John Quincy Adams left behind perhaps our most compelling presidential memoirs.
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July 11, 2012
Would you push a button for a million dollars if it killed a stranger?
A certain movie basically has the same premise, as do a number of books that raise these types of questions, which help stimulate conversation, since we presumably can't do it on our own.
So what is the moral thing to do?
For one thing, don’t read any of these books.
In fact, it is probably a moral imperative not to do so.
Moral imperative, also known as the categorical imperative, depending on how intellectual you want to sound, has been in the news lately:
“Providing Americans with affordable health insurance,” the President said, is “an economic imperative, but it's also a moral imperative.”
Spike Lee had another way of saying it in, “Do the Right Thing.”
Which leads us again to ask, in the best Socratic manner, how does one determine the right thing?
Hemingway said, “About morals, I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.”
Well, we can certainly shoot some holes in that.
Which leads us to our main culprit, Immanuel Kant, whose working habits we discussed just last week.
Much easier than discussing his work.
He’s the one who identified a new faculty in man for synthetic judgments, or a priori, which means we're supposed to know what to do in any situation.
Sort of takes the guesswork out of it.
Kant believed that moral requirements are categorical. They're definite.
Non-Kantians would say Kant's refusal to allow exceptions is incompatible with today. In war, one might argue, the sacrifice of the few for the many is necessary. Kant wouldn't hear of it.
Victor Grassian, author of “Moral Reasoning” believes psychology is essential in any moral philosophy, which leads to moral reasoning.
And he posed classic moral dilemmas, like this one:
You are standing at a railroad switch which starts at position A. There is a train barreling towards 20 victims on a track, but if you choose, you can throw the switch to B and direct the train down a track where there are five victims.
With no time to decide, would you choose to save 20 lives by sacrificing five?
But by doing so, you, and you alone, have aggressively caused the death of five individuals.
We know what Kant would do. What is the right thing to do?
Once we figure this one out, we can get around to healthcare.
still thinking about today...
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03/19/11
one of the funniest early Simpson episodes.....doh
Oh, and by the way, the "proper"answer (at least from MY point of view)throw the switch half-way, derail the train, and possibly kill no one....
I can never answer theses kinds of questions... I always go through all the scenarios in my mind, but can never actually come to a decision. I guess I have a hard time with these kinds of hypotheticals.
What are all those idiots doing out on the railway tracks? If you put yourself in harm's way for no good reason.......... Our blighted economy ensures that gangs of youths making a living by stealing copper wire from the railway system, endangering their own lives and the lives of railway passengers are a thriving industry.
Who knows really what the right thing to do is in any circumstance. I suppose it is Nature VS Nurture, how you were raised and what your environmental circumstances were that gave you your moral foundation. Karma I feel also has much to do with it. Do we plan our responses or do we go with our unconscious karmic fate? And..what about the karma of those who would die and those who would live?
When considering situation ethics, I keep thinking of Gary Larson's "Far Side" cartoons..... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.....seems the devil has the deck stacked in his favor
I would have to be under pressure to do whatever. So I can't say...or is that Kant?
Does that mean I'm agreeing or not???????
Paolos The Pokey Little Puppy is my youngest granddaughter's favorite.
I raised my son on "The Little Engine That Could"
"I think I can, I think I can!!!!...."
Train wreck(firey) in Columbus,OH...
Love the Frankenstein and migrate stories on Fox's Scitech!!!!!
Out of here!!! Blessings to all!
Oh, Peterman.
It's WAAAAAY too early in the morning for this nonsense.
Have a nice day, everyone.
You do what you have to do.
Under the circumstances at hand.
In the moment.
Next problem.
RY.......................you sly devil................
Magicangel ~ When in doubt ask IVAN or STONEY, if their responses are conflicting, then ask STONEY if he will reconsider. If he does, next time just ask IVAN. If he doesn't (I know this will sound patronizing) then ask a woman, someone level headed like Miss Blue, Miss Hazel or Chef Deb or Miss Bebe or Rusty or Carol or Julia or Jax or EADutton or EthelRose. You could also ask me, but then you would probably get advice like this. Who needs it? Do NOT ask TT or PeterLake, they will confuse the hell out of you and Bert will lead you astray and THEN offer his services as your defense lawyer. CarolB ~ As your granddaughter and Adam Sandler both know, The Pokey Little Puppy is a classic. Right between The Bible and The Lorax on my bookshelf. I keep my books in moralistic order.
