which case less is definitely more...... nuff said). Well said poet!

 

Cuukoo1,

I'm very sorry to hear about your pup. Be well!

 

Park4,

Did you look southward and see our fireworks of the Fox? All that stood between us and the firework display was water and ducks and they seemed to be used to it. Hope yours were spectacular too.

 


Over & out...... exit stage right..


July 05, 2009 2:14 PM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

boson ivy covers my homes structure, lends to the grandmaw's house in the woods, for little red riding hood.  planted it on the west side years ago, it has now spread all the way around to the north and east sides.  saves tons of energy in cooling properties. lets the sun in, in the winter,too.  changes to a brillant, beautiful fall color.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_ivy
 
that's all the energy i have to put towards energy.  going to swing in the hammock as i watch the weekenders pack to leave, sure that they enjoyed the country life.  jokers waiting
too.
 

July 05, 2009 2:51 PM
1-dscn1106-4 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 PARK4 said...

Lucky you, boston ivy covered house, cuukoo.  So beautiful.  Northwestern University's campus has the ivy covered stone walls, and in the autumn. it's beyond words beautiful, the color!  Green is nice, but autumn ivy leaves are a marvel.  And PeterLake, yessir, indeed I did think of you and yours and in between the sparkling and booming here on Lake Geneva, I could almost swear I heard the celebration on the Fox, where you were.  Everyone's a kid again, when the fireworks begin, aren't we?  Ooh and ahh and I'm hitting the hammock for a little while too.  All that fun does me in.

July 05, 2009 4:18 PM
10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 unhinged said...

Totally off topic, but today in 1937 Hormell introduced "SPAM" to the world.  One of those things that makes this country great.

July 05, 2009 5:30 PM
1-dscn1106-4 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 PARK4 said...

I have never ever had SPAM.  Ever.  I feel a certain obligation to have just a bite, to say I did, but I look at the picture, and I stare at that can it's in, and I just can't bring myself to do it.  If hot dogs have mystery parts in it, I have to believe SPAM has too.  I mean, just look at it.  It needs more color, I think, SPAM does.  A little more color and maybe I'd try it..........Nah.  I'd rather eat evergreen branches. (?) Just joking.

July 05, 2009 6:07 PM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

if'in's you can eat a mushroom, you can eat spam. 
 
it's packed in my survival kit, along with some twinkies.
 
fried in an old seasoned iron skillet just right, you'd never know it wasn't a pork chop.
 

July 05, 2009 6:20 PM
1-dscn1106-4 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 PARK4 said...

Well, I can eat a mushroom...it's that kind of texture, eh?  Maybe when it goes on sale I'll pick up a can (laughing) -- along with one of those boxes of 12 Twinkies.  I forgot about them:  they're made out of plastic so they're perfect for that much needed sugar hit when you're in survival mode.  Maybe if I put some ketchup on it?...when it goes on sale (does SPAM ever go on sale?).  I hope not.  Funny!  Twinkies and SPAM.  What a Brave New World.

July 05, 2009 6:21 PM
1-dscn1106-4 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 PARK4 said...

It's kind of "bouncy" to chew, that's it, huh?  Like one of those little balls that come with jacks?

July 05, 2009 6:30 PM
10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 unhinged said...

Have to add this, no discussion of Spam is complete without it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

July 05, 2009 6:39 PM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

depends, (and we'll probably need them in the survival kit too) it wasn't the texture, so much, as where they each come from.  at that point and time when i'll be eating my spam and twinkies from the survival kit, i'll probably venture down to the rivers edge and begin experimenting with sushi rice(that's what i'll be calling grass gone to seed), wrapped in moss from the shoals, or an iris leaf, topped with raw trout, or crawdads.  way past the wind being captured for energy, at a profitable margin, point.  i like my cash in cows, goats and veggies. (none of which i've acquired, so far) now mushrooms grow wild around here, and i'll have to be mighty hungry to eat one. i will if neccessary.  mind over matter. 
 
potatoe vodka will help. 

