Growing Vertical

An interesting idea by Mr. Fischetti, if not an original one.

I am thinking about "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down," an award-winning nonfiction book by my friend Anne Fadiman, daughter of Clifton Fadiman, former editor of Phi Beta Kappa's "The American Scholar," and now Yale faculty. Fadiman's book is a chronicle of Hmong immigrants in Orange County, California, and of how neither they nor us could adapt to the other. The title is the literal translation of a Hmong term for what we call epilepsy. In Hmong culture, to have epilepsy is to be "en-thused" in the Greek sense, to have God and his power in you, thrashing through you. Hmong children with epilepsy are thus treasured, and never treated, even when an intervening American medical system foists treatment upon them.

Fadiman carefully and faithfully depicts how the Hmong diaspora settle into life in urban American. This includes bringing bag after bag of dirt to establish an array of several-inch-deep growing soil in each apartment and in more than one room of every apartment, as well as atop the rooves. The Hmong are indefatigably agrarian, and the idea of not growing their own food was taken as anathema.

In the Hmong method, several Hmong famiies occupying several floors of an apartment complex were assured of year-round fresh vegetables, as an extended Hmong clan among numerous apartments might functionally have acres under cultivation vertically.

  KSS,

Thank God for you. On point as ever.


@!#%&*#!, Killed another blender yesterday. That makes, I think, six since we began making fruit shakes for out in-town daughter who feels that she gets quite a bit of benefit from them: two cheapies; two Cuisinart Smoothies which had the benefit of a dispensing spigot but were no fun to clean and did not last and two Bartechs which cost only about a hundred bucks and didn't hold up either.

Capacity of 48 oz. is important or it would have to be done more often than every three days.

The orange juice, yogurt, bananas, cherry juice concentrate and powdered supplements are not the problem. It is the frozen Michigan Fruit mix of; apples, peaches, strawberries, cherries and lastly the blueberries that make it a challenge to blenders.

Considering the time we spend away, the thing has only to function about one hundred times a year for three minutes. To get a full year out of one is not easy.

If one of you in Eyeville has a suggestion, please pass it along and I will try it.

Thanks,
S

Whatever the mind of man can dream up ... man can, and will, eventually do ....... That does NOT mean, however, that there are not some things that just should not be done ...  Stacking Hot Houses may seems like a very bright idea, but the maintenance costs alone, for the Structure(s) would be staggering, where as it takes very little to maintain dirt ... One thing to consider, as a Positive aspect for taking Green Acres vertical, is that it would necessarily have to become more Labor Intensive, ( providing jobs) in order to avoid the inherent problems of Mechanization, indoors ... and if we go to all-Electric impliments and machinery, what about the additional drain on our Power Sources, which we already have myriad problems with ??? And if we go to Batteries, what about the fact that both Texas A&M and MIT proved back in 1964 that Battery Powered Vehicles pollute the atmosphere more than conventionally powered automobiles, with the vile and corrosive acids and fumes they put off, especially in an enclosed space ... Yes Virginia, as stated in a previous Topic Discussion, Electric Cars have been tried out dozens of times since the Baker Electric of the early 1900's ... and all have been marginal at best, just like the junk they've come up with lately ... Every twenty years or so, another budding Gyro Gearloose or Rube Goldberg passes Ninth Grade Science, and becomes inspired to produce a larger and more utilitarian Golf Cart ... But, back To The Tobacco; (No Pun Intended) Vertical Growing is not a new idea either ... the Commercial Growers of Hops(of the Cannabaceae Family ... whatcha think that might be related to???) have been doing it for centuries ... and again, stacking Hot Houses will be fraught with difficulties that are just easier to deal with on the ground, so to speak ....... The Roof an average House weighs between 7000 and 8000 pounds ... Any idea what the total weight of all the soil packed onto each floor of your GardenTower is going to be ??? What about Irrigation, venting, drainage, and the weight of all that ??? How deep can each floor's worth of soil be, and at what point would it become necessary to use Chemical Fertilizers to keep the soil productive ???  Or would one counsel removing and replacing all the soil every three years or so ... What is THAT going to cost ???  And there is a host of other problems inherent in the entire scheme that haven't even been touched upon .......
 
