A Dance of Life and Death

REALLY!!!  They sold the CUBS today....Now with new owners- -HEY--they may even win a game.  And like the last bullfight in Catalonia,it will be the end of an era

Bullfighting is one of humanities true, unbroken links to our ancient past.  We can find a direct line from the young, record-setting bullfighter who came on the scene just recently (I can't remember his name) and the ancient bull dancers of Crete. 
 
Stephen R. Lawhead, who incidentally is from my own small hometown, gave a fascinating description of bull-dancing in his Arthurian cycle.  In the first book, Merlin's mother is a bull-dancer, trained to flip and jump between gilded horns and dance upon the beast's shoulders to the cheers of the crowd. 
 
I've been a fan of Hemmingway since the first time I read "Old Man and the Sea", but it was when I read his description of the bulls being off-loaded from trailers, lured into a holding area by two steers, one of which is gored immediatly, that I realized just how brutal this sport can be.  I have hunted and killed animals for more than half my life, but they were all clean kills.  I have helped slaughter and butcher cattle for meat.  But that was clean.
 
Bullfighting is not clean.  And yet . . . there is something about bullfighting that feeds a part of the human soul that we do not fully remember or understand.  We have tamed our wilderness, and except for a few poor hikers here and there, we have little to fear from the animal world.  We no longer must fight for our place in the food chain.  We do not have to put ourselves in danger just to eat.  But some part of us needs to.
 
To revel in the kill of that which would kill us, but honor and respect the strength of the animal who is only trying to survive.  That has been pulled from the human condition.
 
Deep inside, in the corners of our psyche that scares us, we are still primitive savages, wanting to pit stone and wood against tooth, claw, and horn.  We have forgotten, and we do not understand, but that is a part of us.

Yes,primitive savages,especialy in the bleachers....beer,ivy,and....CUBS....and they just might WIN something,sometime....BEER.....

Greetings all: First, I sincerely apologize for being absent for such al long while. Had a ridiculous busy summer with youth race team sailing, surf trips, baseball and just living on the beach. Traveled (mostly by boat) up and down the east coast for sailing regattas, My 11 yr old is trying to earn points to qualify for the junior Olympics in sailing. Very hectic. Now school, HOMEWORK, fall baseball, soccer, boy scouts. This "bubble" in time in my life has become very intense in that "its all about the boys". That's OK if I can realize that this bubble will not last forever (unfortunately) and I just have to handle it. I feel as if I don't exist as a person except as a tutor and a bus driver and clock watcher. I don't remember who I used to be and wonder who I'll be when the bubble pops. It's very intense and there are times I think I will pop before the bubble is done.

I really wanted to respond about "The debate about Homework" but believe it or not, I was assisting with the boys homework (in between baseball practices). My 9yr old plays in two leagues, one being a travel league so we have baseball EVERY night. (JP, he is quite talented, left handed, pitcher/first base and is privately coached by Trott Nixon (ex Red Sox) and Fletcher Bates (ex Mets Pitcher). Just this Saturday he was at bat an got walked. When he reached first base he realized the catcher still had the ball so he continued to second where he beat the throw and continued to third then slid under the tag at home. Thus a home run on a walk. It was amazing. Anyway, found this little gem about public schools. It just last 1 min. but it is very funny. The file is safe and I will try and post it. Here goes...School.mp3

Oh yeh, Bull fighting is just plain stupid. Your friend, C. Neptune

I've been to a few bullfights over the years.... It strikes me that they are parables, in which the human political leaders are the 'toreadores' and the public/mob fill the role of the 'toros'.  In their shining but ultimately rhinestoned 'traje de luces' (suit of lights) the leaders glitter in the sun, fearful of the bull but confident in their power over it.  Sometimes they make a misjudgment and pay with their lives.  And the bull, not very bright, is like the mob, enfuriated by the political class, but ultimately controlled by it.  And with rare exceptions, the bull's blood is taken from him, his struggling to no avail.  The smoke and mirrors in a bullfight is the cape, which is used to distract and weaken the bull.  In politics words perform the same function.  It's a Greek tragedy.  And at four in the afternoon bullfights are repeated endlessly, just as among humans the cycle of political duplicity, occasional revolution in the mold of Spartacus, and ultimately victory over the mob repeats endlessly throughout human history.  The persons (and bulls) filling the roles change; the structure and unfolding of the events is for the most part choreographed.  Such is political life. Much like bullfights. 

At the risk of calling down the wrath of the gods (Mr. Peterman et al)... here's Federico Garcia Lorca's famous poem about a failed bullfighter, Ignacio Sánchez Mejías....

A las cinco de la tarde.

Eran las cinco en punto de la tarde.

Un niño trajo la blanca sábana
a las cinco de la tarde.

Una espuerta de cal ya prevenida
a las cinco de la tarde.

Lo demás era muerte y sólo muerte
a las cinco de la tarde.

El viento se llevó los algodones
a las cinco de la tarde.

Y el óxido sembró cristal y níquel
a las cinco de la tarde.

Ya luchan la paloma y el leopardo
a las cinco de la tarde.

Y un muslo con un asta desolada
a las cinco de la tarde.

Comenzaron los sones del bordón
a las cinco de la tarde.

Las campanas de arsénico y el humo
a las cinco de la tarde.

En las esquinas grupos de silencio
a las cinco de la tarde.

¡Y el toro, solo corazón arriba!
a las cinco de la tarde.

Cuando el sudor de nieve fue llegando
a las cinco de la tarde,

cuando la plaza se cubrió de yodo
a las cinco de la tarde,

la muerte puso huevos en la herida
a las cinco de la tarde.

A las cinco de la tarde.

A las cinco en punto de la tarde.

Un ataúd con ruedas es la cama
a las cinco de la tarde.

Huesos y flautas suenan en su oído
a las cinco de la tarde.

El toro ya mugía por su frente
a las cinco de la tarde.

El cuarto se irisaba de agonía
a las cinco de la tarde.

A lo lejos ya viene la gangrena
a las cinco de la tarde.

Trompa de lirio por las verdes ingles
a las cinco de la tarde.

Las heridas quemaban como soles
a las cinco de la tarde,

y el gentío rompía las ventanas
a las cinco de la tarde.

A las cinco de la tarde.


¡Ay qué terribles cinco de la tarde!
¡Eran las cinco en todos los relojes!
¡Eran las cinco en sombra de la tarde!
 

ok, that link did not work,  Ill try to get help from the boys tomorrow,  Its worth it, especially if you have kids in school.  Back soon.