To paraphrase the great flying one for all of you who want to be tigers in the Field of Morality, here's Mr. Know-It-All. "Hello, copycats.". This topic and the great sage made me think that our morality is often us kind of staus quoing. That old multi-wifing to the tune of hundreds + concubines, Solomon- would have electability probs even with all his wisdom. Anyhow the great Professor Bullwinkle J. Moose (aka Mr. KIA) was my close adviser on morality and ethics at Penn State...oops my dyslexia shining through...it was actually State Pen...where I roomed with Boris B. who often said "It's good to be bad! and as Mel wrote "It's good to be King". So it was good to chop off a few heads which was quicker than a Las Vegas Divorce and then there's the Inquisition. Everyone gets a morality adjustment on the rack.
Blow a Whistle..in this case, a very loud Train Whistle....Alert.....everyone...in this scenario....the two choices for saving lives.....are..two equally repulsive choices....Ditch the train.?...if it were only cargo...back to the Whistle....the alert response mechanism.....the old phrase....make a intelligent...choice....let bygones be bygones...you mey feel....helpless..but in the moment a choice...will be made.....an unpleasant decision....pray on your faith, in with might..and courage on your side...and moral code....it is more likely that 5 people will have a better chance at scattering off the tracks...human instinct...at will.....reminds me of Flight 93..."Lets'Roll"...they ditched the plane...
Hazel I'm with you, what are those idiots doing on the tracks in the first place? This does remind me of a joke I learned in Ireland...
Patrick is taking his train brakeman final test. He does very well and the instructor poses one last question where in the scenario is that a lineman accidently sent a train down the wrong tracks and directly into the path of a train coming in the opposite direction. The instructor asks Pat what he would do, Pat replies that he'd pull on the brake as hard as he could, the instructor asks what happens if the brake fails, Pat answers that he'd wave a big red emergency flag to try and warn the other train, the instructor then asks Pat what to do if that doesn't work, Pat says "Well I'd run home and grab my brother Liam". Confused the instructor asks him why, Pat answers "Liam's never seen a train wreck before".
'be good'.
ET
No, I would not push a button for a million dollars to kill anyone.
It is impossible to know what one would do in the situation of the train unless you are in the situation. Considering the question as posed leaves most to believe the least sacrifice is the best and there fore the choice is let five die for 20. I'm wondering if some, being right there as it is happening, wouldn't just freeze. I think I might. Thus the choice will be made for me.
Rusty I think with me it would depend on the 5 and 20. But it seems highly improbable so I won't lose any sleep over deciding a course of action.
I think all we can ever do is try to make the best decision possible with the knowledge and skills we have on hand without letting emotion cloud our judgment.
In other news it is 7/11, free slurpee day! Check with your local 7-11 store to see if they are participating, mine is.
Paolos, thanks for clearing that up for me, I'm the new kid on the block, preciate it:)
nachista~ That Irish joke is so ........ Irish!
Uh, did any of you guys pull the switch? http://www.ksl.com/?sid=21205068&nid=157&title=ohio-freight-train-derails-causing-fiery-blast&s_cid=queue-3
Anyone think to ask "Sully", Capt. 4ulenberg...
Oops
It comes down to this: would you rather have twenty lawsuits with your name on them as defendant, or five lawsuits? The answer is obvious: bye bye 20 people loitering on the RR tracks....
I don't know if engagement photos are following this trend elsewhere, but I swear almost every wedding invitation I receive has at least one photo of the couple holding hands and walking down the railroad tracks looking back at the photographer over their shoulders. Every time I see one I kind of hope to spot an on coming train in the background of the photo, but that's just me.
Now the CDC is hollering about an outbreak of whooping cough: how come whooping cough vaccines aren't required, as they used to be? The DPT shot covered three bad communicable diseases in one dose - diptheria, pertussis - and tetanus as a bonus, and mothers don't have their babies vaccinated with this?? Babies die from whooping cough - there's no downside to getting babies vaccinated, and it doesn't cause autism... ??? I don't get it. Don't care for your babies, don't care for your pets - what do people care about? I know the answer: themselves. Oh goodness sakes.