Why not consider stopping the insanity of wasting arable land with in-ground interment ???  How about Refurbishing existing buildings and structures and taking them up to superior Safety Standards, and perhaps even re-assigning the use of some structures to a new and more necessary function ??? Why not turn a dis-used Office Building or Complex into Apartments, or Hotels ???  Why should we keep tearing down pieces of History and replacing them with characterless, artless, sterile looking monoliths of chrome and glass ???  Why build new Highways, when we can beef up the ones we already have ???  How many Towns and Communities have been bypassed and destroyed by a new twelve lane Interstate Raceway ??? Hell, even Stuckeys is disappearing ... Personally, I like their Pecan Logs .......  The point is, that we have for a Century used Land in what we believe, or what we have been told, is the Highest and Best use ... and we have discovered the folly of some of that thinking, long since ... I have seen it happen many times, where some Whiz-Bang, Boy-Genius Engineer (who doesn't even know what a SlideRule is) goes rushing out into the Shop with some piece of Equipment or Machinery he has designed, Blueprints flapping and rustling as he proudly rockets toward the Shop Foreman, he hands the Old Man his bundle of flawlessly executed Engineering Drawings(prolly Computer Generated)(Kid prolly doesn't know what a T-Square is either) and says, "Here Pop, build me this !!!"  The Old Man is actually only in his late fifties/early sixties ... Got an Eighth Grade Education, and learned to be a Machinist while in the NAVY ... As Jurassic Pop turns to his work table to study the Excellent Drawings(Pop remembers when CAD was what his Doctor made House Calls in and drove to church on Sunday) After several Pipes, and a half pot of really bad coffee, the Old Man turns around and tells no one in particular that, "It won't work ... " ... Feelings still smarting, but resolute, The Whiz convinces the Shop Owner that it WILL work, and that he has all the Computer assists and Calculations to prove that it will make a Million Dollars ... So Pop builds it exactly the way it was designed on paper, and computer-blitzed ad nauseum,  and when the proud day comes, they fire that mother up, and it won't work .......  Let us go and find all those Old Guys, who learned it all the hard way, who made every conceivable mistake there is in learning, who REALLY started paying attention after they duplicated a mistake or two, who have seen every thing and done every thing ... and let us get their opinions on these new Space Age ideas, before we waste Time, Money, and Effort, while destroying History for nothing ....... Of course, one of these neaty-poo ideas just might make a little History, like MacDonalds ....... but Like MacDonalds, should it really be done ???

STONEY:  See if you can find yourself a, VITAMIX  Mixer/Blender/Processor ... I'ver still got one I paid six hundred dollars for, about 30 years ago, and it still works like a charm ... Has all sorts of Blades and stuff, but I rarely ever do anything but use the Basic Blade ... All Stainless Steel, even the Cup, 52 Ounce Capacity, and a motor so powerful that I believe this thing could homogenize rocks !!!  Turns pithy and cruciferous vegetables, including Palm Hearts, into sawdust ... and when you strain the liquid off, the sawdust can be put into Pan Cakes, Bisquits, and Breads very easily ... Waste Not Want Not .......
 
VITAMIX !!!  An intelligent, Durable, Long-Term Investment for your Kitchen or Bar !!!

Rooftop gardens are viable in NYC rooftop apartments , especially the ones that have gone green with solar panels to have an entire building growing produce, like the Hmong would take a lot of renovation and innovation.
 
This could proably be done in the newerr apartment building. 
 
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This topic reminds me of the time I made a home visit to a little girl in the beginning of my career.  The girl was very cute and learning English quickly.  Her clothes were always mangled and  had an odd smell.  Her notebooks had weird marks on them.  I was afraid that she might have been living on the street or sleeping on the fire escape while her mom serviced clients.    
 
