The Hell-Fire Clubs

OK, lets just start with Chris Rock.

THERE'S NO SEX IN THE CHAMPAGNE ROOM. 

But we can not  fail to mention Mrs. Peel in that classic Avengers episode, snake around her shoulders, spiky collar around her neck, us around her little finger...

Was I born too late?  This is the most basic exercise of the Wiccan religion's most basic law:  An ye harm none, do as thou wilt.

I wondered where ExPat had gone and this morning I found him on Google! It's Rene Magritte's 110th birthday. (my kingdom for diacritical marks) I imagine he used Google Maps to get there, instead of paper or GPS. It was quite nice to see him again, though we do miss his red apple here.

As a proud fan of Ben Franklin I feel an uncontrollable urge to jump to the defense whenever I hear about the Hell Fire club being satanic.  Mocking the all too powerful and corrupt Catholic Church of Franklin's era by dressing whores as nuns, is excusable by me.  Does that make me a satanist, am I feeling the burn of the Hell Fire yet, nope. However, I know that I have views that if I shouted from the rooftops would surely offend todays Pope, but I'm a conservative Christian who happens to be a realist.  I can relate to being in the position of Ben Franklin, being invited to these underground clubs for the kinky elite, I would have probably gone to see what it was all about myself.  But Benjamin Franklin, a founding father of our nation, staunch proponent of the Wild Turkey (an underestimated bird and a fine libation) and Master Mason being a satanist is just not something I'm willing to believe.  I'm with Ben Franklin....and Gatewood that you should be able to do what you like so long as it doesn't harm anyone but yourself.  The human mind is an amazing thing and some of us have minds that need constant stimulation, constant prodding and input, especially underground, esoteric, seemingly private info and ways of the world, this was Franklin, this is me.  A constant need to explore places one probably shouldn't, collecting old things, and communicating with other likeminded people who are convinced that academia is wrong, that we don't know everything, that not everything can be explained, nor should it be.  Franklin and other Hell Fire members were Masons, being a Mason I know that they couldn't have truly been irreligious libertines, or at least weren't supposed to be.  Modern media is an easily manipulated business model that knowingly pedals exaggerated stories regardless of their veracity, no one knew better how to manipulate the press and their readers than Benjamin Franklin.  Satanist, I say no.  Avid partier and wild man who enjoyed traveling the world and hooking up with strange women when the opportunity arose, I can't hate the man for that, I can however be thankful there are no paintings of him taking one of his famous air-baths.  Sorry for the long rant, this is my first one on this or any other blog.  Later, Nick K. Weiler (Lexington, Kentucky)

In my recollection of Hunter S Thompson's brief description of the Hellfire club, there was indeed a fair amount of harming others. Plain old physical harm in the way of maiming and torture, as I recall. HST was using it as a metaphor for the misbehavior of some modern politial crowd.

But let's step back a minute.  Mr P says:

What Ashe's gentlemen seem to be saying is that they should be free from the constraints of  church, state, and society to indulge in whatever they wanted as long as they didn't harm anyone but themselves.

'Scuse me, Mr. P. I am a contrarian, an agrarian, and a libertarian. But what exactly do you suggest one can do that harms only himself? And who gets to decide he will be free of the constraints of society? Are we talking about having to wear matching socks and write thank you notes? The ability to urinate outdoors? Or are we talking about doing  unto others, etc.

Why do you reckon those constraints exist in the first place? 

Don't wars and revolutions generally start when someone decides he can treat others any way he wants, free from the constraints of church, state, and society? 

Yes, I know it says "as long as, etc."  Ask the prostitute's mother if she is harmed by it. Ask her child's social worker. Ask her client's wife and children.

I haven't read the book, but I read the links on Dashwood and the monks and it sounds pretty darned revisionist to me. Well, the one about the monks concentrates on fleshly delights and the one on Dashwood is from one of those "famous people we are proud to claim" kind of pages. Lots of talk about "the old gods" and  amusing stories of  hypocrisy.  No luck loading the middle one.  Hints of high-powered politics are there, too.

I suppose one question is whether the politicians joined just for the privacy or the people who joined did so for political power.  Chances are, that question saw many different answers as the club's popularity grew. Any time a bunch of powerful people get together, regardless of their stated purpose ( Bocce, Botticelli, Boxing, or Box Lunches) somebody will want to be around just to see if some of that power might rub off. It sounds as if rubbing off  was one of the regular  activities at  The Old Abbey.

Anybody see a movie called PERSONAL SERVICES? How about SCANDAL? Personal Services is a fun romp through the history of Cynthia Payne, (aka Christine Painter" in the movie). Ms. Payne ( b 1932) describes herself as an experienced after dinner speaker, but that is probably not a euphemism. She is described on Wikipedia as a "party hostess" which most assuredly is one.

 And then SCANDAL is about Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice-Davies and, by the by, The Profumo Scandal: Great fun and probably responsible for a great deal of the  pre-hippie, post greaser 60s revival.

 Both of these movies depict people figuring it is OK as long as nobody gets hurt. What makes one a comedy and the other opne not is tha focus on who gets hurt, I suppose.

It's friday. Anybody want to talk Barbecue? 

Todays world... 