Bullfighting doesn't appeal to me.  It seems like a strange sport.  I'm glad that it never caught on in the US. I don't  know why people would want to witness live bloodshed for entertainment.    

CAPTAIN NEPTUNE:  Enjoy these days while you can ... Covet them ... Far too soon they shall be past ... You shall miss these days and your Sons ... They might be just across town, or just next door, but you shall miss them ... and nothing else in the world can fill the void created by absent children ... Good On You, Sir ... that you DO with and for them as you do ....... I admire Greatly, those who do it Right .......  It doesn't matter that you cannot identify yourself for a time, what matters is, that THEY know who you are, and are Proud of it .......

JALOPKIN:    Last  night  I  saw  Captain Neptune's  post,    and  wanted  to  make  a  response  same  &  similar  to  yours.   I  declined  the opportunity  to  do  so,   since  I  didn't  want  the  gradual  erosion of  time  that  my  daughter  spends  with me  to  get  me  in  a  blue  funk,  especially  when  I  needed  a good  night's  sleep  {or  what  anymore  passes  for  one}  get  me
into  a  "blue  funk."     You  said  exactly  what  was  on  my  mind,  and  probably  with better  articulation.   Kids  grow  up,  they  start  to  test  their  wings  by  leaving  the  nest.   We  have  to  remember   that  it  would  be  selfish  to  try  to  put  them  in  a  metaphorical  Mason  jar  with  holes  punched  in  the  top,  the  way  we  used  to  catch  fireflies  as  children.   All  we  can  do  is  teach  them  properly,   hopefully  by  example,   and  pray  that  some  of  the  cautionary  remarks  "stick."   The  world  out  there  can  be  a  scary place.   But  I  know  that  you  &  me  have  not  "just"  been    fathers,   something  any  mammal  with  XY  chromosomes  and  a  little  testosterone can  do.   We  want  to  be  remembered  most  our  kids  {and  others}  because  we  were  a  DAD.   

Need  more  dark  roast,  and  less  emotion....forgive  my  inept  sentence  structure...

"in our attempts to homogenize everything, are we losing too much?"
 
yes!

Julia: "I don't know why people would want to witness live bloodshed for entertainment. "Well, there's ice hockey.... prize fighting....'Shock and Awe.... the nightly news...deer hunting... soccer brawls.... riots and revolutions..... movies like 'A Clockwork Orange' or 'A Texas Chain Saw Massacre' (not quite real life but with surround sound and hi-def pretty close) .... I guess I could go on and on.... AND I have to agee wih you: I don't know why people want to witness live bloodshed for entertainment, either.... but they do.  (It would be interesting to see how much money the state of Texas could raise if instead of conducting executions within the walls of Huntsville State Prison it were to conduct them in Houston's Reliant Center... I suspect the Texas Department of Criminal Justice would fill the 71,500 seats.....)

I've always wanted to see a Bull Fight ~ It's seems such an unique experience as introduction to a culture & rythum that many people fail to appreciate. 
Papa Hemmingway enjoyed the sport along with Ava Gardner.  Whenyou think about it both Pappa Hemmingway &  Ave Gardner appreciated the sport enough to make it a bitmore known in the states. Whether it be a writing about it in a best selling novel or that attending one was a photo op.
 
The answer to Mr. Petermans question is a resounding YES in my humble opinion, in the fact that in our attempts to homogenize everything we are losing the cultures, history, & art  all in all we really are losing the identities.....  

Off Topic ~ I have an interview at Barnes & Nobles today.. am hoping that they decide to hire me at least through the Christmas rush...   :-)

Good luck RINGS90.
 
Hope you get the job.

(It would be interesting to see how much money the state of Texas could raise if instead of conducting executions within the walls of Huntsville State Prison it were to conduct them in Houston's Reliant Center... I suspect the Texas Department of Criminal Justice would fill the 71,500 seats.....)
 
true....precedeed by a reenactment of the crime said convicted criminal executed.  i'm sure anyone sitting on death row has been afforded every legal option prior to being seated in a death row seat.....more options than the "victim" had.....
 
they're usually there for a reason..................................................
 
in sporting events, you don't have to be there..for any other reason than...you just want to be..

Yes, we lose something when we homogenize... but isn't it possible to replace it with something else?

I read the Hemingway book on the bullfights (it was kinda cool to recognize some names in JP's piece) this past summer. I finished it with full admiration for those that have been great... and the hope that there will be no more.

The shear number of animals that die for each fight is sickening. They don't die bravely or honorably. They just die painfully and gorily. I'm not a PETA person, but there is a limit to my tolerance for animal cruelty.

The human race needs a jump in evolution. The "bread and circus" mentality that keeps hockey players throwing punches on the ice or lines at the latest "Saw" movie needs to be left behind. Our future is not in destruction of each other. Or watching the destruction of each other. It is in the desire to better another person's life.

So that's my rant for the day.

Now if the bulls were canivores,it might make the"battle" a little more interesting; the winner eats the loser..

Cuukoo1:   I  respectfully  disagree  with  you  that  everyone  on  death  row  has  been  afforded  all  of  the  protections  to  which  he  or  she  was  entitled.   That's  a  long  long  story,  however,  and  my  day  job  is  a  handful  this  week.   So  we  will  defer  our  discussion  until  another  day,  OK?   As  to  bullfighting,  I  think  the  gore of  a  bullfight  desensitizes  people  to  violence,  thereby  empowering  them  to  tolerate  violence  against  other  people.   Bread  &  circuses  may  have  been  the  custom  in  ancient  Rome,  but  look  at  what  a  moral  cesspool Rome  became  before  and  because  their  empire  crumbled.
 
Rings90:   I  will  give  you  positive  karma  regarding  the  pending  job  application.   I  love  bookstores,  especially  if  they  have  a  nook  for book  signings  and  scholarly  presentations.   But  they  still  need  dark  roast,  yup....

Kristina says  ~ but isn't it possible to replace it with something else?  I say no ~ The loss of Culture is the loss of an identity... What were the 10 lost tribes of Israrel's Art & Culture replaced with? or for a more modern era the Flemmish idenity?  Bull fighting is a cultural art form & it scares me to think of in today's day & age the replacement of such a dance & skill would be.
 

Thanks Korthal :)

rings90~ tell them I said to give you the job. Sometimes that helps.

rings90 - Good luck on the job front. 
 
 
I get to use your staff discount, right?

