My respect for South-Side John continues to increase. Anyone who quotes Douglas Adams in the midst of a political discuassion is a friend of mine!

Sorry, I actually meant for that last post to be in yesterday's "A Third Choice?" forum but the forums switched over to this one while I was typing.

I am a big believer in heroism and, like Mr. Peterman, I believe a hero's virtues outweigh his faults. As my father (a heroic figure on, perhaps, a small scale) used to say, "Genius covers a multitude of sins."

For the title of Greatest Hero of the Last Century, I would nominate the late great Raoul Wallenberg. The Swedish printer-turned-diplomat rescued tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews during the Holocaust, often from right under the nose of Adolf Eichmann. In some cases, he used his skills as a printer by simply creating fake passports for them. Often, he used his diplomatic talents for convincing officers not to carry out orders of murder.

Wallenberg is the only person other than the Marquis de Lafayette to be granted the status of honorary American citizen.

I agree with DreadPirateRoberts on his choices. I also agree with the fact that our heroes can and should have flaws.....how else can we admire them.

I'm always reminded of the heroes who died at the Alamo. It's one thing to die for a cause, it's quiet another to know you will surely die for a cause. And your death will be tomorrow morning. But today, we are reminded of the shortcomings of Crockett , Bowie, Travis, and the others at the Alamo by people who want to destroy our heroes.

I for one admire what they did, why they did it, and find them even more the hero because they were less (and in some cases much less) then perfect.

So our heroes have clay feet........better than having a clay head like their detractors.

"I think a hero is an ordinary individual who finds strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles."

Christopher Reeve

Well, I think a big part of the turn from heroism has to do with the relative importance of circumstance and planning. Earlier this century, if a man didn't plan well, went off and did something courageous, and perished for it, he was a hero. Indeed, the polar explorer Robert F. Scott once said that "The causes of disaster are not due to faulty organisation but to misfortune." This was taken as gospel truth by the Brits of his day, and said by a man who was a famously bad planner.

When it comes to people wanting to destroy our heroes, I think it's more complex than that. I think there's been a major shift in values--from a man with 'cohones' who led from his gut to a man/woman who is willing to give his/her life for others in a humanitarian way. The heroes of our age are people like Mother Theresa, the Dalai Lama, MLK, even Pope JohnPaul II. These are far more in line with what many would like our values to be today.

Me, I'll stick with two men: Sir Earnest Shackleton and Lawrence Oats. The former led from his gut, and completely wrecked his mission. He then figured out how to get all of his men back alive, and took every precaution necessary to do so. The latter realized that he, as a result of illness, was slowing down his comrades, and that he was a liability to their lives. Therefore, one morning, without even putting his boots on, he told them "I am just going outside and may be some time." He then set off into -40 degree F weather in hopes of saving their lives. These are the men to whose compasses we should align.

To Mr. Roush

Good call, sir. I am only marginally familiar with Oats but Shackleton has long been one of my heroes.

I think there is a double-edged sword at work when we discuss the notion of values and heroics. It is true that today's values are different from yesterday's and we choose our heroes accordingly. But, as the saying goes, the story doesn't end there. We live in an age of shameless nihilism when cynicism and pessimism are seen as sophisticated while optimism, idealism, and a sunny disposition are scorned as "hopelessly naive".

I remember when the third HARRY POTTER movie came out, the artists at work were being interviewed and attempted to sell the film by saying "Well, this one's going to be a lot darker!" Since when does "darker" automatically equal "better"?

I'll throw my hat into the J. Peterman bandwagon and brand him a hero because he appreciates the "factual romance" of life and doesn't dwell in the darker nihilism that is so commonly valued today.

To: DreadPirateRoberts

Amen

To DreadPirate,

I agree with the pessimism problem. Since when did it become wrong to like your job? When I say that, people think I'm gloating and trying to piss them off. I'm just not quite sure how that yields the shift in heroic values. Theoretically, I think it ought to remove all heroes, when in fact there are plenty 'modern age' heroes.

Why is George Clooney listed on that poll above? Okay, maybe it's just too early, and my sense of humor hasn't switched on. I'll go have another cup of tea.

I think we should add the first group of astronauts to the list of heroes. These guys had "the right stuff" for a reason.

I also nominate George Mallory, who almost (or maybe did) make it to the top of Everest first. He was sometimes considered reckless and a risk taker. How about Steve Fosset? He was often accused of being a glory seeker and self-centered. My response to that is "So?" or should it be "So what!"