I am no expert in this area.  But I can say I have a nephew who is married to a gal who is the floor manager at a strip club.  I can say while all her friends that come over have well manufactured boobs, there is absolutely nothing up stairs.  I once was drawn into a game of Texas Hold em at their house.  Around midnight I got knocked out of the game.  I went out side and by the pool there were four topless gals, one propping her conversation pieces up with her hands as the others were admiring the fine work her surgeon did.  If there were a shortage on female participants to devil rituals, I might lnow where to find some volunteers.

To the thought on there is not as much sex, I think you are spot on:  I was selling a pair of DC10s in Amsterdame for three months.  I stayed in the Park Hotel on Leisdeplain about a ten minute walk from the red light district.  Every crew that came to down insisted on the "tour"  I'm walking down the street with a guy whos askes me to explain how it works.  I tell him its 30 gilder for about 10 minutes.  Why 10 minutes he asks?  Thats how long it takes to get your pants off, get the job done, get your pants back on and pay.  I've never done it for fear of disease at least but as I was explaining it we wittnessed a young guy and timed it.  From the time he made the proposition to the time he was back on the street it was  8 minutes elaosed time.  So in those devil worships...with no viagra...I am guessing the whole debauchery thing is more about the "club" thing and less about the act of  sex.

From the womens standpoint ...well I can only read and a good reference point from that time may be Madame Movary.  Madame Bovary's - (Emma) whos moral fabric was weaved in a convent. There she learned the morals of life's decisions She came to appreciate art, music, and culture was well read. When her mother died she returned to the farm to help her father out. It was in this setting that she met Monsieur Bouvary, succumbed to a courtship out of limited choice and marriage partially arranged, partially promoted by her father. She battled through life. 

While she setteled for marriage with a Doctor her passions roam. This sets the stage for Rodolphe. In the vacuum he sweeps in and cultivates four years of escapade and rendezvous. In classic French style of the time the scenes are romantic, not naughty. While Rodolphe plays the cock that couldn't crow with a strut instead, Emma plans a life together. Rodolphe plays along only to continue this perfect bachelor arrangement. Emma incurs tremendous debt arranging an escape to a new life only to find Rodolphe leaves her in a lurch. The scene draws a contrast of morals.

A moral code: "but one must bow to the opinion of the world and accept it's moral code"
But there are two types "The small conventional, that of men, that which constantly changes, that brays out so loudly, that makes such a commotion here below. Of earth and earthy. But the other, the eternal, that is about us and the blue heavens that give us light"

Being that Bovary was written by a man...is suppose this could be a mans view as well.

above is extracted from my review

http://cigarroomofbooks.blogspot.com/2007/12/madame-bovary.html

Back then I suspect it was more about esape from the rule of the church's hard edicts on the subject than it was about sex itself.  It was a mans world then and in my nephews world it still is.  As I look at those four women, I wonder after a hard roll, who would take care of the rest of things?  Today among my circle of friends, I think there is a balaned middle ground, for most of us sex is more a sanctioned mainstream anyway and does not require devil worship.  While always one of lifes pleasures, there is a bit more to life.

WELCOME NICK,

rock on. 

Welcome, Nick K. Weiler.  Recently, a fellow came along and said this place was better when fewer people knew about it.  Your impassioned post is a clear example of how wrong he was.  The more, the merrier!  I hope we hear more from you soon.

Nick!

I'm with my friends Trask and DPR. Well said. Rant on and welcome.

M.I.

P.S.

Especially liked this, and can very much relate:

"I'm a conservative Christian who happens to be a realist."

Bizarre rituals? Pagan baths? London street walkers dressed as nuns? Aristocratic rakes dressed up as monks? Religious mocking? Devil worship, sexual deviation and strange rituals?

Where do I sign up and what's the annual membership fee?

Does anyone else have scenes from the Film Eyes Wide Shut running through their minds? 

Woohoo sex, new people, and bbq!  Its gonna be a good Friday.  Yesterday - egg salad sandwiches and dancing, today the Earl of Sandwich and stripping, tomorrow Chicken salad sandwiches and ladies who lunch.

Nick - right on...."not everything can be explained, nor should it be."  I'm all for scientific research, space exploration, etc, you name it.  But sometimes, man needs to let things go. 

And yes, unfortunately, Eyes Wide Shut is my my head right now.  Hate. Tom. Cruise.

Paul, since prostitution in the Netherlands is regulated, that's probably the safest place in the world to spend 30 guilders.

PICK ME PICK ME PICK ME ~ I wanna be a Lady who Lunches..... 

Today's post leads me to wonder though ~ are people form the older generations just as kinky as this one?   In todays world there seems to be NO limits on what details for anything or anyone are released to the public. Yet generations ago the word Discreetion really did have a meaning.  

rings90,

 That is the first thing that popped in to my head.  The second thing were the rituals described in Browns book da VInci code.  http://cigarroomofbooks.blogspot.com/2007/12/da-vinci-code.html

 Church and sex..uuuhhm or actually those who challenge church and with sex.  Is it a power struggle where the battlefield is the bed room?

I have yet to see sex pop up at a barbie...but maybe I haven't seen enough of the world.

Willie, I agree with you.  "As long as it didn't harm anyone but themselves", is selfish and very difficult to actually achieve.  I've heard that lame excuse so many times and it is never, ever true.  If you are doing something to yourself that harms you but doesn't physically harm another person, you are still doing emotional damage to the ones you love.

Rings I'll bring the chicken salad if you bring the croissants to serve it on...Missive can bring the cheese plate and Olivia can bring the entertainment.