Bert an my old friend Jalopkin: Yes and thanks for the ear.  Yes I was in a serious "blue FUNK" last week but my head seems to be on a little tighter currently. 
Anyway, check this out: 
 devinbest.posterous.com/actual-message-on-school-answering-machine-in -  

S***T!!!  I'll fiqure it out later

I give up.     Google "School.Mp3 answering machine"   Then listen to "actual message from Australia....Devin's"    Sorry, but I can't seem to copy the link.

I never could understand bull fights either.  Yes, I do understand some people need to "enjoy" violence.  But, well I am a wimp and can't watch scary movies either.  One of my all time favorite books as a child was Ferdinand the Bull.    Maybe Rings90 can get it for us in her new job.
 
As for kids.  Oh, do you miss them when they leave.  Each time the kid calls or answers his phone it feels like a gift from heaven.  If he is actually talkative it's a jack pot!  Saturday my son and my 91 year old mother went out to celebrate my 60th (gulp) and the kid talked through the whole evening about what was going on in his life.  Best present ever.  Very hard on a jewish mother's heart but, I am so glad that he is so independent and living his own life. 
 
Would you just please tell him to call a little more often please?  Here is his number...................

I don't think much about, or really of, bullfighting but in reading the SLATE review of a new video release (Charles Kuralt, On the Road reviewed by Seth Stevenson) this popped out:
 
"Do we not all have dreams of glory?" intones Kuralt, opening a story about a Texas barber who moonlights as a bullfighter in a Mexican border town. "Breathes there a man who in the moments before sleep has not broken through the Dolphins line for a touchdown, or sunk the long putt on the 18th at Augusta, or fought George Foreman, or sailed the Atlantic? Hector Barragon, El Paso hairdresser, used to dream of fighting bulls."
 
Perhaps this is why the discussion today seems divided along gender lines, excusing Ms. Gabor of course.
  
 The review also speaks to the question of "our attempts to homogenize everything" with this delightful note:
 
"There is something distinctly pre-Internet about the folks who appear in Kuralt's reports. They harbor no ambition to become famous. They're odd people, doing oddly beautiful things, tucked away in odd corners of the country. "
 
 

Just34me:   Charles  Kuralt   was quite  the  world  traveler  &  storyteller,  and  he  did  so in  ways  that  ordinary  people  as  well  as  the  folks  at  the  top  of  the  pecking  order  could  relate  to.  One  bizarre  aside  about  the  man.....eventually  (after  something  like  30  years  elapsed)  it  became  verified  that  he  had  2  women  on opposite  ends  of   the  country,  2  families,  2  households.......

A technical detail about bullfighting.... the coup de'grace is quite fast and (relatively) painfree.   As the Wikipedia states:  ""The faena ends with a final series of passes in which the matador with a muleta attempts to maneuver the bull into a position to stab it between the shoulder blades and through the aorta or heart. The act of thrusting the sword is called an estocada".  A clean kill is a very fast death for the bull... and his suffering up to that point is much less than many deaths. (Interesting that we make a big deal over a few bulls and none whatsoever over commercial American slaughter-houses.  If you know a Hispanic neighbor who has ever worked in a slaughterhouse, you might ask him about his job -- and presumably why he quit....  You might be shocked.)

DAMN BERT !!! You had me going there for a minute or so ... I really appreciated your response to my comment, which was actually a kudo for The Captain, as I really do admire those who do it Right, and you included, my believing your own words and gauging your attitude toward your children, by those words ....... 
 
But then, I read your Response to cuukoo ....... God Bless your little Doo-Gooder Heart ...  You must realize that those of us with the Good Sense and the Testicular Fortitude to enact and exercize Capital Punishment ... absolutely MUST also exercise every tenet of Constitutional Guarantee, in the Prosecution/Defense of any individual, before executing him ... There can be no other way that Truth and Fairness can be served, with Justice, unless every stone is turned over ... We have to ask, what would I want the State to do if it were my neck in the noose ... and then act accordingly ....... Only then, can Scriptural Prescriptions be justified and for the States to be in compliance with the Word of God ... And if my making such a referrence Offends, I am sorry, but get over it ... We all have to face Him one day, whether we believe in Him or not ...  Besides the Scriptural considerations, we must look closely at another bitter Reality ... which is, that the whole  world is Law Suit happy ... We have become a Litigious nation, and Wrongful Death suits are among the Biggest causes ... NO STATE ....... wants to even think about being involved in such a Suit ... because they would be Paying Out forever if they lose, and in this day and age of Guilty White Liberals, Tree Hugging Doo-Gooders, and GreenPeace Geeks who still wear Earth Shoes, and other deluded buffoons, they will surely lose .......
 
As Ron White says, "We got the Death Penalty in Texas ... and we use it ... If you come to Texas and Murder somebody, we're gonna kill you back ..."  But not till after all possible Due Process has been exhausted .......  Now, all we have to do is get the State to start hanging Child Molestors and Rapists, like they ought to, and we'll be on a better road to Justice ... Child Molestors and Rapists destroy lives just as horrifically as a Murderer does, only the victims (most of them) live with that horror and destruction for the rest of their lives because despite what all the Psychobabble proponents say, such trauma is NOT something that any victim can ever get over ...  And if we sell Tickets to the executions, we not only increase State Revenues, but Bullfighting would cease to be, and all the Doris Day bunch oughtta be happy .......

cuukoo1: "I'm sure anyone sitting on death row has been afforded every legal option prior to being seated in a death row seat.....more options than the "victim" had..... they're usually there for a reason."  I live in Harris County, Texas (110 executions ordered here; the entire state of Ohio only came in with 32!) Here's the full lineup: http://people.smu.edu/rhalperi/texascounty.html ; .  If you think everyone on death row 'was afforded every legal protection', you aren't from Texas!  Down here actual guilt or innocence isn't the main point: closure is!  If you think innocent people shouldn't be executed (that is if you're a 'liberal'), you might want to click through and learn about The Innocence Project: http://www.innocenceproject.org .  And our governor, Rick 'Big Hair' Perry has made the big time news by packing the executions review commission to cover up the possible executions of innocent folks...  Here's a 9 minute, 54 second CNN clip that shows how 'justice' works in practice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyc2PzM593g

Sorry to get a bit 'hot' but when folks care more about bulls than about humans it seems somehow 'wrong'.  Maybe I'm 'wooly headed'....

CAPT. NEPTUNE:
 
Just for you. LOL.
 
And yes this is a funny one.
 
http://peaceofmind.posterous.com/actual-message-on-school-answering-machine-in-1.

