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jraymond
03/07/11
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03/18/11
October 03, 2012
A friend, and amateur music theorist, wondered if we're getting to the point where all the good melodies have been used up.
Since we've been at this thing called music for a while now.
I said I'd look into it.
At last count there are seven basic notes, A, B, C, D, E, F and G but there are many octaves that these notes can be in, depending on the instrument. Counting flats and sharps, you have 12 in all to work with.
Since I was clearly out of my depth I sought some help.
Leonard Bernstein attempted to answer the question in “The Infinite Variety of Music.” Consulting with math geniuses, he figured the possible melodic combinations of those 12 notes is the following astronomical figure: one billion, three hundred and two million, sixty one thousand, three hundred and forty four without repeating any one note in any one pattern.
But enormous, as it seems, it’s still a finite number.
What I think he's saying is that, in human terms, it’s actually infinite in putting it into practice.
Especially when you factor in shape, tone pitches, rhythm, time, flow, the intervals between pitches, tension and release, continuity, coherence, cadence, shape and anything I left out.
I hope that makes sense.
Also, into the equation, you have to factor in that you can repeat notes and phrases illustrated in Vivaldi's "Spring Violin Concerto." Or the melody to "Norwegian Wood."
The Surrealist movement of the early 20th century, led by Arnold Schoenberg, was one of the first concerted attempts to search the atonal wilderness for new reserves of melody. But he met with only limited success.
Because, I guess, it was basically atonal.
What do you think? Is it getting more difficult to compose great music or anything original any more?
And do tell. What are the melodies that haunt you?
(If you find yourself humming them, it's a clue. Goosebumps are another.)
We’re all ears.
still thinking about today...
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erin
03/12/11
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04/09/11
Haunting? I will leave you with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcMFcrM1FgM
My Mom used to be a very talented piano player. If she heard it, she could play it. Alas, Mom could not read music, which led my Dad to quip; "She plays by ear..except sometimes her nose gets in te way".. I still say that,and can actually hear my Dad say it and laugh, somewhere deep in my memory/soul.....
•Ivan- not gonna make The Big Smoke in Vegas this year. Gotta a project on the Redneck Riviera wrapping up in early November•
√Since sound is vibration and music is nothing but good vibrations I live by the theme written on my favorite camp shirt "life is a song". There is one big tune that started an infinity ago and keeps on playing sounding differently at different times to different people but this big jukebox of a universe sounds like Leo Kottke to me at times and Cole Porter other times. Birds do it. Bees do it. Even educated fleas do it...ΔΔΔ
The premise that. "...all the good music is used up" is too depressing to contemplate. Next we willbe deciding that "...all the good movie scripts are used up," and the same for plot lines for novels. Remakes just never seem to cut the mustard. Can you even imagine someone attempting to remake "Casablanca" or "The Wizard of Oz" in movie format? "Colorization" is heresy enough.....
Bert- if history is any guide ; all the great books were made in Classic Comics......and Buggs Bunny did that for Classical Music......
Good day to all who will wander through these pages as I will soon be off to la-la land. Even the teenagers of today have said the best music seemed to have already been made - have you noticed how many of the hits today are rehash of old hits? Personally, I think it's just a dry spell I don't have formal music training either but did teach myself to read notes; I do it badly, but it's enough to get by. I do play by ear too, as with most unschooled musicians, and can transpose between different keys. I do know the seven basic notes mentioned form the diatonic scale. Start filling it with half steps to get the twelve notes also mentioned in the article and that is the chromatic scale. The rules that govern how many steps you can take in between the notes of a scale to form a coherent piece of music actually differs between different cultures, so in fact, that is why Chinese, Indian and tribal music sound so different from western music. Still, I'm sure that's music to their ears. But the notes are just the starting point surely, as rhythm, beat, metre, dynamics make blues, jazz, country, gospel etc...all sound so different.
Music, it seems is the only activity that utilises both your left brain and your right brain (probably listening to elevator music doesn't count though). I am also a great believer that Mozart does make a baby smart (I confess I used it when I was pregnant) - it's just the way he composes, I think it influences the unborn child to recognise patterns and make connections, a basis for mathematics. Heavy metal is so discordant I think it should be kept away.