To me, this is just another example of rich men behaving badly and attempting to find a way to justify their antics, while protecting each other in the process. Because everyone else in their little Boy's Club is doing it then, obviously, they have to fit in as well. They certainly don't want to appear different, running the risk of possibly being perceived by their peers as condescending or not being a ‘team player'. They need these other high-powered men, like themselves, to promote their ideas, ambitions and careers. Or do they?

Warren Buffet once sent a memo to his managers saying, in part: "The five most dangerous words in business may be ‘Everybody else is doing it.' It's a seductive argument. Your attitude on such matters, expressed by behavior as well as words, will be the most important factor in how the culture of your business develops. And culture, more than rule books, determines how an organization behaves."

Plenty of lawyers, politicians, and top company executives were exposed for questionable behavior this year...and still they show up in Washington, in private jets, holding out their tin cups. I don't see Warren Buffet in line.

I might have a more favorable opinion of Ben Franklin if he had not been experiencing such pleasures while he was married. Here he was cavorting in London and Paris whilst his wife, trying to survive in war-torn Philadelphia, was running not only ‘her' household but deftly handling all of ‘his' investments and business dealings - including the Postal system. The ideals of Freemasonry have always left me in a quandary over why Franklin's, and many other's, debauchery was allowed but, yet, divorced men were not accepted into the order.

What do these Hell-Fire clubs indicate about integrity, ethics, moral character, and the behavior being manifested by our leaders today?

Kindlee is bringing the spice and vinegar to the ladies luncheon, well said.

nachista,

Thank you. Someone needed to supply the condiments.

Nick,

Welcome to the fold.

I have to chuckle at anyone oxymoronically calling himself "a conservative Christian who happens to be a realist."

I think, in the face of the Pat Robertsons in our time, we need a few more Hellfire Clubs, just to tweak their noses.  We need not tell them they are more like a combination book club/literary salon/poker night.

I'm doing the literature associated with this sort of thing as part of my Ph.D. (Ain't higher ed grand?)  Anyway, overexposure to the literary behavior makes two things readily apparent.  No, three.  Anyway, 1. rational control of the natural impulses gets you twisted behavior, either in the Aquinian sense or the de Sade sense.  2.  That these things very quickly become exercises in recombinant mathematics (X number of participants times y number of orifices and activities = z number of combinations.  Okay, now everybody switch.  Don't believe me? Read "120 days of Sodom."  I give it half an hour before you get bored.)  And 3. gossip is a key component to libertine behavior--more necessary than the behavior itself.  See "Dangerous Liaisons," where the whole seduction and corruption of la Tourvelle was motivated, not by Valmont's desire, but by the arrangement he made with the Marquise that she would be watching, and would reward him later.  She denies him at the last moment, and his whole lib ertine identity falls apart.  Why else go to the trouble to write memoirs where you have thousands of women?  Casanova's "Histoire" is kind of cute in that way; "My Secret Life" is decidedly less so.

My point here is not to provide a reading list of the salacious, but to suggest that the type of activities credited to the Hellfire club (and similar) are not the kind to sustain anyone's interest for very long, and may well have been...amped up?...for the purposes of libertine reputation.  Consider all the mystical business that the Masons are credited with.

Shandonista

it may be regulated but those gals are workng 16 customers a day and they go in for a check up once a week.  Naugh...30 gilders can buy you six Heinikens and some good conversation at any pub.  Trust me Dutch women have something to say.

I inadvertently forgot the final 't' in Buffett. Sorry.

Kindlee,

Your barking up my tree on your private jet comment.  The Biz Jet business.  Mine.  Please don't fall prey to the comments of the reckless.  Imagine when an official  like Gary Ackerman, D-New York  makes a public mockery of executives flying on jets that have been fiscally justified and paid for.     To the folks in Congress:  All of cooperate departments have to justify their existence every fiscal year and in the balance is the cost of traveling on the airlines versus the cost of running your company operations from your airborne office, much like our president does and most of our congress does, even when they are not working.  Who's planes was it you saw during the elections campaigns.  The occupants of those planes were Senators who were not at their posts.

jet use - v - airline travel  Lets face it in the auto business, they have plants providing jobs all over this country.  They have suppliers all over this country that they need to at least audt but to also work with.  Remember when airline travel use to be considered a luxuary?  Well truth be told thos jets are not all that luxarious...but they do provide an intrigal piece to operational strategy.  Do you know how many assembly line parts fly aroiund on those planes?  I look at it as those execs hitching a ride.

 Keep in mind I am not on the bail out wagon in any industry, let someone buy them out. 

By the Gods, tmd, are you suggesting - pray not so - that these sorts of stories may have - nay, must have indeed been - exaggerated to SELL NEWSPAPERS!?!

Another example of the liberal press ruining our culture. No, wait, the liberal press isn't to blame this time. It's the LIBERTINE press. Those dastards.

Nonetheless, I think I'll be convening the inaugural meeting of the Lake Arrowhead Hellfire Association this evening. Coyotemike's idea is a good one.

Actualy it brings to mind THE NINTH GATE - books and Devil worship and several other old films along the lines of SPECTRE (I date myself I fear) all said it does sound like a fascinating read.

I actually have my own Hellfire Club Meeting on Saturday Nite ~ a bunch of GF's & I get together to watch a season of SATC, drink & of course talk. I can just imagine the way our evenings could be twisted to sell some Tabloid.

tmd,

Very nice. LOVE, love, love the algebraic equation for 'possibilities.'