I went to the building that she lived in and  walked up to her 4th floor apartment.
 
There was a great deal of commotion after I rang the bell.  I waited for a few minutes before the little girl let me in.   Right there in the middle of the living room was a goat.
It had a large rope around its neck so the kids could walk it around the apartment like a dog.
 
I took a picture of the little girl and the goat.  When I showed the picture to my supervisor she said "Of course, if you bring out the camera they'll bring out the goat."   I'm still have not sure what she meant by that.
 

Stoney: Check the William Sonoma website.  They carry some of the brands you see those pretentious little cafes where all the staff are PhD candidates.  Those blenders have to take a lot of abuse and be reliable.  They may be a lttle pricey.   

Chicago  is  a  leader  in  rooftop  gardens  &  green  spaces.    The  energy  savings  (heat  &  ac) recapture  the  cost  in  as  little  as  3  years,  and  the  tenants  in  some  offices  &  apartment  buildings  have  a  little  bit  of  Lincoln  or  Grant  Park,  right  there.  On  the  newer  buildings,  it  is  my  understanding  that  they  build  them  with  the  expectation  that  the  roof  will  be  used  this  way,  reinforcing  the  supports,  and  providing  for  appropriate   drainage.
 
I'll  be  back  later,   gotta  run  a  few  errands.....   Good  to  see  Jalopkin  and  Stoney  cranking  out  the  postings  that  show  off  their  diverse  styles  as  only  they  can  do. 
 

Being born and raised in the South I am just "stuck" with the old planting in the ground and such. I enjoy the smell of the dirt as it is turned and weeding is a chore but it's a connection to Mother Earth that I crave. Anywho, have a great Sunday everyone.

STONEY:
 
You can check out the Vitamix on eBay.
 
They have quite a few for auction and buy it now.

Well, here are some topics I can speak from, having just finished the article in Scientific American about verticle agriculture. It is hydroponic,and,air roots. Y'all may be familiar with those little white hairs that grow on carrots too long in the refrigerator drawer = AIR ROOTS.  It seems the verticle structure,mostly glass,and oriented toward the best declination of sun,takes the least energy,and using a solar array at the top provides supplamental power to run the irrigation pumps that recirculate the water,and the condensation that we would wipe off our windows,in this case,is harvested and reused.The growing cycle is all year,and the crops are of the interdependant kind ; the off gassing of one is necessary for the others,and no actual"dirt" is necessary. Great article,and you may be able to source it online.  .  .  .Jalopkin,the electric car of today is way different than the 1905 model you describe ; the composite structure,and the (yes CAD)energy absorbing construction makes them possible,safe,and fumeless.  .  .Stoney,take that advice on the VitaMix, check it online,and source it at the least expensive outlet,the guarantee will be the same ,but the price will vary, expect to pay around 350...it'll make soup, or ice cream,(but don't use real rocks in the rocky road).  .  .and if you start your day with fresh juice,as I do, it will be used daily for a loooong time.

JALOPKIN- stop, you're killing me w/ your brilliance this rainy, Sunday morn... Your brain is in high gear sir! You are correct about the Vitamix- a friend of my parents had one & you could do everything in that thing. It's also been around forever- I remember it being advertised in all the alternative mags.
 
STONEY- I'm also a big believer in consulting Consumer Reports. You can join online for a ridiculously low price.
 
JALOPKIN- Your mention of Stuckey's brought back so many memories. When my grandparents would come to get me for my long summer visit- we always stopped at a Stuckey's. My grandfather would give me a $1.00 to spend & we always got a pecan log or two to eat on the drive. Are there still Stuckey's around?