And pop music is really simple...as this Australian comedy group shows, every single pop song works off 4 chords....if you have not seen the Axis of Awesome's "The Four Chord Song", please please please do! This video has had 24.5million hits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I ;
I think you mean "serialist", not "surrealist". Not that there aren't surreal qualities in "Verklärte Nacht" and the "Gurre-Lieder".
OMG - Spring - I LOVE THE AXIS OF AWESOME! They are SO funny! My husband and I love to watch their videos.
I love music. I don't know what I would do without it. There are A LOT of songs that give me goosebumps. I don't have any formal music instruction, but I used to play the piano (I miss my piano)... There is a lot of "modern" music that I question if it even IS music, but to each his own I guess.
Music is almost like a part of my soul. There are songs for my different moods and feelings, songs that are special for different things that happen in life... (I know this could be more eloquently stated, I apologize) One of my favorites is Jo Stafford's You Belong To Me...
Vivaldi, Peter on his fiddle playing anything (!), the hall of the mountain king from Peer Gynt, I used to wake my littles up with this, however they do say the irish have a basic tune repertoire of 84 tunes and the rest are variations, but SO compelling....
I have two guitars and a bazouki in the cab of my truck and play to my hearts (and some other hearts apparently) content.
Tommy your educated fleas doing it dates you pretty well you know
Just up North to drive a car back home and trying to check on old friends who are not here.
http://youtu.be/Bw3Yi8kmp98
I don't know about all the good melodies being used up, but
I wish to he## that they would use up the bad ones and be done with it. It's
easy to say that all the good art, literature and music has been created, then
something new comes along and bamm there you are. I am all ears for a new
arrangement or a new variation on a theme. When all else fails, throw in
a kettle drum. Good music is like a good
steak or a good bottle of wine. It's all good.
Mr. HouseGuest, Give the one who isn’t here our regards.
I visualize the creative process introduction and eventual expansion of the arts, such as music and painting styles to be built lime the pyramids. They form a wide, timeless base that support the ever tapering structure composed of additions, adaptions, and sometimes subtractions of what has preceeded each block.
Once the tip of that pyramid is reached, a new pyramid may need to be started. The question is probably 'when', especially if the existing pyramids are satisfying enough for so many past, the present, and who knows how many future generations.
They were built with many blocks, and in such a way as to withstand the test of time.
I like to think that there are grains of sand already, just waiting to become part of the first block of stone for a new pyramid. To be fresh and original however, it must not look backward, nor have a memory of what preceeded it. It's test of time will only exist in the future.
TheSepia train can go anywhere, and anytime.......except the future. I think that is as it should be.
Peace out
House Guest, give that Old Friend a big-ass bear hug from me.
I've always had the desire to be a creator, to forge new paths, make new music, paint new painting, etc. What I am is an appreciator of creators. Creating something from nothing has never been a strong suit and I envy those who seem to do it well and seemingly effortlessly.
Since we're talking atonal music. Has anyone heard Keith Urban's "one chord song"? It was a hidden track on one of his earlier albums. When I heard it I was really struck by how much he could do with one chord. It was then that I decided that by the time I turned 35 I would buy a guitar, take lessons, and learn to play that song well. I still haven't done any of that but I've got 1 year and 8 months, so don't count me out yet.
I don't even think House Guest is around anymore, but I certainly second that emotion. Would love to hear Bebe or Miss Blue or Jax or Park or Georgia or many others' point of view on this topic. Or any.
I long have known I cannot carry a tune in a bucket.
Then I came up with my bucket list of things I want to do before I kick the bucket.
Done some of them.
Doing some of them now.
Have plans to do many more of them.
So there’s been a song in my heart ever since.
Sometimes I think we've over-hyped "creativity" and made it seem like something only a very few are gifted with. Our over-critical parts keep us from appreciating the simple acts of creativity that we sound/hear/experience in our daily lives. Yes, it's wonderful to create something that lasts or can be appreciated by many, but that undersells the many, many things that happen 24/7 that are creative. When ChefDeb or Ivan or so many of us cook we are creating.....when we plate and serve it we are creative. Just getting dressed is an exercise in creativity if we don't have to wear a uniform--look in the closet and think out the possibilities.....Turning tears into smiles with children or adults is a form of creativity. I don't think the music is used up, but I do agree with Paolos in wishing that the "bad melodies" were used up!