Rings,

Eyes Wide Shut was actually the first thing that came to mind this morning when I read this. Love that movie. Very provocative (am intending the philosophical meaning here).

All, 

Can't say anymore. Human behavior just interests me. If you don't believe that pure virtue is possible in humans, which I think both atheists, agnostics and Christians alike believe, then it seems there are two choices: Potential sin (judgement aka pride in virtue) or Latent/kinetic sin.

So choose.

Love this song fromt he film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaeIPLDsXNo 

Don't look at me . . .  why, I didn't even join little league

PeterLake,

You're adorable.  

Paul Murphy,

I meant nothing against the Biz Jet business, or you. 

To me, it just seems odd that as us 'common folk' are struggling to make ends meet; we tighten our belts, give up luxuries, stop using our private automobiles, sell what we can, utilize public transportation, etc...but, as many of these large corporations are struggling; they still have not cut unnecessary business expenditures, given up lavish meetings, curtailed travel, done away with exorbitant retirement packages, etc...I find it difficult to have sympathy for those of them who have such a blatant disregard for anything and anyone, except themselves. 

NonLinear_Grace and Patricia,

Welcome to the both of you. 

Miss Ive,

Oh garsh he says with a mighty blush that may last the rest of day.  Right back atcha!

Paul Murphy, Miss Ive & Shadonista = Great Minds Think A like.  

Wstrock,

Care to expand? Articulate where you see the contradiction? Am genuinely curious. Love a fair debate. 

M.I.

Michele - well said.   We may have invented existentialism and the VCR, but we are still just hairy animals.

I've been doing some Regency-era research with the idea of writing a novel that involves the Hellfire Club in the plot. I got the idea when I read about Arabella Dashwood Lee, Sir Francis Dashwood's daughter, who seemed to have cut quite a swath through English society in the late 18th century with her sharp wit and atheistic comments (according to Horace Walpole, she could demolish any churchman who tried to argue theology with her). Unfortunately not much is known about her except that she ran off with two Oxford chaps and ended up a social outcast. If anyone knows any more about her, I'd love to hear!

As for the Hell Fire Club, seems to me that it was inevitable--as in, a reaction will result in an equal and opposite reaction. The Church and Society were stringent and controlling in those days (they keep trying even now), and a complete rejection of both was probably irresistible to a lot of men. No doubt some women enjoyed them too. (Like Mrs. Peel, as mentioned.)

 "So some pushed the envelope a bit.......WHO CARES??? "  I'm thinking A lot of young Men & Women who were consenting "playmates" of Caligula or The Marquis de Sade would beg to differ.....  

Kindlee,

No harm taken I thought I'd use that as a foreay to a rant on what is going on in the press today.  As it turns out I  truely enjoy your participation and was hoping not to offend.  So  

Michele,

I am not sure its that simple or complex as you comment goes to both ends.  are you suggesting that at the height of passion it is possible for one to be thinking "this is wrong!!"  Or are you suggesting that at that moment they aren't thinking?

Separetaly,  I think the news makes a living reporting on the horrible acts of one man upon another.

Not to preach 'cos I do have this glass house I live in and it is real cold outside today, but one of my many high ranking goals (priorities to drift from time-to-time is to always try to hang on to whatever dignity I have and allow/enable others to maintain their dignity when the day is done.

That still leaves plenty of wiggle room to play in.

Anyone ever read Foucault's History of Sexuality? Very nerdy; I know. But so fecking interesting.

Not uber-nice to the Catholic church, though. Basically says that we think we're so liberated these days because, in the words of the infinitely wise Salt n' Peppa, we 'Talk about sex, baby.' 

And he says, no. To talk about is to examine. To examine is to control. To go to confession is to contain.

He lays the claim that to be truly 'open' about sex, you would treat the topic as you do the blowing of the nose—as if it's not a topic worth discussing. I paraphrase. That we would not talk about it at all, we would just do it, if we were truly 'open-minded' about it. I can't tell if he has an opinion either way. I like books like that. 

He also, sidebar, does this incredibly interesting thing with our investment in the control of life (marked by the advent of birth control) and the correlative investment in death. How death used to be treated as more commonplace. Death penatly—no biggy. Then birth control and the science of thinking about conception meant life was intentional. So death suddenly became more important, too. Mind-bending stuff.  

"I am not sure its that simple or complex as you comment goes to both ends.  are you suggesting that at the height of passion it is possible for one to be thinking "this is wrong!!"  Or are you suggesting that at that moment they aren't thinking?"

Isn't it possible to be doing both? ~ I know I have plead ALL of that thought, MANY MANY TIMES in my life & the chances of that particular conflict being in my life again is pretty much at the 99.5% mark...  Please don't make me have to come up with a new way for justification of my actions.   

Sounds good. Sign me up - the holidays are almost here.

I seriously doubt these guys were truly satanic. Just some upper class guys having some serious debauchery with a good marketing program behind them.

These guys rolled the dice every time they got together for these things. I think the risk finally outweighed the debauch & they quit. Most of them were lords and had plenty to lose if they were found out.

Ahhh, Ben, you old rascal, you. What would you have been like if they had had Viagra back then?