My  job  accesses  me  to  information  I  otherwise  would  never  have  otherwise  acquired.  Hydroponically  grown  cannibus  sativa  {marijuana}  is  the  most  expensive  kind  to  produce,   but  it  is  done  inside,  with  artificial  light  being  generated  by  grow  lights.  The  equipment  needed  to  do  this  is  not  heavy,  so  the  location  need  not  have  reinforced  floor  upports.  The  quality  is  highest,   due  to  genetic  engineering,   so  the  price  is  accordingly  highest.
I  realize  that  this  is  not  the  perfect  analogy  to  the  urban  farming  described  in  our  article.  But  the  author  was  correct,  conventional  agriculture  is  perhaps  the  lowest  financial  return  for  any  land  use.    Office  buildings  are  evaluated  by  the  annual  rent  per  square  foot  that  can  be  generated.  Therefore  premium  commercial  &  residential  addresses  cannot  be  put  to  use  growing  veggies.   But  look  at  how  many  abandoned  warehouses  and  factories  are  available  in  urban  environments.   I  recently  drove  with  an  associate  to  Youngstown  to  visit  a  client  in  a  correctional  setting.   Their  economy  is  depressed,  jobs  shipped  overseas.   Dozens  of  appropriate  structures  sat  idle,  and  the  government  already  encourages  alternate  development  of  them  with  tax  incentives.   I  am  positive  that  some  of  the  structures  that  once  housed  factories  could  be  acquired  for  a  dollar,  assuming  the  developer  first  has  a  preapproved  plan  that  refurbishes  them  and  creates  local  jobs.  Those  jobs  in  turn  would  create  a  reinvigorated  tax  base,  thereby  allowing  government  to  stop  cutbacks  of  essential  services.
Every  time  I  see  what  still  is  a  devistated  New  Orleans  after  Katrina,   I  think  of  another  application  of  land  use.  I  doubt  that  anyone  is  going  to  seriously  rebuild  in  wnat  amounts  to  flood  plain  sectors  of  that  city.   But  there  is  no  reason  why  the  government  could  not  use  stimulus  money  to  hire  the  unemployed  to  clear  out  debris,  and  ready  the  land  for  urban  gardens.   This  would  potentially  be  a  showplace  for  potential  application  worldwide.   Sometimes  America's  solutions  are  so  obvious  that  we  look  right  past  them,  instead  assuming  that  technology  is  the  only  answer.

>>>>cannibAs<<<<<     {need  more  dark  roast}

I read the article and couldn't help but thinking of an already proven efficient, vertical agricultural mechanism - the hanging garden. Dirt on top, food growing underneath. Then there's trellisies, another vertical growing method. Both the hanging garden and the trellis are great space savers and can double the output of produce. Sometimes the simplest methods are the best. 

DANIEL- your post made me laugh because this past summer I was going to get one of those hanging tomato planters & it didn't happen. This next summer I WILL have one of those. The guy who invented that seems like a genius- such a simple, such a brilliant idea. It makes so much sense you go, "Why didn't I think of that?"

Bert: That plant may be the most expensive to produce but it has the highest highest re-sale value.  Hypothetically.

Daniel  Zev:   Your  concept  with  tomatoes  is  exactly  what  I  was  trying  to  describe.  there  is  no  reason  why  a  major  city  needs  to  bring  tomatoes  all   the  way  from  California  just  to  supply  the  needs  of  consumers.   The  savings  in  transportation  costs  alone  could  be  a  big  step  in  making  your  method  profitable,  not  to  mention  letting  the  tomatoes  ripen  on  the  vine,  thereby  enhancing  the  flavor.   Tomatoes  picked  green  and  allowed  to  ripen  in  transit  tend  to  tast  an  awful  lot  like  styrofoam.....jmo.

Bert~the high rise,verticle hydroponic farm, in southern Lats,would provide the food that we now ship in at great cost from placesas you point out.  THERE, we have solved the problems of the world! On to baldness cures!

and vertical spell check

BERT- I mentioned tomatoes- , but that's ok- ignore my contribution at your OWN peril...