Perhaps the "factual romance" attitude towards life is the basis of our (Peterman's people's) everyday heroism. To face the pessimistic and increasingly media driven negative world with our attitude makes us all heroes. Thanks to J. Peterman we have a way we can get our "clay feet" wet.

I think there are a lot of heroes still out there. But they are not in the spotlight and, for the most part, not doing big, headline-grabbing sort of valiant acts. They are in the trenches of life, working one-on-one, helping and influencing. The upsurge in volunteers in this country show that some of us are still out there trying to do things that are above the ordinary. Look at Habitat for Humanity. Don't you think that the recipients of those homes think that everybody that worked on their house was a hero?

Maybe the problem is that we want the Superman sort of bigger-than-life hero and therefore overlook the every day heroes around us. I teach water therapy classes at a wellness center and when I see articles in the paper about 96yo's winning some race at a Senior Games event, I am really not nearly as impressed as the stories of my little old ladies that overcome pain and degenerative disease to again start living an active life. They are my heroes. No paparazzi, no expose', no publicity in the lease. Just quietly doing extraordinary things.

Of course, I would like to see George Clooney on any hero's list... of any list at all...!

I prefer my hero's with roasted peppers.....and a little prosciutto....

I also prefer the send button not be so sensitive.....

To: Spinner,

You're right about Habitat for Humanity. I've donated money and time to Habitat. I'm no hero, but there are many who do work for habitat who really are.

ExPat

When I was about 13 my family went out to D.C. ~ Being a historical child that always asked why & who & how. The history of Virginia & D.C. was just more than I could have ever dreamt about at the time.

It also was about the time that the Jefferson Hemmings affair was begining to be validated by Historical Scholars & by Jefferson's estate Monticello.

Jefferson was already one of my hero's & to be a young girl & hear that he had a mistress & kids out of wedlock distressed me for awhile. It was very hard to comprehend WHY this man who had such a grand belief in equal rights never married the mulatto Sally. It was a HUGE lesson to me about people's beliefs, actions, & lifestyles that really rocked my young world. Upon (kind of) maturing & gathering more of an understanding of history & life ~ Jefferson is again after a bit of an absence listed as one of my Hero's.

It was a tough lesson though to learn of the faults of this person who I found to be extrordinary & its a tough lesson to learn of the faults of many of the people from history that are admired.

More famous "current" Heros that I admire include Nelson Mandela & Mikhail Gorbochev. It also seems that I've learned the lessons from Jefferson's Flaws well because Mandela & Gorbochev's pasts are not flawless either.

I second the Mercury 7 as heroes. Especially Gordo Cooper. The guy had so much faith in his equipment he was able to take a nap on the pad. He nodded off again in orbit, making him the first man to sleep in space. If that's not calm under fire, I don't know what is.

Maybe that's how we ought to define hero-calm and resolute in the face of overwhelming adversity. That certainly covers the "factual romance," the explorations of harsh climates, as well as Habitat for Humanity and the Little Sisters of the Poor.

I think "hero" gets way overused by today's media, applied to anyone who shows a momentary burst of courage or luck. For a real standard of sustained, enobling heroism, I tip my hat to Jackie Robinson.

Each morning when I am out running I see an older gentleman walking in the opposite direction. I believe he suffered a stroke a few years ago. Back then he walked very slowly with his head tipped slightly to one side.

Through the past two years there has hardly been a time that I have been out and haven't seen him out on his walk. I have witnessed his perseverance and recovery. Now he walks quite briskly. To me, he is a hero. I think of him often when I need a little inspiration. I think there are many heroes out there. You don't have to look into history books--and certainly not to Hollywood--to find them.

To Spinner: Word. There ARE heroes among us. Volunteers, caretakers, firefighters, activists, mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters- people who do the right thing. Thank God.

To J. Peterman: Thank you for bringing up such an important topic, in such a thoughtful way. Heroes, sung and unsung, inspire us to be better people, to live meaningful lives, and to do the best we can. They make the world a better place- a contribution without which we’d be lost.

First and foremost, I think I have been raised at least two levels both socially and morally since reading and participating in these discussions with you all. I doff my cap to all of you, and especially to our humble and noble host.