This put me in mind of that amazing Victorian-era book called "My Secret Life". What is it about English society that provokes this kind of behavior? Must be the weather...Joe Gracey

Pual Murphy ~ Read linked review about the Da Vinci Code, will check in to read more of your reviews. Find the quite interesting. Personally I thought the book was alright, thought it ended a little oddly though.

Missive,

 OK I thought long enough on your comment.  I was perplexed on your choices, both a variety of sin, so I am throwing out a tangental question..   I look at sin as the church's invention that man exploites all to oftern  If sin were to be an act where you are found forever guilty and therefore must submit to higher powers virtue has no chance.  If a person's action may be viewed as a mistake that can be forgiven, could virtue then have a chance?

For general ground rules there is some revilance as forgiveness comes up in a few passages in many religios documents...of any faith....so I am curious to see where this gpes.

Nom, Nom, Nom, Nom *shaking empty popcorn bag*. Crap!  Don't post anymore 'til I come back with more popcorn, this is great stuff.

Paul,

I hesitate to use personal example here, but feel this is not a conversation for the theoretical. It's really simple for me. I never broke the rules intentionally as a child. I was one of three girls in a very strong Christian home. If curfew was midnight, I was home at 11:30. We were not to have sex. I did not.

We were not to listen to secular radio. I did not. My sisters broke all the rules. And I judged them. I isolated myself from a genuine relationship with them because I couldn't listen to their experiences.  Now, looking back, I feel that my sin of judgement was at least equal, if not more ugly, than anything they were doing.

One night my friends were goint to TP an underclassman, and I asked permission to go with them. Yes. I asked permission. 

My father laughed. He said, "Sometimes breaking the rules is just as important to your character as following them. Don't tell me these things. Just do them. I'll still love you."

So that's sort of my model for Faith. Either way, you're a sinner. Just try to keep in check.

Paul Murphy ~ Isn't the wages of sin death? at least that's the doctrine my Religion seems to embrace.

or, the memorable line in the movie CANDY: if you've got an itch, scratch it

Oooh, what fun! 

 Another question: is libertinism necessary in a society that is not particularly repressive? Or does it tend to be a reaction to repression? 

 Certainly the sort of flamboyant naughtiness that the Hellfire Club became known for was, as much as anything else, the acting out of privileged young men carefully designed to annoy their elders. 

 As for Satanism vs Christianity--that seems to me to be rather tangential. Satanism historically is really mostly just another way of being shocking and naughty and getting up the nose of polite society. Before Anton LaVey, there was Aleister Crowley--a rather good occult technician really, and as naughty as any well brought up Victorian boy could wish. 

Miss Ive Why stay in check if your already THE SINNER?

What's there to keep you in check? a moral conscience? Noone seems to have the same Moral Conscience so that can't make the difference, A true understanding of right & wrong, well that seems to be a grey area also....

Maybe this is the way the way the Hell Fire Club felt & the reasons why they did what they did.  

One of my favourite heroes is Egon Schiele who painted 'Self Portrait Masturbating' at a time when his fellow Viennese, Sigmund Freud was too uptight to discuss the subject with his family.  Victorianism had nothing on the early 20th century Viennese and they happily put Egon in prison for his having painted and displayed his work where tender minds could encounter it.

"Actualy it brings to mind THE NINTH GATE - books and Devil worship and several other old films along the lines of SPECTRE (I date myself I fear) all said it does sound like a fascinating read. "

 Oh, Patricia, please tell me you read the Perez-Reverte book that the Ninth Gate was very loosely based on . . . the movie was a travesty (and I still liked it) compared to the intricacies of "The Club Dumas."

To rings90,

When you mention the "playmates" of the Marquis and Caligula; I still can't help but think of consent and it's role to the situation.  Some of them may have come willingly, and found it was not what they bargained for. If they were made to stay or participate in something against their will, they are not consenting. 

Others sought out the company of the aforementioned, knowing full well the implications, and stayed.  To this very day the same thing goes on across the entire world.  It seems to me that if someone wants to find their "answers" that way who am I to presume that they should do otherwise.  We all walk different paths. 

Paul Murphy,

When I said:

"We can't help but desire things whilst telling ourselves all the reasons why we should deny that desire."

I meant it in a broad sense that applies to many things.

However, since you mentioned passion, or rather, passion's height and whether or not one can have the thought of "this is wrong"; I say, of course!  What is the reason that you're asking yourself that though?  It's real easy to put this in the 'All Things Subjective' category.

...and, rings90, when you said:

 "Isn't it possible to be doing both? ~ I know I have plead ALL of that thought, MANY MANY TIMES in my life & the chances of that particular conflict being in my life again is pretty much at the 99.5% mark...  Please don't make me have to come up with a new way for justification of my actions." 

I found myself thinking the honesty refreshing.

Cheers,

Michele

Rings,

I think this theory is unique, and customly made for Miss Ive. My problem has always been to challenge myself to mess up a little more often and not beat myself up over it. Don't know if that's true for all.

Just sayin'.

All,

Unbelievable to see so many new faces here today! See?! How can you not like what a little debauchery can do for a community?! 

Might it not be reduced to the idea that Faith cannot abide Question?  The questioning mind must by nature look at the things denied to it by Faith, Rules of Social behaviour or custom.

I only just now noticed that this conversation was going on and all. I wasn't getting the announcements before, or else deleting them.

 Hi everybody. I'm new. You all look like fun--and this is just the sort of topic to tease me into a discussion on a whim with a bunch of people I don't know yet. 