July 05, 2009 7:26 PM
3905 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1 cuukoo1 said...

unhinged, i loved the link.  are you the one that put the link with the brain surgeon?  thank you for the opportunity to laugh.  the vikings!!!
 
back to the wind, i'm wondering how much non green energy will be used in the building of these, how much damage to the vineyards from doing so, and at what point they become cost effective.  can you build windmills out of.....air?

July 05, 2009 7:53 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

Just had some fresh picked strawberries,up here at the south shore of Superior. I did go the distance,from Elgin to Madeline island.   Saw Warren  Nelson(is everyone named Nelson there??)play and sing,he formerly of Big Top Chitaqua.  Nelson realty,Nelson carpentry.Nelson plumbing.Nelson painting....even the owner of Tom's burned out is a Nelson.Small town Weeeeesconsin,way up Nort (sic),Brule Forest,flowage...car shows,fireworks,crafts....took a few snapshots to upload,but my GSM signal here is very slow, so you will see them tuesday,when we get home....even have a snapshot to anwer the age old question...bear poo just a couple of yards from the parked roadyacht...Methane is the future of power in the third world;Dean kane, the inventer of the Segway,and more importantly,the implantable insulin pump,and other medical lifesaving wonders, has a maintnance free power unit powered by a poop pit, to bring L.E.D. light, and fresh water, to the outback.

July 05, 2009 8:24 PM
1-dscn1106-4 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 PARK4 said...

Hello to roadyacht!  You have certainly covered some miles, sounds like you're having fun.  Keep safe, and can't wait to see the pics!

July 05, 2009 8:25 PM
10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 unhinged said...

Cuukoo, glad to provide a laugh.  Back to one of you earlier comments today and tying in with the cost of all this, at one point I had heard that if all the old hydro plants were recommissioned and upgraded there would be more than sufficient electricity in the US.  I doubt this still holds true, we continually come up with new ways to consume.  But I also know there are a number of dams that no longer produce power in upstate NY.  One problem becomes the environmental impact, another the location and proximaty to population and transmission and another is whether it is worth hooking to the grid.
 
A number of years ago I was on a town committee reviewing a municipal power company.  At the time our local power company was divesting all of its generation (at the state public service commissions orders).  We happened to have a hydro plant in the town which looked easy enough to take by eminent domain and start making power. 
 
Our little town committee got our come uppence.  First there is the transmission lines and maintenance.  Then there is the whole grid thing and the competatively selling power.  Then there is staffing and maintaining the turbine.  The final straw was the dam sitting above all our homes, none of us wanted the liability of something going wrong on our watch.  We gave up it the end and an out of state power company bought the damn.  It was wild to be on the committee and explore how it all worked. 
 
In the last couple of years two crazy things happened, the hundred year flood came and everything remained intact.  The following year the lake behind the dam which is shared by the Erie Canal, was nearly drained to feed the canal.  Power production was halted until rain came and the lake started to rise. 

July 05, 2009 8:45 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


unhinged, roadyacht et el...


The powers that be want us to remain dependent on their grid....


If I tap my own sources of methane( septic tank etc) I won't be dependent on the utility company for power to run my well etc.


I know I sound paranoid to most but....

July 05, 2009 8:50 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


unhinged


water rights....another stinky kettle of fish.

July 05, 2009 9:17 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

By fedral(sic) statute, you may sell back any power you make,over what you consume,and as long as you are not making commercial amounts, your normal transmission lines,(100-200 amps)should suffice.I think it has to do with an I.C.C. ruling,involving the power produced over state lines being "not produced".It's crazy I know, but I have worked on domestic power that has the reversable meters that allow the sale to the power provider when there is surplus.Remember,there is a "don't look behind the curtain"aspect to the people that tell us we need a new grid, without explaining that it is only necessary for a NEW MMKH power production facility,that is not a replacement,nor upgrade.   Miis Blue pins it.Read that great book by Edwin Black, about the internal combustion engine; it goes way into the history of  COAL to NEWCASTLE, the first electric autos(1911 New York cabs,because horse poop turned into a dust storm in summer),and how electric light-rail was stolen from our muni's by GM,under the guise of smelly diesel buses being better(theirs,of course)...I digress, but it is a good read,fast,informative, and plenty of plot for you plot needers.

July 05, 2009 9:27 PM
10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Stoney said...