People play by colors....I played the ivory keys at one year of age, my grandmother would make us practice with our fingers doing the scales on the kitchen table; My grandmother was a piano teacher;my mother played wonderfully; I play piano tricks gadget sounds... well... alittle bluesie...my Aunt played piano...excellant...she wrote a play on Tchaikovsky that hit Broadway in Buenos Aires, Argentina, she grew up with the piano player for Rogers'Neighborhood;she graduated from Harvard; she would say to John,"You brains are in your feet, and her brains are in her head," she would exclaim with laughter... in high school!"; my grandmother taught piano..encouraged them both at piano...and they had the same German piano teacher..$2.00/half hour.too...just a note..Exit....on my way to finnish errands in a blue plaid short with coleman sandles and a blue lace eyelet blouse.hot outside..off to shop!!!
Posted three wonderful Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Cosmopolitan Posts....Picture Posts on the community page...I caught the Pitt bus passing the Art moral at the right time....good Picture Snap!!!
Ho hummmmmmm - or even Om mane padme hum - the advantages of being a reluctant chorister of the Royal School of Church Music!!! I love plainsong, Gregorian chants, the wonderful Anthems and Psalms of Ecclesiastical music.
Another great afternoon at the hospital to be told that I do have lung cancer, which has not yet spread to other parts, there are treatment options. So put me on your prayers list, dear people.
May the Good Lord bless you dear Hazel.
Hazel..how brave of you to share that. I commiserate on many levels as you know. I expect the smokes we share on thesepiatrain truly will be virtual...of all the dire forecasts I have had, nothing has played out as described. I did have surgery and it was successful. Thank God you have National Health--this disease is diffciult enough to navigate without having to pinch pennies trying to care of it. So glad you moved near your son. Big hug and kiss! and of course, prayers.
Haze - I am so sorry. My love and prayers are with you. I am so glad that you are near your son and family.
Hazel (((xxxHUGSxxx))) you are in my thoughts and prayers. Booo to cancer! I hope you kick its butt.
Love you Haze. Love your heart. I have a CS Lewis one act show I have been working on and pretend it is both he and I saying this to you now as a prayerful thought, "Friendship arises... when two or more companions discover that they have in common some insight or interest or even taste and which, till that moment, each believed to be his own unique treasure or burden. The typical expression of opening Friendship would be something like, "What? You too? I thought I was the only one." The village has shared your treasure and now we will share your burden. One day I will ask the same from you. That's what friends do. Blessings friend.
Dear, Hazel, you go show that horrible cancer what a strong, beautiful lady you are while we all pray very, very hard. I will put you on our pray list at my Episcopal Church which means every Sunday at the two services the entire congregation says your name lifting you up to God. Then there's a Tuesday service, and also those who take the prayer list home for daily prayers.
Just had a friend tell me she is now cancer free so I know you can do it.
Hazel...... you get, be, and stay well soon. I insist! You are in my prayers along with those who are near and very dear to me.
Will it matter if there is only one song, only one dance
as long as you are the one singing and dancing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ebR_8UKAY
Houseguest---that song was a B side when I was a kid, It brought sweet memories, thank you for that. It was sang by the Duprees I think.I'm with PAOLOS, please give the one who is not here our regards. Middle Eastern music is round, Western music is linear, that is why ME music seems hypnotic because it repeats the same cords with various accompaniment.
MY DEAREST HAZEL, I AM PRAYING FOR YOU. MY X HUSBAND HAS LYMPH NODE CANCER BETWEEN HIS LUNGS, HE IS IN TREATMENT AND SO FAR THINGS ARE GOING WELL.
BE STRONG MY FRIEND, YOU WILL COME THROUGH HEALED AND WHOLE.
BLESSINGS ALWAYS!!!
Hazel Och dear woman!!! You have to know that we've all put your name on the prayer trees of our hearts! Hazel, your upbeat attitude, sense of humor and sense of the absurd, plus the great faith that your dad helped instill will stand you in good stead. In my heart and in my prayers......