Hello, Jane Darwin.  I'm new as well, if one counts from first posting rather than past lurking. It is an interesting bunch and one hopes that they don't see us as intruding.

caprichosmorales,

You mention faith, but whose?  'Faith' has worn many hats since time began and people attached the conotation.  Faith is relative to the person and that person's belief system.  Not all of us believe the same thing.

To rings90...If 68 qualifies as the older generation, you should have lived through the 60's and 70's...LIBERTARIANS ARISE! We had a really good time.

I mean the faith that demands adherence to a strict dogma and seeks to stamp out any dissention. For example:parthenogenisis, creation as opposed to evolution, geo centric as opposed to solar orbits. The reason that not all of us believe in the same thing is perhaps, why we are all willing to enter this sort of dialogue.  There are many who wouldn't dare as it might impinge on their 'faith'.   

boogiesmom ~ I was more meaning the generations before the 60's/70's Cultural & Sexual Revolutions....

I've heard tha the 60 & 70's were a good time.... Although some of the fashion choices I can't seem to find being considered so good...  

to boogiesmom, my age indicates that i did, in fact live through the 60s and 70s but considering all the things that i smoked, snorted or ate, it might be an illusion as the bell bottom, hip hugging, tie dyed fashions seem to still be around and there is still that troubling overseas war business.  the gray hair and beard are a bit puzzling however.

To me, the center of everything is family- mine in particular.

My wife and I married young and she has never, for a day, failed to be the focus of all of my fantasies and urges. A gift and an appreciated one. I married way up.

About half of the guys our age, and some pretty surprising ones at that, went through the high testosterone, party man stage and about half of them wound up divorced- some more than once.

Some I knew in the context of hunting or fishing and I simply observed without judgement how complicated their lives became.

The problem of defining: "As long as no one is harmed," seems less important than: If you are a married person, is your other half getting full value?

It would seem unlikely in terms of time, money and physical resources.

Don't get me wrong, I've got a little streak of pure evil as well. Why, just today at the gas station, I did not remove my card quickly and once- looking right, looking left, I did a slow three sixty before pulling it out. Darn right.

Welcome to all of you new voices!!

I am a lover of historical fiction and nonfiction. I've read several books on the comportment of the royals and aristocrats of the preceding centuries. I think most of us have an ethical rudder to steer us through lifes iffy moments---having written that,the royals and prasants alike,during those bygone days,consumed their daily bread and libations from lead-based cups and cutlery. They went a "little' nuts,people! I forgive them because I must,for I have no such solid excuse for my behavior during the seventies.  

rings90~ the ones before the 60s and 70s had their own cultural and sexual revolutions, the 20s and 30s were wild refutations of the decades that preceeded them, the beat generation of the 40s and the rock and roll of the 50s was a fight against the square thinking establishment of the eisenhower/ mccarthy mentalities.  all my life it's been a questioning of the established by the youth of that particular time. now, it's a chance to sit back and watch how the new revolution takes form, that's a healthy thing too, i think.

caprichosmorales,

The ideas of 'dogma' in relation to the church were created by man (or, in this case "The Man" which was the church at that time) in reflection of his own ethical and political views and agendas.

You missed my point when I said that 'faith', in and of itself, has worn many hats over time. There was a time before the word of God was spread.  People thought differently then. I realize that when someone refers to faith in this day and age people immediatly think of the Christian church, but; the idea of faith was around long before then.  Faith is something more broad and it's connotation depends entirely on the wielder.

There may be some truth to the activities at Daswood's Hellfire Club.  A portait of Dashwood has him pretending to be St. Francis of Assisi, but instead of a Bible he's reading an erotic Latin book called "Elgantiae Latini Sermonis". The "halo" that Daswood is wearing has his friend the Earl of Sandwich peaking out from it. The motto of the Hellfire Club was "Fay ce que vouldras"......"Do what thou wilt".  The phrase may have come from rabelais but it found it's lasting fam in Alester Crowley's (another "Hell Raiser") philosophy of "Do what thou wilt...."

I plan on eating a sandwich, reading Franklin's biography, and "doing what I wilt......" which for me means checking my "Owner's Manual".   

MissIve--

 To talk about sex is to try to control it; the imposition of the rational on the instinctual (instinctive?).  To talk about it is also to attempt to universalize an inherently individual experience, to cross the boundary that makes every man an island.  Descartes, by the by, has a lot to answer for.

 Poet Michele--it is never about consent for the Marquis.  As a product of the enlightenment, he is well versed in both the superiority of the mind over experience, and the superiority of the self over all others.  Other participants are necessarily either in collusion (therefore "of my mind") or objects of control.  Would you ask a chair if it consents to be sat upon?  (No, I don't think it is right.  I do think this is an adequate representation of the arrogance of the time.)

 Jonathan Isles--

Not journalism as in media, but as in publishing, certainly!  The rise of the novel in the 18th century could only happen because of the rise of the 17th century pamphlet publishers.  The libertine novel had all the scandalous goodness of those pamphlets, without the potential for libel suits.  And, since porn is not known for its narrative structure (being based more on the lather-rinse-repeat model than the beginning-middle-end), a common and lucrative practice was to excerpt and republish portions of stories as new novels or "translations."  That's why so many of them are in first-person, it gives that frisson of voyeurism people once got out of pamphlets and tell-all confession.  Not significantly different from "People" interviews, now that I think of it.  Nice to know the world doesn't change much, hmmm? 