As far as heroes are concerned, I think every society has, and shall always have, a great, and often desperate need for acts of heroism to act as shining examples of what we mere mortals are capable of accomplishing when put to task. These deeds may be on a grand scale or merely touch one’s life in a positive way. I specifically speak to acts of heroism, whether they are a single act on a grand scale or noble, good hearted deeds performed on a daily basis. To go beyond just actions and scrutinize all aspects of the lives of our heroes under a microscope would by definition eliminate human beings from consideration. Personally, I think if you don’t make mistakes then you’re just not trying hard enough.

I agree with all of the great heroes and acts of heroism that have already been mentioned. Some of whom I had never heard of before today which is a lesson in itself for me. Jonas Salk and my parents are my personal favorites but I can also see George Clooney getting some nods for his efforts on behalf of charity and other causes (I had to strain a bit to get that one said) . I believe that anyone who knowingly does something to make life better or safer for someone else, regardless of the effort and risk to him or herself, and because he/she believes it’s the right thing to do, is a hero.

I also believe that our age desperately needs to shine a light on some larger-than-life acts of heroism, if only we could accept these heroes for what they are, real people who have flaws just like the rest of us.

Be well
J

p.s. to DreadPirateRobert, thanks for the comment, Any friend of Douglas Adams and his amazing wit, wisdom and imagination is a friend of mine. Pursuant to yesterday’s topic, “Zaphod Beeblebrox for President – twice the heads, half the brains”

Heroes to me are those who perform selfless acts of courage, or goodness, or sacrifice that are beyond what I would do or expect others to do........and that leave me with a renewed faith in the human spirit - whether through a single act or a lifetime of inspiring actions.

A few flaws keeps them human.....and serves to remind us that we all have the ability to make a difference.......

I kind of like hearing about our Hero's "faults". It makes them seem more human. Ok, so Thomas Jefferson had a black mistress. She was probably a real cutie. Hooray for black women.

Sure, Wyatt Earp was a saloon owner, gambler and adventurer. He was a cowboy. That's what famous cowboys did, if they wanted to become and/or remain famous. Go Wyatt! I mean, he couldn't have been a preacher; nobody would have taken him seriously.

Mozart talked dirty? So do all the baseball players, and most of congress after you get a few drinks in 'em. Meh. That's normal.

It's nice to know that your heroes are human. It makes it easier to identify with them. If you can see yourself in your heroes, you love them all the more.

Well, my hero is not your usual scholar, adventurer, humanitarian, or politician. My unlikely hero is the wonderful Walt Disney. This man came from a very humble background and within his lifetime made an everlasting impact on all of our lives. Without Mr. Disney's creativity, insight, and persistance we wouldn't have an entire genre of entertainment known as animation. He was a genius in many aspects and if I could choose a mentor (dead or alive) it would have to be him. Mr. Disney has provided me and I am sure most of us countless hours of joy and happiness. All of our lives have been impacted by this man in ways that we aren't even aware of. His entire purpose in life was to create prototypes that would improve the quality of all our lives. He of course was the brainchild behind Epcot and Disney World, but even more importantly he pioneered camera technology for both civilian and military purposes in the early stages of his career that impact us everyday. Mr. Disney's optimism and creativity have touched all of our hearts and minds for many years. He was a self made success that I personally will always seek inspiration. Walt Disney developed a universal communication throughout the world. Thank you Mr. Disney...you are MY hero.

By the way, I forgot to mention earlier. I am a direct descendant of Pocahontas, or as a cousin refers to her, "Grandma Pockey". So there will be no denigrating remarks about her, if you please...

Pocahontas is a fascinating person in early British-American history. She didn't marry John Smith, but married John Rolfe, a successful tobacco farmer. They apparently had affection for each other. She died after a voyage to England. She had contracted either TB or smallpox in London. After the ship left England it returned to England where she died.

She and Rolfe were courageous in their day. They married outside of their race and religion. Although, I read that she at some point became a Christian.

The English experience in the new World can be contrasted with the Spanish experience. The Spaniards freely intermarried with the Indian women very early on.

You can find heroes everywhere in everyday life. Many, like Rolf and Pocahontas defying the status quo out of love and romance.

My best female friend is a California-born, mixed Spanish and Aztec lady. I have experienced the prejudice she gets when we go out together. It's very subtle, but it's there. And that's in L.A. a multicultural international metropolis.