Oh FOR goodness sakes.
Lotlot - I agree, do the best you can under the circumstances. Wreck the train to avoid killing anyone, sounds good, too. Yes, get those kids vaccinated! Stay off the train tracks, everyone! No killing for money....for principles, maybe. Isn't that what war is about?
Hazel- We have the same thugs/teens/ thieves of copper over here! Almost daily the news shows air conditioners stolen, homes stripped, and construction sites with copper robbed. I say, copper thieves, get a job!
So thin is the veneer of civilization; so near are we, to lower life forms that preceded us; and so often are we yanked back to reality by seeing, say, American Marines urinating on their dead enemies, my effort to be rational becomes a dead-end of fury, embarrassment, shame....
I know what I like to THINK I would do; so do most. What I'd really do is anybody's guess. In a psychology class our professor cited this situation: You are placed in a room and given capability to electrocute, slowly, someone in an adjacent room -- it depends on how hard you push the button.
You have complete control. When you send current through the wires, you hear the victim scream.
Push harder, and he screams louder.
The discussion that followed was fascinating.
Is that not what politicians do every day? Don't they kill us figuratively or in reality by selling out to lobbyists?
Lawsuits, lobbyists, electrocution, Irishness.....fascinating responses to an almost unanswerable question. I am pretty sure I would take RY's wreck it in the middle solution, but I think you'd have to be there. Its pretty safe to say that we seem to be a High Road kind of group and we could be counted on to let our experience and our guts decide what lever to push.
Did anyone else ask themselves the questions like: are there people on the train, are there loved one (or disliked ones) on the tracks, and that sort of thing? Or is it just my mind that works that way?
All other things being equal, meaning the only knowledge you have is that you either kill 20 or 5; you will feel terrible either way so take action to save as many as you can.
You don't have time to ponder the consequences to yourself,or worry about how you will feel after. Either way, you will never be the same as you were.
As for the judgement of others, they were not there so there opinion just doesn't matter. They are just relieved they were not in your shoes at the time.
It is not killing less. It is saving more.
I would've toggled the switch as the train crossed it, thus causing it to derail and not hit anyone.
I would've toggled the switch as the train crossed it, thus causing it to derail and not hit anyone.
mbailey ~ A short time back the village topic was Edvard Munch's THE Scream. If you know the painting, that is how my mind works.
"Noodling for Piranha"...the shortest reality show ever made.
I, thankfully, cannot even begin to imagine a situation that would call upon me to make a decision like that.
I love what you wrote,Southsider. It's perfectly sensible and moral at the same time. And the part about how, either way, you'll never be the same - kill 1 or kill hundreds, anyone with a conscience would be changed, maybe tormented, forever after. .......How you think. You're awfully wise............... I'm a fan of yours, as you know. If you were a facebook page, I'd click "like." How's that for a compliment? ;)
I am not worthy North-sider..... But I will take it and run.
I would click 'like' and send an emmoticon too, if i knew how to on you page.
Now I have to r u n n o f t to the tall bridge over the raging river and decide if I should save a bag full of cats or a bag full of dogs that are being pushed off at the same time with no way to stop it from happening. And i can only save one bag.
You folks talk amongst yourselves, I'm getting verklempt..........
Truth, I would check the distances from train to group, pick the group most distant from point A and throw the switch to send the train in that direction. I would then mosey on down towards that group and politely ask them to clear the tracks, Would y'all just move along and make way for the train, please? If I was in Jersey, I'd most likely shout, Hey, morons, get outta there, can't you see the train? I think they would respond quicker.
Peter Lake: Save the dogs, and don't play on the railroad tracks.
PARK........................I just finished reading our local paper & there was a notice that all entering 7th graders had to show proof that they had had their TDAP ( tetanus, diptheria, & pertussis )vaccine..................your post made me go, Oh................
I can't get excited about the actual topic, so I ramble on OT........................picked up some Graeter's choco chip ice cream from Kroger today.....................mmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................
Capt Neptune ......... That's a bingo!!