  In early May, in fact the weekend before the lake flies came, the people that stuck millions into the old yacht club mansion to make a big time social venue out of it, had an open house.

If here is a place that I would rather find myself of a fine spring evening than on that big upper porch (see sailing photo) with a drink in my hand, I don't yet know about it.

The fairness of the evening and the view were only enhanced by a crackerjack compact squall that had brought all of the M-16 scows hurrying back into the little harbor. A pretty good measure, right there, of sailing ability.

My wife was inside in conversation with friends and I was just plain glad to be standing there.

Off to my right, a mature woman was having a different kind of experience. With a death grip on the rail and staring off across the lake, she looked either like someone on the edge of seizure or attempting to pass a pineapple.

It turned out to be, in fact, the same view that I was treasuring that had enraged her. By squinting and in just the perfect evening light, she was able to make out the wind farm ten miles across the lake and it ruined everything.

My prior innocent comment regarding its beauty had not helped.

Some little white saliva balls formed at the corners of her mouth, others were launched into space under which the unsuspecting stood unaware.

She fumed, cursed and gestured unsteadily pointing out that it was the most heinous corruption of the natural environment ever.

It seemed pointless, just then, to inquire as to whether she had ever seen a strip mine or coal fired power plant, but I did my best to defend the premise of pollution-free clean quiet energy. It didn't work.

She made it clear that we would: "Live to see the folly of this madness!" and I suppose that the first time a massive fish kill occurs owing to a toxic windspill, that I will have to look her up and apologize.    

In the meantime, I really wish that you all could see them in the setting sun.   

July 05, 2009 9:36 PM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

Lots of good insights today -- but the overwhelming impression is a bit depressing.  Lots of knowledge is stalled in bureaucratic inertia (and simple lack of willpower).  It's obvious that a more energy efficient world could have been built -- but it wasn't.  It's obvious that things can be built to use less energy -- but they aren't.  It's obvious that a variety of energy sources could be deployed in a matter of years -- but we talk in terms of decades.   

The (sad) analogy is the 'rebuilding' of New Orleans.... I think of Pudong (opposite Shanghai), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudong ; It went from farmland in 1990 to a city of 1,500,000 today . Pudong is building a 121-story skyscraper.  ---- Then look at sad New Orleans.  (Let's avoid thinking about the stalled 'redevelopment project' at the site of the former Twin Towers in Manhattan......)  ....... The problem is not lack of technology, lacki of imagination, or lack of resources.  It's simply that America is 'stuck' in a groove of inertia (hemmed in by special interests) and doesn't know how to get up.

July 05, 2009 9:41 PM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

To belabor my points, take a train trip in Europe or in Japan -- and then compare it to the American train network.  The airline industry has worked hard to keep rail from competing.  (In Texas, a plan to join Houston, Dallas, Austin, and San Antonio was strangled before birth....).  Again, the only thing that was needed was to IMITATE the Europens and Japanese (no innovation required at all!).  But.... nothing.  Stasis.  Stagnation.  Endless 'discussions'.  Paralysis.  -----  So, don't expect much in the way of energy innovation.  America has been discussing it since the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973, and it will be discussing it in 2073.  Statis.  Stagnation. Paralysis.     

July 05, 2009 9:51 PM
M 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Penn said...


 


Today's  discussion reminds me of Don Quixote.  Are wind turbines ....like windmills truly our enemy?  I would not ask the question if I knew the answer.


Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."


"What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.


"Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."


"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."

July 05, 2009 10:14 PM
10photoviewsCom-100First-comFirst-photoHr-1 unhinged said...

Something which haunts me with wind power is the experience of a friend.  He is a fairly prominent energy engineer who put up a turbine at his home.  After several years a capacitor went it, probably $2 at the most.  The cost of the crane versus the power it could produce made spin idly.  I believe to this day.


Doc, I see technologies in glass which would knock your socks off.  Photovoltaic cells on glass, glass changing tints, glass with reflective capabilities and R values unheard off.  The technology is ready, we just need a motovating factor.  I hope your wrong that we will talk about this in 2073.

July 05, 2009 10:14 PM
M 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Penn said...