Bwaaaaaaaaa, ha, ha, haaaaaaaaaaa....

 they had hanging ggardens in Babylon, but no tomatoes

 thr dirtless vertical garden concept is very easy to conceive,after learning what it takes to construct. And putting them in Louisiana makes better sense than flying fruit from Bolivia, tho the Bolivians might find it a problem...

A dirtless vertical garden would catch on in the Northeast too if you market it as part of the gentrification plan for a neighborhood.

BEBE:  I found the upside-down Tomato Bucket(looks like a cheesey Lampshade) fruit to be a lot more trouble that they were worth, Birds had an easier shot at them, and the Fruit was just, tasteless ....... Big disappointment, in both the Red and Yellow varieties, and somebody was always banging into it, while almost everyone had to walk over and mess with it, and each time, potting soil would drop out all over the patio ....... But, they will get a few conversations started .......
 
As for my mind being sharp, my first Post was done on my last Break before going back to work, about 1:30 this morning ...  Not so much sharp as it is being old enough to have seen a lotta things, and have survived a lotta mistakes ....... There are some absolutes that exist in this Universe ... When General Motors first dinked out the Cadillac, and Japanized it, I knew the world was going to hell ina a handbasket ... Now, Lincoln has become the Luxury Standard, because Ford was smart enough to realize that Americans want full sized Luxury Cars, regardless of what the Greenies and Tree-Huggers have to say ... Other Time Honored Institutions are disappearing too, and Stuckeys is one of them ...
 
Sharpness of wit and intellect can be stunted, and taken aback every now and again .... Like the 82 year old Gentleman sitting in the Bar at the Airport, with his Aviator Glasses and his Flight Jacket, and Scarf ... Looking very much like his name could be, Max Blue ... when an attractive young woman sat on the stool next to him and said hello, then asked, "Are you a Pilot?"   "I guess so, he said ... I have been flying BiPlanes for sixty years, giving flying lessons, thinking about flying and planes, all day every day ......."  "Thats neat, she said ... I'm a Lesbian ... I think about naked women all day every day, when I wake up from dreaming about them, in the shower, at work, at play ... all I ever think about is naked women ..."
 
A young man came up on his other side, smiling enthusiastically and asked, "Are you really a Pilot, at your age?"   The old man downed his drink and ordered another and said to him, "Well son, I thought for years that I was, but I have recently discovered that I am a Lesbian ..." 
 
So, one never knows, and one should never stop learning, but the Old Standards,  Institutions, and Traditions should be preservedn in perpetuity ... Maybe Stuckeys will find a New Generation, and Pecan Logs makes very good Bait .......

JALOPKIN- I am bereft that the upside down tomatoes were not tasty. But I still feel that I will be lured by the siren call of the upside down planter when spring comes...

I think the reason we do not use what we already have as far as land and buildings -- why we don't put them to reuse as say a vertical farm is because:  there's no money in it for the developers, investors, and bankers. and politicians who will fund new and massive and wildly expensive (albeit costly to the consumer) projects that would do the same thing.
 
It seems the more I hear questions about why not? which make perfectly good socio-economic sense, I find that if I follow the question to the end, I come up with the same answer, which is: money.
 
Not $$ in the sense of savings to the consumer, but $$ in the pockets of the powers that be.  Vast make-work tear-down Projects result in the most lovely ca-ching ringing sound in their pockets; putting to better use or reuse that which we already have: not much ca-ching.
 
So what will happen to farms is what will make the most resonating ca-ching ring in the already stuffed pockets of the few.  We, the many, will continue to eat plastic tomatoes flash-grown in the refrigerator truck as it makes it's costly way west.
 
 
Remember too:  We have so much lovely farm land in this country, I'm sitting in the middle of some of the best -- and the farmers are paid by the government to let much of their land go unfarmed.
 
While I understand the economic theory behind this silliness, I don't agree with it.  Why bother to go vertical in a state like Wisconsin?  Just let our farmers farm, and we will be able to feed ourselves and others as well.
 