I could not look Floyd in the eye if I came home with a bag of wet cats.
In these nail- biting situations, i always take a brief moment and think.....What would Dudley Do-Right do. He had a nack for this sorta thing......or maybe it was his horse named Horse,or perhaps Nell in a Dudley suite......but anyroads
Chocolate chip ice cream! Forget the bags of dogs and cats, I'm headin' for bebe's!
Well, to coin a phrase and repeat it, I can "herd cats" and my cats are conditioned to go down the stairs when I say ( and clap my hands), "let's go, girls, downstairs..." They go....!
Of course, they know that downstairs they will get wet food and new water,a nd some treats in their dry food....so is that cooperation or conditioning...? I think the latter.
Our drivers' license bureau has now decided to cull out the illegals by requiring ALL applicants for renewal and new to produce the following: original birth certificate ( I had to admire the irony that our own Pres. did not have to do this!!), your Social Security card, and 2 forms of documents that prove your residency, like a gas or water bill.....It is amazing that the lines to get a driver's license have now gone from a half hour wait to 3-4 hours wait!!! Find those important documents, Georgians!!!
I guess my trouble is that I always ask myself "What would Bubba Looey do?"
I can't imagine being in that kind of situation and yet, it's the stuff of Sophie's Choice. I've tried to consider what I would do and I think I would try my best to save the people at whom this train was headed; somehow, some way. I also think that if a save is not allowed for the purposes of this question, that no one can accurately say what they might do. It would purely knee-jerk based on history, character, training and nerve.
Oh no - you can do it Southsider, you can save both the cats and dogs, I have faith in you.
I can't imagine being in that kind of situation and yet, it's the stuff of Sophie's Choice. I've tried to consider what I would do and I think I would try my best to save the people at whom this train was headed; somehow, some way. I also think that if a save is not allowed for the purposes of this question, that no one can accurately say what they might do. It would purely knee-jerk based on history, character, training and nerve.
Oh what a quantum entanglement we weave, I was sitting at a bar petting Schrödinger's cat the other day and in walks a beautiful doll named Swet Sue who said she was tied up and thrown on the RR tracks with 4 other gals and then...and then...Along Came Jones..Slow-walkin' Jones Slow-talkin' Jones Along came long, lean, lanky Jones...At these moments heroes are born...or not...Kant ever tell...
I've never seen a BERT split by another comment.
How did that happen.
ANDY 8:21, PARK 8:23, ANDY 8:24.
Park,
Bubba Louie is a good choice. He is the only thing that kept Yogi Bear from becoming a rug in front of a cabin fireplace.
Park4 - Your 1:03 is timely as the whooping cough outbreak is one of many contagious diseases that are following the infusion of alien and illegal children who are entering our schools.....some districts do not enforce the "get your shots before you can enter school" rules, and others are lied to or have forged papers that say the kids are immunized and they aren't.
As long as it was educated, informed parents, we were all ok, but now that there is a large contingent of uneducated, uninformed parents, many safeguards have fallen away. This is only the beginning of the troubles the USA faces if we cannot get back to the traditons we once held sacrosanct. Vote carefully in November.
Georgia - Regarding one of those "you must choose" situations, my masters level educational administration class had the old "fallout shelter" exercise in which someone must be put out because there is not enough oxygen or food for all 6 of us who are in this shelter....and invariably they put out the pregnant teenager because she had no skills and was potentially 2 mouths to feed. So much for the milk of human kindness..... That half the nation now depends on the other half to provide for them is a lesson in some kind of "categorical imperative."
Why is there not a system for culling out the liars and cheats who claim benefits that they do not deserve? Why must the ones who have worked and saved all these years now have to provide sustenance for those who simply don't want to work? Or as one interviewed man on a welfare office line said,"Man, I deserve the free ride because my ancestors were brought to this country as slaves." Where has the education system failed to instill the right values in those who feel no remorse about sponging off others?? Moral imperative, indeed!!
Peter Lake ~
Your usual thoughtful, grown-up exposition of a poser.
It has some thing going for it that not all problems have: suddenness… very little time to agonize.
After that, it becomes arithmetic and a not very difficult story problem at that: do you want to feel bad or four times as bad?