PS- my apologies for not reading "Tilting at Windmills" up above ...before MY above writing...in due respect...I still stand by my question.

July 05, 2009 10:14 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

Doc, the railroads were way before the aero planes...and,if you noticed,they cover much shorter distances over the pond,and go from city center to same, something our nimby would never let be...and some mountain areas still use electric, and the one going down the hill is producing most of the power for the one going up...we have greater distances,and more cago to carry, and wider roads,usually.  There are a lot of arguments that can be made for why our system evolved this way, not the least of which is utility.I am definately not a shill for Power Co.    In fact, how come the water from washing you hands in the bathroom basin is not used to flush the commode right next to it? Fresh potable water to flush waste? Or rainwater to lawn water?Check out the power consumption difference in forced air heat v. hydronic floor.

July 05, 2009 10:17 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

windmill farms, in my humble opinion...and it is only that, will just add one more special intrest group to suck up my tax dollars and add G-d knows how many more environmental problems, one being danger to migratory birds.
We have not made solar epuipment and existiong "green" technologies affordable to the homeowner. The government is throwing our money to the Banks etc instead of paying for its citizens to upgrade their homes( energy efficient appliances, better windows, insulation etc.)
Prediction......the auto dealerships that were put out of business by the GM government mandated reconstruction will be "reopened" in 2 years to sell all of those new hybrid/ alternative autos, and will be handed to "friends" of the government, not the disenfranchised family business owers who were in business for generations.

As for mass transit...there is NO REASON a fast rail system cannot be built and operated in the template of our current interstate system instead of adding more and more lanes and interchanges. all major cities would be serviced on the already established transportation routes. Yere is probably enough land already easement to do this.Instead of bailing out the auto industry, why was mastransit not made a priority in the stimulus package....oh I need to shut up . Srt of War is on...one of my favorite reads....

No, I'm not a right winged nut case.

July 05, 2009 10:19 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

Oh yes, and the removal of the solar water heaters from our White House.Expect their return soon? or windmills?

July 05, 2009 10:25 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

Axial wind mills look like a barrel, with some staves missing,and the rest twisted, and they will not hurt birds or bats, and they do not need massive winds, and they do not need to be very big,or tall.Solar water heat is effective. Solar collectors.,called fresnel,would make small footprint power for you use,taking you off grid part of the time.

July 05, 2009 10:27 PM
4224 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-reviewFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 RoadYacht said...

How many light switches do you have in your home? Now how many thermostats? Imagine only one switch to turn on/off all the lights in your home. 

July 05, 2009 10:34 PM
1521 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1Hr-5 Shandonista said...

There really is not enough land owned by the various transportation departments in each state to develop a rail system alongisde the highway system.  Much more land would have to be purchased and these days, thankfully, there is better protection for the individual landowner against the incursion of the state transportation mandate.  In other words, the state can rarely get away with splitting up a neighborhood of poor folks just to put an interstate or rail system through.  I drive down a four lane road every day in my town where the road is about one foot from the porch columns of one unlucky house.  That is a travesty that no one should endure.
 
As for the windfarm idea, from what I've seen, on the mountains in PA, the apparatus is attractive and quiet.  I don't like the idea of birds being harmed but I would bet money that the airlines chew up many more birds than slow-moving windmills.  Birds are very adept at avoiding threats, you know, excellent eyesight and all.
 
And like Stoney's cocktail hour companion, I'd probably be shocked at the sight.  Unlike the pineapple-passer, I would frankly be intrigued at the sight of something so useful, so quiet, and so clean - whether it ruined my view or not. 

July 05, 2009 10:42 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


 


Hubbie and I have talked about the "axial" and screw type wind mills....


I don't think they would generate enough power for the cost. They can be mounted lower to the ground but don't produce as much power....more wind at higher levels. also wonder what type of hoops the county and neighbors would make us jump through.


 


We have 2 climate zones. A basement under the main house helps heating and cooling.


Shade trees and porches on the south side and evergreens on the north side. The South facing windows have plantation shutters in the room that has no south trees...help insulate in summer and winter. all water pipes are insulated. Plan to replace the current water heater with an on demand type when this one dies....should be soon...due to slightly acidic nature of our ground water, we have to replace them every 12 years or so. The heat pump will need to be replaced in one zone soon....will probably break that into 2 zones when we do that. large amounts of money can solve a lot...