To leave a field fallow deliberately to create false market prices, while people go hungry -- that ain't right.  Economists be damned, that isn't the smart way to use what we have.
 
Is it?

park4, you think to logically.  it's not politically correct to think that way.   

hey bebe:  how was The Reader?  I think I really want to watch it, but I need a review from a trustworthy reviewer -- like you.  <w>
 
Did you get a chance to see it?
 
 
As for me, I put my soul in a locked safe last night, because those movies I mentioned, I watched each one of them last evening--and my goodness, there's a big market for souls, it seems. All Dorian Gray said was "if I could stay as young as I am in that portrait, I would give anything, even my soul" -- and poof it was done.  He didn't have to sign anything, that ole debil he was somewhere listening, and once Dorian finished that fatal utterance, he was a goner.
 
I went to get my soul out of the safe this morning, and it was still there, safe sound and unchanged. Whew.  What a relief.   It's a pretty nice old soul and I wouldn't want anything to happen to it.

Park4,weather in Weeeesconsin prohibits growing summer crops on the ground- -you grow snow- -but the vertical high rise hydroponic system is not weather dependant- - it makes its own,as long as the sun shines...so tomatoes are fresh from the farm,down the block,as soon as you shovel out the car  :)

hey cuukoo!  dear lady, how be you? 
 
As for me thinking logically, that's the first time anyone accused me of it. 
 
Nonetheless, I've been arguing this since I first struggled through economics classes in college.
 
Clearly, I'm off in left field (or right field, I don't know anymore), but I see hundreds of acres across the road here, from my window, that haven't been farmed for 3 years because of subsidies, and then I read about children going hungry in this country.  Imagine what those acres could provide?
 
Those who reap the rewards of our not sowing give a tinker's dam about hungry children.  They care only that their many appetites are sated.
 
 

correction:  don't give a tinker's dam.

I know eli, I understand.  It's not just Wisconsin I'm talking about, it's any and all agricultural areas where land like what I see "rests" because the farmer makes more money that than he does to farm it.
 
And you know, sometimes I think some places like Wisconsin just aren't supposed to have tomatoes in the wintertime, when the earth is restoring itself.  That's the time of root vegetables. 
 
"As soon as you shovel out the car..." ain't that the truth, eli!  The Weather Guesser on the Weather Channel in Milwaukee says snow by the end of the week.
 
Are you planning on staying local for the rest of the holidays, or do you plan to take the yacht out on an adventure, despite the weather?
 
You daredevil you!
 
 

I cannot type today.
 
So: a blanket 'please forgive my typos, there are many, too many to continue to correct."
 
It's just one of those days.

park 4....great here!!...haven't sold my soul, either.  watched every one of those movies .....started with the invasion of the body snatchers....seemed to be a theme.. love, honor, hope....
 
 

Park4~having just returned from that 2680 mile jaunt, I am home to stay for a while...tho I could go up Nort in a minutes notice,I would rather go to the South Coast and eat feesh n srimp.. but back to my point, it is the costs of transport of our comestables that I am balancing against the costs of construct of the vertical systems,and,no threats of organic diruptions,like the salmonella outbreaks. Hydroponic and air grown  ; hot house,are safe,sane,and counting the carbon feets,way cheaper. I don't know if the Scientific American article is yet online, but if it is,it tells the whole story from the prospective of how and why.

If you care to,google scientific American,and use the search for vertical farming;several articles appear.

ROADYACHT:
 
Everyone interested can go from here.
 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/search/index.cfm?i=1&q=vertical+farming&u1=q

Bebe:   You  posted  while  my  post  was  still  under  construction,    interrupted  by  a  problematic  phone  call.      I  didn't  blow  off  the  fact  that  you  HAD  mentioned  tomatoes,  I  merely  didn't  know  it  existed....
Or,  as  Steve  Martin  would  say,   "Well,   EXCUUUUUUSE   ME!!!"   .....  lol

BERT- Really, it's fine. Now let me get my bunny boiling pot going...