I will stop tainting a perfectly good scandal discussion with my boring old history now.

Welcome to all the new people! It's been such a lively discussion.

"In my humble opinion as far as sex goes, if EVERYONE is consenting, what's the big deal?  We all have secret inclinations, thoughts, and desires.  If we actually find people of like mind to commiserate, so much the better.  A closed door is a closed door."

I simply must be too straight-laced. Not once in today's posts have I seen the slightest mention of self-respect or respect for one's spouse or family.

If I follow the gist of these posts, the iron-clad excuse then, for doing what you want, when you want, with whomever you want (as long as everyone is consenting, of course), is that one is not responsible for his/her behavior because we are all weak, imperfect humans. And, if you think any differently, it's because you've been brain-washed by some form of religion. Or do I totally misunderstand what's been said here today?

Perhaps I'm living in the wrong century...

Today's topic is one on which I know way too much.... WAY too much.  I will simply say I've lived a very interesting life, been very lucky, known some very fascinating people, and have a very unusual morality regarding the entire issue... I NOW LOCK DOWN....

Poetmichele,

 I wasn't asking myself because I guess I am not as often conflicted.  Especially at that passionate moment.  I was asking you for your thoughts. I am not sure if its a fault or not, but once I make up my mind I'm in.  And I am in because I want to be in.  I save regret for later...so that I can enjoy the moment.

ExPat,

Nice to see/hear from you, again.

Stoney,

At last someone who mentioned respect for wife and family, even if all of us do have a little streak of pure evil :) Thank you. I don't feel quite so alone now.

PoetMichele  Faith has a definition that I take to be roughly the adherence to a belief or an idea.  It's true that the word is primarily used in relation to religion but if one has faith then they feel strongly or believe absolutely in that way of thinking.  In other words: without question.  That's all that I meant.

 To Kindlee, I would think that self respect and respect for spouse and family would go without saying. 

To Doc Nolan, I would say to come back soon as I think that we may have a lot in common

Paul Murphy,

I meant "you" in the ubiquitous sense.  I didn't mean you, specifically.  The person asking themselves such a question during such a moment clearly hasn't thought it through. Since you asked me for my opinion; I'm in your camp. Once I've made up my mind to do something I'm all in. The outcome of my decision, right or wrong, is the lesson I take from it. 

WOW! You guys are all so welcoming, thanks for you kind words!  Willie, I'm a huge fan of HST, I have a book of his letters on my nightstand right now, I never knew he wrote about Hell Fire, that's great.  

caprichosmorales, 

On the contrary, but with all due respect, I think respect needs to be stated and not ignored as being inconsquential. 

arggh...inconsequential...that's better.

Kindlee,

Just for the record, in no way do I condone lack of respect for self or family. I'm a wife and mother of two. People who did/do this weren't all there extra-maritally, however, and it seems that this is what you're referring to.

It all comes down to personal choice in the end.  I, myself, try to avoid the type of narcissim of telling someone they're wrong for a private and personal choice.  We will all eventually account and atone in some form or fashion.  I want to point out that we don't really know all the cosmic rules.  There was no set of guideline issued us when we started out as fledgling souls.  Me? I just try to do the best I can with what I'm given, help others to the best of my ability, and remember my place in all things great and small. What else is there?

I keep running into comments where solely instances of behaviors that do indeed hurt others being thrown in......the whole point of the "do as your gunna" (my version) is that you do as you will SO LONG AS NO ONE ELSE IS HARMED.  Therefore, the prostitute's mom being harmed, means endulging in sex with a prostitute is one of the things you shouldn't do, because it is indeed quite harmful.  My defense of big Ben i strictly in the case of him not being a satanist, I also don't doubt he didn't chase a lot of tail, but I don't think he had to pay for it.  For the record, I find prostitution repugnent, repugnant, dirty and sad.  In my day job I sit down one on one with prostitutes, murderers, drug dealers, rapists, pederasts, and the prostitutes are the saddest of the bunch.  Prostitutes generally are whoring to pay for a drug habit that was started to numb the pain of child sexual abuse or something similarly horrific.  

Caligula, holy crap!  How did we get from Hell Fire and Ben to Caligula, that's one sick bastard, I doubt his sister was willing........willing especially to have the "abortion" performed by her brother.  Shew.  

Kindlee I agree with you, respect for one's self and loved ones is very important, you're not in the wrong century. 

Today's topic has been like a tennis match with all the back and forth.

I think people who spend all their time trying to be outrageous and overtly sexual and lecture others about sex...are using the time they should be having sex to write thsse lectures and plan those public displays.  I have sex all the time but I feel no compulsion to discuss it or share details with others.  I enjoy it but keep it private because some things are better when they aren't common knowledge.  To me it is sacred, not secret, and enjoy it as such.

I love and crave dark chocolate torte slathered in macerated strawberries and chantilly cream, but I don't have it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  If I ate it whenever I had the whim and indulged in it daily it would lose its appeal and I would grow weary of the richness.  So I go dark every now and then for variation, but a regular creamcicle is just fine for dessert on your average weeknight.

Expat, whats in YOUR sandwich?