"Texas Capital Offenses:

The following crimes are Capital Murder in Texas: 

murder of a public safety officer or firefighter;
murder during the commission of kidnapping, burglary, robbery, aggravated sexual assault, arson, or obstruction or retaliation;
murder for remuneration;
murder during prison escape;
murder of a correctional employee;
murder by a state prison inmate who is serving a life sentence for any of five offenses (murder, capital murder, aggravated kidnapping, aggravated sexual assault, or aggravated robbery);
multiple murders;
murder of an individual under six years of age.
United States Capital Punishment:

As of December 31,1999, the death penalty was authorized by 38 states and the Federal Government.

Texas leads nation in the number of executions since death penalty was reinstated in 1976.

Texas, California, and Florida have the largest death row populations.

3,254 offenders were under sentence of death in the United States as of December 31, 2005.

There are five methods of execution in the United States: lethal injection, electrocution, lethal gas, hanging, and firing squad.

Jurisdictions without death penalty statutes: Alaska, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin.

 For more on Capital Punishment in the United States:
Bureau of Justice Statistics-Capital Punishment

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)
Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)
Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)
The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.

Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

10.26 years"

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm

then look...

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/offendersondrow.htm

hook 'em horns

Thanks Bert.  I read that too.  It made me wonder if we can really be homogenized?  Or we can just look alike on T.V.?
 

I never go to sleep, my dears, I just go round to see... My little children of the East, who rise and watch for me.  Hey y'all, Uncle Willie here, stopping in, but not long enough to get homogenized.  If you don't believe in homogenization, try to identify any television newscaster with your eyes closed.  And here is the odd one: try finding a new car that isn't black or white or silver, or some intermediate shade on that spectrum.  I'm not saying we need to live in a pink car nation, but ... Robert Ruark liked to write about bullfighting, too.  They called him the Poor Man's Hemingway, but he was a great one in his own right.

On one hand, we have a mighty bull that is probably totally content to be nothing more, nor anything less than simply being what it he, a bull. For him, yesterday is just gone and tomorrow has no meaning.

When the bull is released into the arena, he has nothing to gain because if he wins today, he will still be nothing but a bull tomorrow. He has everything to lose but just doesn't know it...... until its too late.

On the other hand we have the Matador. A man who is compelled to be something greater than just an ordinary man; who despite the understanding that he puts himself in danger, not only chooses to do so, but dedicates his life to doing this. The Matador's yesterday existed to prepare him to achieve a feeling of immortality and greatness tomorrow.

When the Matador enters the ring, he knows he has greatness to gain. He becomes a "hero" to his people. He is also aware that he has everything to lose but chooses to be there anyway.

Now with that said, I would have to have a scarlet "H" (for Hypocrite) branded on my forehead to say that the tradition of the bull ring should be abolished.

Why, just a glance at the bone pile left on my plate from the rack of ribs I had at Portillo's last week would be enough to find me guilty. And if that isn't enough, I grew up sitting on my Father's knee watching the Friday Night Fights on television and I still watch boxing to this day. I could say in my defense that at least both of the pugilists were keenly aware of the potential consequences and chose to be in the ring but I think that might be splitting hairs.

To answer the direct question posed by our host ..."In our attempts to homogenize everything, are we losing too much?, I say yes, with the key word being "everything". Should a culture choicefully reexamine some of its traditions and rituals in the light of a new era? Of course, but it should also always remember them ‘cos it's how they got to where they are now.

I just think the world has bigger fish to fry than this particular issue. Issues that involve hatred, greed and war that could have a much bigger and more positive impact on mankind than this one.

Now as far as the "Running of the Bulls"..... I think it's their attempt to give the bulls a taste of revenge against a weaker minded opponent.

There I go waffling again....... Peace out

Doc  Nolan:   One  of  our  lawyers  supervises  Cincinnati's  branch  of  the  Innocence  Project.   The  leg  work  and  research  is  done  by  volunteer  University  of Cincinnati  Law  Students.   Before  our  lawyer  assumed  the  non-paying  position,  he  was  a  public  defender  in  Cook  County,  Illinois  {translate:  Chicago}.   I  am  from  Chicago  too,  I  root  for  the  Cubs  {North  side  boy},  he  is  a  White  Socks  fan  {South  sider}.  Some  of  his  work  as  a  non-salaried  Innocence  Project  law  student  and  then  public  defender  resulted  in  between  11  and  13  persons  being  released  from  death  row,  new  DNA  technology proved  that  the  trace  evidence  of  the  perpetrator  could  not   have  come  from  the  convicted  inmate.  
The  issue  of  competent  counsel  is  key  in  my  own mind.  Texas  has  some  counties that  pay  the  princely sum  of  $1,000  to  represent  a  capital-charged inmate.  So  basically  the  judge  has  the  bartender  pour  some  coffee  into  _____  to  sober  him  up,  and  the  client  has  a  lawyer.....on  first  impression.   Capital  litigation  involves  preparing  for  two  trials  at  once,  one  in  the  merits  portion  and  one  in  the  mitigation  (penalty)  phase.   "Experts"  in  Texas  are  those  who  are  also  willing  to  work  for  peanuts.  Hard  to  find  a  forensic  pathologist  to  independently  evaluate  the  case,  or  a  mitigation  specialist  (investigator),  or  a  psychiatrist.   Unless  of  course  they  also  are  sitting  with  the  pretextual  "lawyer"  at  the  end  of  the  same  tavern,  and  are  so  derelict  that  no  paying  client  would  ever  hire  them. 
Right  now  I  have  a  guy  on  death  row  whose  intelligence  quotient  both  sides  agree  is  57.   When  I  tried  the  case  in  '93  the  judge  granted  my  motion  for  a  forensic  psychologist,  but  approved  a  budget  of  $1,000.00.    Nevertheless  I  used  up  every  favor  I  could  muster,  and  found  a  professor  at  Ohio  State  University.  This  guy  will  get  off  death  row  fairly  soon,  and  resentenced  to  life  without  parole.  "All"  I  had  to  do  was  help  other  lawyers  get  MR-DD  folks  with  iq's  under  70  to  be  considered  sufficiently  impaired  in  their  ability  to  make  good  decisions  to  be  presumptively  ineligible  for  the  proposed  "vengence  verdict."    We  don't  buy shoes  with  a one  size  fits  all  philosophy,  yet  many  want  sentences  passed  out  this  way.
 