PARK- I may see it tonight because I have a bad feeling that it's begging time on public tv.
 
CUUKOO- you are so right- she is way too logical- therefore it will never happen. Greed almost always wins...
 
I will let you know how it is. One of my good friends is a German woman who also teaches Italian & German film at the university here & she could not get enough of the book & raved about the movie. I weirdly could not get finished w/ the book.it has taken on bible like status in Germany.
 

Everyone on this site was kidnapped & I'm the only one left... it's so creepy.
 
Or maybe you all are having lives of thrill & daring. I am drying off myself & the dogs after a rainy walk at the lake.

 
Bebe,

Pay the ransom.

STONEY- I have instead decided to let you all stay kidnapped.
 
I will go thru all the posts & put my name on the best of everyone's & then when someone goes thru them they will say,"Who is this bebe, she is brilliant!"
 
I will be famous & rule the world!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Bwaaaaaaaaaaa, haaaaaaaa, ha,ha...

bebe:
 
what Stoney said.
 
and quickly, these kidnappers are an impatient bunch!  And what's worse, they read books!...so quick, no telling what types like this will do with us....
 
 
bwaaaaa,haaaa, ha ha.
!
 
 

PARK- I'm already working on putting my moniker on you best posts. There are alot- I'm going to be very busy...
 
I told them to treat you well. Calm down, there's no Materpiece Theatre on anyway...

That would be Masterpiece.

I wonder if terrace farming -- rice field draining into the rice field below it and so on down a steep slope -- would be considered vertical farming....

Is having one's rice field stocked with fish that eat fallen rice is considered a variety of vertical farming? (The cascade here is cabohydrates into protein....)

Coming off a two-day hike and having eaten 1,000 calories 'on the trail' in those two days, I'm not so sure the question is vertical or horizontal, but the caloric deficit (in my case about 5,000 calories).  Also fascinating about humans is our inefficient method of converting cropland into protein.  I'm referring to having animals eat grain and then killing the animals....  the inefficiency of conversion is mind-boggling, but not surprising considering the basic process remains unchanged over the millenia.... 

Park4 - you asked bebe for her opinion of The Reader and I can't help but interject.  It's well worth seeing.  I sometimes shy away from movies that involve other people's intense problems but this was pretty incredible.  The acting is superb.  You won't regret it.
 
For what it's worth....

I rolled up all the change in my mayonnaise jar & freed all of you because basically, I think you all are wonderful.
 
May you have a "Moonriver" kind of night...
 
 

SHANDONISTA- it's worth alot! So far it is incredible & you are correct- the acting is wonderful. Very much a european film in that the people look like real people (Ok- Kate Winslet is gorgeous beyond belief, but not a botoxed, worked out freak- like so many American actresses.)

  
Bebe,

Thanks. It was not in time to spare some of us from hideously degrading and perverted treatment at the hands of our captors and now, we can't find our way back there. 

Oh, Lord, what a long couple of days. Anybody have a brandy for me?

Michael, no brandy, but I do have a couple of drams of good scotch.

D-Zev: Sold!

I'm all for the vertical and the horizontal...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBuJB218UvU

PENN:  GREAT Link !!!  THANKS !!!   Helm has come a long way from, The Band ....... The Music of America ... Well Worth Another Listen .......

DOC NOLAN:  Terracing is done all over SouthEast Asia, very successfully as well as doubling the available growing space ... and it is a beautiful enhancement of the picture one sees, of an otherwise pretty disgusting place ... Many of the farmers work together to fit stones together, to build walls on the front faces of the Terraces and up five or six levels, to hold the soil in and keep the Monsoons from turning the Terraces into giant Mudslides  ....... Agriculturally, it   is    a smart move ... Effective and Efficient .......

and does it take the hanging gardens of babylon one level up?