 


When the house was built, only 4in walls were code in this state...took it to 6 inch with much dificulty from the contractor.

July 05, 2009 10:47 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 Shandonista...I was refering to the interstate system.....usually plenty of land for very long stretches along most of what i travel.
 
 
How much power/ green house gases would be saved by turning the lights off in Time Square, Las Vegas etc for 12 hours a day? Looking for figures but no luck. Anyone?

July 05, 2009 10:52 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

 


 


I used to "amuse" the CEO's of major  national/ International Wine companies by traveling to meetings in NYC on the bus that leaves Exmore Va at Midnight and arrives at the transit authority at 6:30 Am. I would sleep on the way up ,get early checkin, take a nap and shower and have a nice breakfast as they were racing from the airport to make the meetings on time on a red eye flight that was usually delayed somewhere.

July 05, 2009 10:59 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

  I live in the sticks in a beautiful environmentally diverse landscape of breathtaking beauty. we recycle what we can. we conserve water and operate our home in a more energy efficient manner than most.
Our community doesn't want the solid waste from your cities , don't want our water rights taken away to provide for cities that continue to grow with no planning etc and I don't want to spoil our view or whatever to provide power for cities.

July 05, 2009 11:09 PM
1198 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Doc Nolan said...

...roadyacht: "how come the water from washing you hands in the bathroom basin is not used to flush the commode right next to it? "  Interestingly, in Japan, when one flushes the toilet, a jet of water comes out of the top of the tank in which one washes one's hands... then the water returns to its task of providing a 'carrier' in which the human waste is flushed away...

July 05, 2009 11:14 PM
39steps3 10photoviews10videoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoFirst-videoHr-1Hr-10Hr-5 Olivia said...

Willpower to windpower to freethinking innovation deviation of resources outsources to sorcery serious need against the greed the grain the seed the rain the run of luck run out of town run down into the ground a rut a cut a tax cut an oil glut a hard nut to crack when the heads crack roll backroom barroom bedroom headroom full of blues is no news is good news and the years roll by stroll by scroll by and no change derange from high to low and to and fro and touch and go a touch of the hand outstretched for the reach to baksheesh the grease the wheels the lube the deals the squeals of the pigs in the abbatoir the choir the voices upraised in chorus watch for us take care of us the special the interested the special interest powercord corridors of power to will to will power to wind power?


"Just a wee Joycean riff to round off the evening, lads and lassies" Olivia trills as she tosses her head and strolls off down the lane where the clurachan was seen, into the gloaming, lilting a melody, fading into the distance...


Tim Finnegan lived in Watling Street


He was gentleman Irish, though mighty odd


He'd a beautiful brogue, so rich and sweet


And to rise in the world he carried a hod.


 


Now Tim had a sort of a tippler's way


With a love of the liquor he was born


And to help him along with his work each day


He'd a drop of the craytur every morn!


Whack for the di do, dance to your partner


Round the floor your trotters shake


Wasn't it the truth I told ye?


Lots of fun at Finnegan's wake!

July 05, 2009 11:14 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

  Doc, roadyacht
 
 
grey water and black water seperation and reuse of the grey water should be mandated.

does Kohler or American Standard offer a system yet?  The overflow from too much grey water could be released into the sewage system along with the black water.

July 05, 2009 11:19 PM
Poison_dart_frog_2 10photoviewsCom-100Com-300Com-500First-comFirst-photoHr-1 Miss Blue said...

    Also, we need to stop agribusiness from pumping our groundwater aquifers dry and mandate water reclaimation and use for agriculture from sewage treatment facilities.

Prime Web

Tilting at Windmills

Tilting at Windmills phrases.org. Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Powering the Future: Altenative Energy Sources

Powering the Future: Altenative Energy Sources odec.ca Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Harnessing the Wind

Harnessing the Wind time.com Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Honor Roll



still thinking about today...


Yesterday's Discussion

July 3, 1776. The clock was ticking, much was ahead, but the foundation was set.

 

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