Ivan,  I  am  not  the  bleeding  heart  liberal  that  you  implied  I  am.  My  uncle  died  14  months  ago,  Detective  Sergeant  Ness,  Chicago  Police.   He  thought  I  was  nuts  for  passing  up  the  police  academy,  since  the  fix  would  have  been in.  Took me  decades  to  convince  him  that  we  were  both  on  the  same  side,  the  side  of  objective  fact-finding  and  fair punishment.  I  worked  4.5  years  for  the  government,  the  acronym of  the  agency  is  not  relevant,  but  suffice  it  to  say  I  investigated  crimes  and  tracked  down  bad  people.....very  bad  people.   So  I  understand  the  need  for  public  safety,  I  just  don't  want  "law  &  order"  to  be  a  mantra  that  trumps  "due  process"  and  fundamental  fairness.  We  can  judge  the  quality  of  any  society  by  the  way  that  the  society  takes  care  of  it's  indigents,  medically  and  legally.  Rich  people  will  always  be  well  cared  for,  probably  middle  class  too  {in  South  America,  from  personal  experience  I  can  tell  you  that  no  aignificant  middle  class  exists}.  A  country  that  actually  means  what  it  says  and  says  what  it  means  in  it's  constitution  and  amendments  and  statutes  tries as best  it  can  to  give  everybody  a  fairly  even  playing  field.   There!  That's  my  story,  and  I'm  sticking  to it.

Ahoy Capt Neptune...... great to hear from you!  No need to apologize for being dedicated to the most important job of all.  Drop back in when you can. Be well

...OK, I remember having the death penalty conversation last night after happy hour and my half of the bottle of red wine with dinner, and being told "I agree with you! Our society doesn't value life...don't yell at me..."
 
So I will just say, I've never understood the logic: Killing is bad, and in order to teach that to you, we are going to kill you.

BERT:  Being a Lawyer, you have Mastered the Art of Sophistry ... You should know that I have not, "Implied" a thing ... I simply took aim at, and punctuated my response according to your own words, which fairly drip Bleeding-Heart Liberalism ... I too worked for a Law Enforcement Agency of the Fourth Reich, and twenty-three years for a County, the last eleven of which I was Chief Detective ... I even wasted two years in Law School before I realized that I had spent most of my life putting Turds INTO jail, and I couldn't see myself spending the rest of my time getting them out ... So I went in a completely different direction ... Never forgetting the real side of Law Enforcement, and how damned aggravating it was to sitting at my desk writing an Indicent Report, and the Turd I just checked in walking past my window with an Ambulance Chaser, on the way to a Bar to have Supper at Happy Hour ....... Besides all that, and despite my respectable GPA, I also realized that I would be indoors every day for the rest of my life, and worse yet, I would have to wear a Neck Tie ... THAT was when I changed Disciplines ... I have a Son working on his JD, and I tried to dissuade him, but he wants to go into Politics ... and the only other thing he ever expressed an interest in when he was a kid, was becoming a Bullfighter, which I guess is about the same thing ... The only august member of the Law Enforcement in my family, was an Uncle in South Texas who was Chief Deputy in the County for thirty-eight years ... The only Ness I have ever known is a rapscallion Hot Rodder/Biker name , Arlen Ness, and I AM PROUD of that ... I was talking one day to Richard Daley(the Old Man ) about the beating the Chicago Cops took in '68 ... and I remember saying to him that, at least now, the Cubs won't be alone .......  Voir Dire, is STILL a challenge today ... and shall remain so as long as people REALLY don't want to hear the Truth, and the rest of us continue to Sugar-Coat the facts, and call these Turds, "Mis-Guided and Mis- Understood" along with the Dr. Spock/Dr. Phil bunch, hoping that they can be, "RE-Habilitated"  by fogging them thru Advanced Dale Carnagie Courses and puking them back out onto the street ....... The whole concept of Rehabilitation presupposes Habilitation, and if a Turd is so lacking in Habilitation in the first place that he commits a Crime, how in hell do we possibly hope to REhabilitate him ???
 
Inquiring Minds Want To Know .......

Not much for bullfights, but I've always wanted to run with the bulls.

And Bert ....... I'll STILL save you a Seat !!!

not much for bullfights either, but i've often pondered the bullfighter.......oh my...
 
if you can't follow robert's rules of order, how would you ever be able to dance...it takes two to tango....
 

DAMSELFLY:  You're in the Right Place .......

Aren't lawyers a self-regulatory group?  Meaning:  it's the Bar Association that will yank your license, if you're crooked or inept, unqualified or incompetent to practice. 
 
As a self regulating group, I would think you'd make darn sure, and fast, that your rosters have no incompetents on them -- law enforcement can't yank your license, the only people who can is yourselves.
 
So...why do I hear so much about incompetent counsel from attornies?  Weed the incompetents out, leaving only qualified counsel -- and then stop this nonsense of appeals based on incompetency of the attorney, and just get on with crime and punishment.
 
I do have to wonder if being self-regulatory is the best method, since there appear to be so many incompetents practising law.  How many time outs do attornies get before they get the boot? 
 
Why does the bar association allow so many incompetents to practise.  Or perhaps the bar exam should be made more difficult, so the incompetents can't get in.  Higher standards all the way around, raise the bar to be admitted to it.... 
 
This is an awful waste of time and money on the part of the state and taxpayers...and I can't understand why all these dopes are allowed to stand before the bar.  Give them the axe, just like in the other professions that aren't regulated internally, you screw up in a big way, and it won't be a real long time before you're out on the street pounding the pavement.
 
How come incompetent lawyers aren't out on that same street with the other unemployed white collars?
 
 

I tried my hand at bull fighting.


OK let me tell you the story. I was out in Wyoming on a ranch with my family. Fourteen at the time, anything soft and tender coming close to testing my manhood would cause a surge in blood away from the brain. She was a year older than me, and at that age about ten years more mature, and curious. Not sure if it was the animals or the lonesomeness, but she sure got the best of me. She taught me to smoke ...Camel straights...and a few other things. One day in a coral normally empty stood a bull. The kind you see in the bullfighting pictures. On one side of the fence it looked like the size of any other cows we had tipped. After entering the coral with the bull on a female dare, I learned quickly that bulls are mean and much bigger than cows. He made a move towards me with a pissed off snort. I am not sure he did anything else or not because in those immediate five seconds following I never knew 25 yards could be so far, nor did I remember that fence being so low. I cleared the rail but hit a snag on the post. That night in the barn I was not up to testing my new found manhood, nor in any mood to talk with he about it about it. I think embarrassment is a great way to humble a lad. To this day I fear snakes still the most. But bulls run a close second.