Oh, and Crowley, another freak.  I have to say, if you dropped crowley on one side of the scales and Ben Franklin on the other, crowley's side would dip straight into hell.  Ben Franklin is a confirmed Mason, brilliant to an extreme that still hasn't been fully acknowledged.  On the other hand, Crowley was a user and a faker.  He weaseled his way into some secret groups only to be kicked out, then claimed to be members of others, he was a user or people, a con-man in my opinion, I have a good friend that is completely obsorbed with Crowley's crap.  Crowley just strikes me as a guy who was by all accounts pretty intelligent, but severely f'd up by his father and dove striaght to the dark side of everything to get back at daddy.  

Damn, out of popcorn again...

As a student of human nature, I have noted two basic truths: Folk always wish to throw over whatever constraints they perceive; and after the "first flush" there is always far more talk than action.

It is interesting that the Ephesian folk, who had a wild and wooly-anything-goes society and begged Paul (formerly Saul) to help them live a more structured life with morals and mores. All those things that were so appealing had lost their luster.

All responders are correct when the suggest some of this activity was against the severe restraints of the church.

It seems humans live forever in an age of one extreme or another. I may be a prude but do wish I lived in an age when a modicum more decorum were the norm.

My sammich is Ham and Cheese..........and it's good, real good.  And Milk with ice, yeah, I said it, Milk with ICE.  You wouldn't imagine the people I piss off and offend by putting ice in my milk.  Well, Weiler, he gots scruples, no whores, no stealin', some fightin' and lots of ICE in his Milk.  My Epitaph. Apparently I like capitlizing things that don't warrant it.........it's like the ICE, deal with it.  

nachista, what kind of popcorn are you grubbin on?

I would love to have a glass of bourbon and nice cigar right now.....but I'm out of cigars and I have to work in a few hours. It wouldn't hurt anyone else if I didn't have to work tonight.  See, how that works.

Willie your stuff is great man.

Dread Pirate Roberts, I'm a pirate reader, always have been fascinated with privateers, I think peterman could have been a privateer, well at least could have stocked their ships with fantastic looking stuff.  Anyway, regards and a nod to you sir.

Sorry Nick ~ Ice kills the taste of the milk IMHO ~ But when it comes to WAY COLD milk I'm SO there...Nachista Now I have to think of Skunks again....Dang you...  

Nick I always seem to lump Caligula & de Sade to gether, that's how I got there.. Not sure about the rest. 

Have a great weekend everyone I'm on my way out to have a 3 day drunk (its the opening of Deer Season in WI, SO I'm TOTALLY Allowed.)  

MissIVE I see your on the honor roll 6 times, what's the comment honor roll? 

Emily -- "student of human nature".  me too, like Paul Moody, another unofficial sociologist.

Nick, I bet you put ice in your root beer too, that's sick and wrong and I think we need to form a club to explore other avenues of innocent drink perversion.  Let's try dipping graham crackers in lemonade and see what happens.  Muwahahahahaha.

Actually the popcorn is just regular microwave butter, nothing else here at work. 

So this is completely off topic but,

My 17 year old nephew is in his high school's production of "Grease", tonight is opening night.  What does one present to a teenage thespian?  Flowers for the girls, but for a guy?  We've been brainstorming for something non-girly and these are the suggestiong so far: Ham and pineapple pizza-heavy on the HAM, a cactus, gift baskt full of old spice, or an egg salad sandwich.

Quick with the suggestions please, I have to meet my sister in 2 hours, not much time to shop.

Emily,

Welcome. Love your name, love your last paragraph and agree.

Paul Murphy,

Youir reference: "Hard roll," really got me to thinking. I had one with extra crunchy peanut butter and a cold glass of milk. Excellent.

Rings, do you want me to fedex you a banana?

Alright, Mr. Peterman. Where did the link to Bohemian Grove go?? - it was here this morning!!

PoetMichele,

I'm not trying to practice narcissism, here. People can do what they want in their own lives. I have tried, however, to instill in my 3 sons the importance of self-respect and of respecting women. I also know they believe that just because everyone else is doing something doesn't mean they have to do it, too. We are not so many lemmings following our leaders into the sea.

Today's topic, Hell-Fire clubs, are not just clubs for single men. They are/have been for rich, powerful, influential men (many of them married). This morning, a link to Bohemian Grove, also told of how currently many of our country's influential men (again, quite a few married ones) attend their 3-week summer encampment.   http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/bohos/bohofact.html

Throughout history, many members of these secret male social clubs were married, Ben Franklin, mentioned above, among them.

If someone wants to use the services of a prostitute, take part in an orgy, worship the devil or whatever, that is their business. When their actions begin to have an effect on my life, or, in the case of politicians and corporate CEO's, on the direction in which this country is heading, then that becomes my business, as well. At that point, I should be allowed to question them and their ethics.

Kindlee, I take your point but don't know why you'd have me as seeing self respect and respect for others as of no consequence, just because I don't state it outright. I assume everyone here today has a measure of self respect and respect for others in spite of the subject matter that's evolved or the particular views expressed.

for the teenage thespian, I would say a hawaiian pizza heavy on the ham indeed is a good choice.  If your in Lexington I would say Joe Bolognia's with breadsticks and garlic butter, and extra sides of hot marinara to go!

rootbeer with ice..........damn right, I even mix barqe's and coke half and half in a 32 oz. cup most nights before my 3rd shift.  Lots of ICE.  

nachista, I got it!!! A gift certicate to ticketmaster for a local concert or professional play of some type if that's his thing!