Thanks so much, dear Villagers. Duvet time over here. It was said of the new-fangled christian church by 'outsiders' "See how these people love one another" - somewhere in the New Testament Acts of the Apostles - I feel the same can be said of this village. You are all such a blessing to me.
G'night dear Hazel. Consider yourself hugged from way over here in Wisconsin, where I'm holding you in my heart, as well. You are loved by many, and may that give you strength.
MBailey~Your eloquence brings to mind the word apotheosis! Is all good music in the past? How about Jeff Buckley's Halleluyah? Spring Fragrance~ You could probably fill a book with stuff I've never heard of, ufortunately including The Axis of Awesome , I'd judge them to be in the awesome ccategory!
Dear HAZEL:
you have been in my prayers and now more than ever I'll be praying for your recovery.
All the village is praying for you.
We love you.
Hazel~My thoughts, prayers, and love go out to you...Be tough, honey...be strong...
magicangel***I hope there is continued progress. Do take care of you in the process because we all know that you will be depended upon by all.
Hazel - My thoughts and prayers are with you too... Sorry so late in adding them.
TOMMY: Good On You Bubba !!! At least you've got a Project to be Thankful for, and I wish you the Best of Success with it !!! ... I was thinkin' about The Big Smoke this year, and am cogitatin' whether or not I can justify makin' the Trip ... Thought I might find you there somewhere around Kinky !!! But, just like the Dodgers, "Wait'll Next Year !!!!!!!"
For Haunting ... Sherezade .......
For Ominous Haunting ... Tocata and Fugue in D Minor .......
For Low Down Gut-Grabbin' Haunting ... Smoke On The Water .......
For Kick Ass & Take Names Haunting ... The Wall .......
For Voting Booth Haunting ... Won't Get Fooled Again .......
Just got here and am stunned with Hazel's news. Good grief, life is not fair!
Such a true to the earth lady should not have to deal with this kind of diagnosis. We know you left part of your heart in Wales with having to move, but please use all of your spirit and energy to fight this C that would try to do you in.
You have all this Village behind you, giving hugs and prayers for your complete recovery. Do know that. Great arms wrap around you, sing soft songs, and lift you up. This music is in that spirit.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zje20q1eRCY
Hazel ~ There are so many new treatments and medications out there. I've been on one thing or another for almost two and a half years now with an original dreadful diagnosis. (A stage 4 renal cancer that has since moved to my lungs; rare, only a small handful of people have had it in the last 25 years.) Get a good doctor that you trust, keep a good attitude knowing that you will beat this disease. Let your family and friends help you. The support, love, comfort, prayers and, yes, hope, offered by the people I call my angels, has been invaluable. The outpouring of love and support that you will receive is truly astonishing and very, very helpul. People who, themselves, have such terrible problems, take the time to offer you hope. Most of all, laugh, enjoy your life and the many wonderful things in it. Live!
HAZEL................love you, love you, love you. be well and am sending love rays from down south...................it's time to do some *ss kicking.................
Nawwwwww!! Hazel!!! I'm deeply distressed, especially since I suspect my colleague here is on the way to it too! As you know, my sister is also fighting some spots in her lungs and she won't talk about it. However, I think she may be on to something as she looks like she is coasting on prayers, a sense of gratitude and some alternative therapies (think she is very brave but she doesnt want a loss in the quality of life).
Hazel, you've always been in my daily prayers (along with all at the village) but your health will be specifically prayed for.
Andy....big hug for you too. You've got such a positive attitude. I must add you to my health list too
Thank you, Spring
Haze~ blame it on your politicians. We do that here. Andy~ are you blaming this President, or the last, for your "C"? . We do that, because Politicians last for a 'term'. So, we have the chance of recovery/remission, when a new one gets in office. And it works!!! (we balme the dog for smells and such) Get strong,get well,keep laughing
Hazel, I'm so sorry to hear of your test results. I have you in my thoughts ...lots of positive energy directed toward you. This reminds me, Spring Fragrance...how's your sister?
I hadn't refreshed since Peter Lake's 5:55 post... now I see you've mentioned your sister, SF. I hope she's doing well with whatever alternative treatment she's receiving. I agree with everyone, Hazel, you are loved by us all here in the village and I believe if anyone can beat this, you can. Andy, best to you too. Laughter is wonderful medicine.