"He was just so full of bullfighting, bullslinging, and bulls**t." ~ Zelda Fitzgerald about Ernest Heminway [sic].
 
 

Michael, Your words: "this Deep inside, in the corners of our psyche that scares us, we are still primitive savages, wanting to pit stone and wood against tooth, claw, and horn. We have forgotten, and we do not understand, but that is a part of us.... "inspired yet another story.
By this time in my life I'm 19 years old and in hiking the switch back trails in an ascent of the Grand Teton. Its day one and we are still below the timberline and we take our first break. Remember we are all hippies of the early 70's so one of our team lights one up. While sitting there a grouse fly's across the mountain meadow and about 50 feet from where we are sitting. One of our party throws a stone at this pheasant sized bird. Did that draw criticism? Heck no!!!! next thing you know all seven of us are raining a hail storm of stones at that bird...and some how missing. We were high "on mountain air" so to speak and the excitement of the kill got the best of us. It felt like Lord of the Flies as we went savage all the way. All winded and out of stones, the grouse finally decided to fly up to a low branch in a tree near by. Bill says "alls it takes is one sharp stone". Great idea, why didn't I think of that. In a carless motion he wings it at the bird and hits it. It falls from the tree and we are all on it again in the heat of the kill. We totally lost it. Composure finally setting in we realize we were over the edge and slowly came to our senses. We had done something wrong? We killed for no other reason than to kill. We did it without thinking. The decision: to eat it or burry it. We buried it. That was 35 years ago. The idea that we, me, anyone is capable of losing and going savage it is scary. And I remember. In the grand scheme of things it was really pretty light weight.

Sorry today must be story time for me

I do read a lot, I collect books.  And yeah not having Hemingway in a collection in America would be un American.  I read one book of his, I think it was To Whom the Bell Tolls, and have yet to find the inspiration to read another.  There was one part near the end where the main character a defector from the Itialian army and his new wife row their boat across a lake to safety in France.  Being a WWI book I could only think the lake is Lake Geneva.   And that reminds me of another story..short version my wife and I sailed that lake from France to Switzerland and back...a bucket list ceck item.

Hello, zeit, welcome to the Eye. 
 
I appreciate your facination and long time study of Hemingway -- I've done with same with his sometimes friend, F. Scott Fitzgerald.  I hope you stick around -- I think you'll like it here.
 
Welcome, again.

ZEIT:  Wilkommen Meine Freunde !!!    An English Teacher, at Last !!!   We have a few Teachers in the Village, but you're the first that I remember admitting it !!!  Marvelously Refreshing ... I for one commit verbal faux pas , betimes, and am open to admonition ...
 
This Forum will certainly give you the opportunity to flex your skills ....... 
 
And, Don't Be Bashful ....... (Nobody Else Is)

is man is the only "link" to "wonder" what "it's" all about?...eat, reproduce, survive...and then there's the alpha, who defies all the odds, and still remember's,,,eat, reproduce and survive,,,yes, to homogenize everthing is to lose to much.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience."

 Teilhard de Chardin quotes (French Geologist, Priest, Philosopher and Mystic, 1881-1955)

cuukoo one of my favorite expressions...If I can only get outside of this body

the odds are 100% that you will...total odds of dying any cause 1 to 1.......it's just a matter of when and how.  on that happy note.
 
club car....doubles please....she says, in a kind and gentle voice......

Park4,  the   organized   bar  does  get  rid  of  incompetents,  as  best  we  can.  But  when  the  crime  is  reprehensible  the  taxpayers  revolt  by  voting  against  any  politician  who  whats  to  properly  fund  (a.k.a.  "coddle")  criminals.   The  problem  is  that  they  are  only  ACCUSED,  and  they  are  SOMEBODY'S  son,  husband,  brother. 
 
Jalopkin:  Never  change,  my  friend,  I  welcome  your  aggressive  outpouring  of  exactly  what  is  on  your  mind.  Hell,  it's  helpful  for  me  to  remember  that  an  enormous  number  of  the  jury  pool  thinks  exactly  like  you  do,  although  they  may  not  admit  it  during  jury  selection,  so  I  have  to  ferret  out  their  true  feelings  via  more  clandestine  means.  What  shows  they  watch,  what  they  read  (IF  they  read),  did  they  think  OJ  "got  off"  (1st  time,  Nicole  &  Ron  homicides)  because  of  "weasely  lawyers."  Ivan,  we  have  much  more  in  common  that  we  have  that  divides  us,  if  I  could  sit  you  down  I  could  give  you  a  better  perspective  of  that  proposition.  But  I  am  NOT  asking  you  to  change  a  hair  on  your  head,  ok?  Don't  suppose  I  could  buy  you  a  beer  or  two  some  day   when  I  am  in  your  precinct,  could  I???    Comraderie  flows  as  beer  flows,  and  dag  nabbit  I  am  stubborn  as  a  Junkyard  Dog...lol
 
Gotta  go  back  2  work,  virtual  friends,  this  night  sleep  will  only  be  an  illusion.....

Harold and Maude should cheer you right up, g....
 
 
 
 
 
heh
 
 

Bert, I honestly don't understand what you meant, in what you wrote.  I know everybody's somebody's child, but the ones we were talking about were not just accused, they were found guilty, and the "system" wants a do-over because of some incompetent attorney.
 
Start getting rid of the incompetents the first time around, or don't admit them to the bar at all.  There is no shortage of attornies in this country, god knows.  I can't believe the Bar will miss a few incompetents, or as many as there are.
 
As for Simpson, first time?
 
Of course he got off.  It was money and power and Johnnie C. and a starstruck judge and it was also jury nullification.
 
Even though he was somebody's son (and husband), he got off.  Got lucky.  But finally got what he deserved.  For the wrong reason, maybe, but face-man attorney, Yale Galanter, said they've filed an appeal.  The judge wasn't fair to them, is part of it. Good luck on that.
 
Now, Jackie Glass, that Nevada judge (second trial), I liked her....

Welcome Zeit!
CUUKOO-Don't think I didn't see your little contemplation of the bullfighters themselves. You sly woman...
BERT- Wouldn't a person be clever enough to know that if they did not think O.J. did it to lie about it? Maybe not...
 
 
A really great film w/ female bullfighting is Pedro Almodovar's "TALK TO HER". It's ravishing & just amazing.
 
RINGS- I can't reply to this site at work, so I could not wish you best wishes on your interview, but I thought it & now I'm sending good job thoughts your way.
 

Cap Nep!!!
WELCOME BACK, YAYYY!!!!
rings, got all my fingers n toes crossed for you. Regardless of the remuneration, I think the job itself would be FUN!
 
Now bullFIGHTING? No. This is bull MURDER, stylized. As with much entrenched violence, the ugliness is ritualized into 'traditions' and the blood soaks into the earth.
Except the bull has an entirely different perspective. Tortured, confused, harassed, and killed.
This is art? I don't think so. Sacrifice maybe.
It's another example of men finding an acceptable (to whom?) outlet for excess of testosterone. There are many examples of this-football (formalized warfare), hockey (ditto), even basketball. And boxing? The sweet science? Please... 
Anyone who thinks Ali's Parkinson's isn't workplace-related is fooling themselves.
NPR has an article this week on brain-damaged football players. There are quite a few of them. Isn't it odd, how we rarely hear about that?
How can killing a large animal be called a sport, an art form? How is it different from cockfighting, dogfighting, bear baiting, gladiatorial combat?
It isn't. It's ugly and wrong in so many ways.
 

Park4:   Perhaps  I  overengineered  the  answer,  I  have  a  problem  saying  things  simply  at  times.   In  capital  work,  the  problem  is  grossly  uneven  resources  allocation.  Prosecutors  and  their   experts  are  salaried  government  people.  The  defense  bar  is  not  top-heavy  with  people  willing  to  take  about  18  months  and  primarily  devote  it  to  one  case.  The  rest  of  your  practice  goes  to  hell,  clients  who  pay  the  bills  get  tired  of  being  in  2nd place  and  go  elsewhere.  And  good  experts  are  pricey,  and  usually  out  of  town.  
 
I  really  really  need  to  go  to   ed  at  least  for  a  while.  I  enjoyed  out  exchanges  today,  give  my  regards  to  those  in   the  club  car  still  sober  enough  to  say  "goodnight"  back.
 
Jalopkin:  Don't  cut  in  front  of  me   in  line,  I  saw  the  newbie  retired  teacher  first!   lol

Welcome Zeit. I'm not sure bulls have Manos... Mano a Pata?

Zeit, welcome. 
 
You're truly a man taking the high road.
 
I'd have made JP go to the blackboard and spell 'Hemingway' 100 times.

Bert:  I am willing to get together for a Ber or ten any time you want, and I can fit it into my schedule ....... When we do, I'll tell you exactly who killed Nicole and her Mule, and show you how/why I know O J didn't do it ... I don't like the guy, he is a lousy Actor, and I never saw him play Football, which wouldn't mean a thing to me anyway, cuz I have never cared for Football ... Played it some, and was Good, but grew up playing, Futbol & Beisball, and Bocce onna weekends ....... You'd be surprised how many women (Never Men) ask howcum my Balls are two different Sizes ... I always delight in showing them up close and explaining the Game to them, and then I make them open the next Bottle of Pol Roger, and make them take the first swig out of the freshly opened Bottle ... they stop asking questions very quickly ....... VOLA' !!!!!!!
 
As for ZEIT ... I am just delighted to have an admitted English Professor in the Village ... One who can put in check my malapropisms, from time to time .......
 
 
Oh ....... regardless of how the discussion turns out, and how much I respect your Right to be different from me ... We'll split the Bar Tab at the end of the Day/Week/Month, or whenever we leave the place ... You leave your Tip and I'll leave mine ... rather than quibble, you see ..............  If the Bartender asks us to start paying Rent, we'll know it is time to go .........  SKOJAK !!!!!!!
 
 
ps:  Remember from First Year Law School ??? An EXPERT   IS   a Guy from at least fifty miles out of town, with a Briefcase, and a Navy Blue Suit, that is so old that not only are the pants shiny at the seat, but it is an awful shade of Purple .......

Remember this song?.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umhsU565rfs&feature=player_embedded

Awwww. The Yankees lost  Boo Hoo  :)

Honey,  I'm   home!!!!!!    lol      Just  got  back,   had  to  arrange  to  surrender  a  young  man  to  the  Sheriff's  Office  in  the  next  county  by  noon  tomorrow,  so  he  won't  get  the  deputies  coming  looking  for  him.   Coupla  months  ago,  he  was  arrested,  heroin  problem.  Got  him  bonded  out,  but  I  made  a  deal  with  him,  and  with  his  parents....he  was  to  voluntarily  sign  himself  into  inpatient  rehab,  which  he  did.   Had  a  little  talk  with  his  dad,  told  him  he  needs  to  let  his  son  deal  with  this  with  my  help,  but  WITHOUT  his  parents  throwing  money  at  the  problem,  "lawyering  up"  with  the  wrong  lawyers  (bondsmen  affiliated).   Tomrrow  I  will  leave  Cincinnati  early,  visit  him  briefly  on  the  way  home.    Then  I  am  going  to  tell  him  that  the  price  of  admission  to  keep  him  out  of  prison  (mandatory  time,  substance  prepared  for  distribution)  is  to  agree  to  go  after  the  individual  that  I  am  certain  is  the  supplier,  and  HIS  supplier.  So  with  THIS  defense  lawyer,  the  kid  gets  dried  out  and  reconciled  with  his  parents,  his  parents  learn  to  cut  the  apron  strings  if  they  expect  him  to  be  a  man,  the  kid's  boss  agrees  to  hold  open  his  job,  and  POP......the  people  that  bring  this  stuff  into  our  fair  county  run  into  a  most  unexpected  problem   next  week......  Los  Federales,  with  a  squeaky  clean  search  warrant  (proofread  by  me  so  as  to  be  bulletproof).   JALOPKIN,  tell  me  one  more  time  how  it  is  that  I  coddle  criminals?

Olivia - Very eloquently said!! I am in total agreement that bullfighting is cruel, inhumane, and is NOT an art form IMHO. But is it just us guys that are at fault here, with our excess of testosterone? I don't attend any of the events that you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that there are many women present. Do they have excess estrogen? I don't want to kill any bulls, nor do I want to strap on a helmet and butt heads with anyone. Does that mean my testosterone level is about right? Maybe excess testosterone really IS at the root of these cruel contests, but I think it's more complicated than that. More complicated than my pea brain is able to figure out. And it's a bit off topic, but occasionally, while channel surfing, I run across World Wide Wrestling I think it is, with packed stadiums of people watching these absolutely idiotic games. And they actually pay money to get in? Will someone please explain these things to me, in layman's terms?

I really DO want to run with the bulls though (like Damnselfly), so perhaps I need to get some lab-work checked.

Where Bert ... did I say YOU coddle Criminals ???  I simply said that we have got to stop making excuses for them and Pay, fully, for their Crimes ... and that your diatribe commonly smacks of Guilty White Liberalism  .......
 
But Wait, There's More !!!
 
I am not suggesting that we invoke Lombroso, but there is a Fail-Safe method to be invoked after the fact(s) that would solve the problem ...
 
We usually declare a Three Time Loser an Habitual Criminal, and we warehouse him for Life ... and even some of THEM are paroled after a gaggle of Doo-Gooder Groups made up of people who have NEVER been victimized so's they can feel it by a Crime, and haven't got a stinking clue what the hell they are talking about, throw a bunch of money into the pot and Pressure everybody that they can, especially during an Election Year ... They are repeatedly victimized by crimes commited against the Constitution and against the Public, by government at every Level, but those sheep thinks thats the way things are supposed to be, and don't even notice that they are being Raped continuously, to death ... Not like getting mugged where one FEELS the crime, and is then capable of having empathy for other Crime Victims, and are not so quick to make excuses for Turds ....... (Is it any wonder that Spock's own kid killed himself???) Anyhow, a HUGE savings of Money, Time, and lives can be accomplished easily ....... I have said before, and again just today, that the entire Concept of RE-habilitation presupposes Habilitation ... and if one were not habilitated enough that he commited a Crime, how then do we have any hope of, RE-habilitating him ???  A ligitimate Question that the Liberals gloss over, spewing statistics and crap about "Programs" that take into consideration  all the trauma that some poor unfortunate Turd has been thru, and how badly he has been denied his Rights ... without ever mentioning the Rights of the Victim(s) ... or that he was traumatized in childhood because his mother loved her Peekapoo more than she did him .......(GEE  ZUSS!!!)
 
The answer is quite simple, and all it takes is a commitment to obey the Word of God and the Balls to follow thru with your commitment ... We must clearly redefine and understand what Capital Crimes are ... Then, we must clearly define and codify what REAL Non-Capital Crimes are, and stop creating crimes with the stroke of a pen, or the Decision of a Court, caused by "Interpreting" the Law rather than understanding it ... Every time a Judge makes a Ruling he creates another "Law" ... We lock people up for stupid things that are NOT Crimes, things that our Constitution Guarantee's us we can do, things that Creator-God said that we could do ...  We've simply used Laws/Statutes/Ordinances as an excuse to raise Revenue by Fining people for doing what God and the Constitution have long since said that they may do ...
 
The Top Spot on the List of Capital Crimes, should contain three things, in no particular order, as they are equally heinous and deserving to be ansered with hanging ... Murder, Child Molestation, and Rape ... Exhaust every avenue to get at the Truth including PSE, if the Turd is convicted, give him a year, in Jail , to perfect his appeal, and if that fails, hang his filthy ass in a public square, and Televise it, and leave his corpse hanging there until it rots and drops off ... then cremate the remains ... and we should let the victims, if living, pull the lever to drop the floor out from under the bastard ... The Crime Rate would drop to almost nothing in a very short time, when people ... kids especially ... see the evidence of what happens when we brak the Law ....... All Capital Crimes should be resolved in such manner, but the Top Three for sure .......
 
Non-Capital Crimes: once we determine what really is a Crime, and cut out this crap of arresting people for doing things that aren't really Crimes ... When after a Fair Trial that has exhausted every method to get at the Truth, a Turd is convicted, make him serve two years, day for day, cut him loose, give him back his life, consider the matter closed and let him re-enter society with no marks against him ... If a Turd doesn't learn his lesson in two years he is never going to learn it ... Longer sentences simply make Turds into better Criminals, and cost more Money to warehouse them ...  If he ever commits a Second Crime, and it is prooved beyond any doubt, in the Investigation ... Give him six months in jail to get his stuff together and say all his Goodbyes, and hang the stupid bastard ... because he is a Career Criminal and is only going to keep hurting people and costing us money to warehouse him and keep him healthy ...
 
That absolutely will work, Bert ....... And solve a whole lotta problems ....... Don;t know if you have ever seen a man hanged before, but I promise you it IS a genuine deterrent, un;ike this sleepy-time Lethal Injection crap .......
 
There is a marvelous way to raise Revenues for the State(s) without arresting people or fining them for Bogus Bullshit ... but thas a whole nuther Page ... We'll discuss that over a Beer or ten too .......
 

Ivan, you're magnificent.
 
p.

bert, what you described was mothering.  You're acting in loco parentis and that dealer doesn't need a parent, he needs a jail cell.
 
i know you think you fixed this all up and wrapped it up with a bow, but let's revisit it in a couple of weeks and take a look at the state of the pudding, in which we know is the proof.
 
there's nothing wrong with being a dreamer, except in real life with real people and real victims, then the dreams are not enough.
 
 

I too wish we could all save others from themselves but we can't.  The best we can do is to try to protect and defend the innocent by taking a strong stand on behalf of the victims.

Ti, you are an exceptional man, as we here know all too well! All praise to your T levels...
 
Women will always go to stuff like this with their men, to make sure they are going where they say they are, or just to be with them, or to get out of the house, and in rare instances because they like blood and death and horror. There are some women like that. I don't know any, but I guess they exist...
Men invented all that awful stuff, and war too. Women have more important things to do.
 
The entire wrestling phenomenon passeth all understanding. If aliens come down, I hope they don't tune that in first or we are all TOAST.
Or monster trucks and tractor pulls, demolition derbies and such...
 
Famous last words: "Hey, hold my beer and watch THIS!"
 
Men, all men...don't get me wrong, I love them! I like to run with the bulls too, the two-legged kind.
But like the poor, the deeply stupid and gullible and dangerously weird will be with us always, I suppose.
What was it Hunter Thompson said? "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Yeah, that's the ticket...or old Samuel Johnson:
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
Or Ambrose Bierce:
"Can such things be?"
Or the little green guy:
"Luminous beings are we!"
I'm going for luminous...stop killing stuff and step into the light!

why not leave it to economics....let the numbers do the running and talking....if it doesn't make money, they won't keep doing it.   $$$$$$$  (unless it gets a bail out and what's the sport in that?)
 
be your own choreographer.  it's your dance. 
 
(it's really hard to dance in glass slippers)

Not for Cinderella!

exactly

Well put, ladies.

The women on this site completely rock. Not leaving you boys out- just appreciating the women...