This has been a great conversation among all of us!

to ExPat:

I absolutely love that you have dubbed us “Peterman’s people”. That has a wonderfully poetic ring to it. Henceforth, may we always be known as Peterman’s People!

I would like to address an interesting turn on this board: Shortly after thecatalyst mentioned that we should turn “certainly not to Hollywood” for our heroes, Mackdaddy proceeded to nominate Walt Disney for the title. In this respect, I am more in Mackdaddy’s camp. While there’s plenty of trouble in Hollywood, to dwell on it potentially makes us guilty of the very kind of hero-negating pessimism that we have all been speaking against on this board. Once again, genius covers a multitude of sins, and Mr. Disney was one such genius. They still exist even in Hollywood. For every DUMB AND DUMBER, there is also a SCHINDLER’S LIST (speaking of heroes).

And, while we have spoken primarily of great courage and important socio-political causes, I do think there is heroism to be found in being a great artist. Often enough, one inclination will lead to the other if the opportunity arises (and heroism is surely the child of opportunity). Mozart’s potty-mouth certainly doesn’t make his music any less glorious. Toulouse-Lautrec’s vile temper doesn’t make his paintings any less captivating. Hemingway’s love of blood sports doesn’t make his writing any less brilliant.

In view of all this, I have no objection to the inclusion of George Clooney. As the director of GOOD NIGHT AND GOOD LUCK, he created (to my mind) a lasting work of art that has genuine social value and provokes both thought and feeling. If his more recent LEATHERHEADS – intended to inspire a lovely combination of laughter and nostalgia – was less successful in its efforts, that’s okay. Heroic efforts are enough to make a hero. Look at Count von Stauffenberg, a legendary failure. It was the attempt that made him a hero and the lack of success does not strip him of that status.

And don't forget Michaelangelo, who's genius clouds the fact that he was obnoxious, vile tempered, and while painting the Cistine Chapel refused to bathe. The smell of his unwashed body apparently was ripe enough to keep the Pope from coming to close. This pleased Michaelangelo who didn't have to listen to the Pope's criticisms of his painting. I've heard genius is "pain", but genius "stinks" is a different concept all together.

My daily showers must have kept me from being fully creative.

ExPat

one of "Peterman's People".

To DreadPirateRoberts:

My point was that there is plenty of real-life heroism and it's all around us. We don't need to look only to history or fictional characters such as Superman and Spiderman to find it.

Another thought provoking day in the neighborhood. Well done all!

To Our Host:

Please forgive me if I inadvertantly suggested that we appear stripped of our individuality. I just liked the SOUND of "Peterman's People". The alliteration and implication of the common bond and similar interests appealed to my sense of poetry. I certainly did not intend to stamp anyone with labels. My apologies if I am too easily interpreted that way.

Speaking of poetry, I've been thinking in the context of Lord Byron. A brilliant poet and legendary lover who brought a heightened sense of pleasure to all he encountered, he was fiercely loyal to his friends and his ideals. Sympathizing with the cause of Greek independence against the Ottomans, he gave his life at the age of 35 in a fight that was not his own.

to thecatalyst:

Speaking of misinterpretations, I apologize for having misunderstood your point about Hollywood. Your point that there are fine heroes and role models all around us in the real world is well taken.

Of course, there are some very interesting lessons to be potentially learned from the heroes of drama (be it cinematic, theatrical, or literary). Police Chief Martin Brody, though a fictional character, bears many admirable qualities of our most heroic neighbors and could easily have lived in the real world. Similar praise could be lavished on Norma Rae, Rocky Balboa, and others. But you are quite right, we can easily find heroes among our ancestors and neighbors even if we didn't have the natural inclination to create them in our great works of drama.

We need our heroes now more than ever. I teach freshmen and even though they don't admit it, they are looking for heroes every day. They see the "Hollywood Hotties" and the other young celebrities for what they are. Teaching them about real people who are real heroes on a large or small scale helps them see that they can believe in something.

By the way, in teaching symbolism to them, one of their assignments was to bring in an item with some history that they either knew or could research and write a J. Peterman like description of that item. The assignment worked out better than I could have imagined. We had a lot of fun with the individual assignments. Now we need to put them all together in a catalog form. Does anyone have any suggestions?

My comment about "Peterman's people" was meant to identify the community of unique individuals who visit and participate at this site. It was not meant to indicate a group of followers. Or as "hero worship". We should all live are own individual, heroic life.

We are certainly "individuals, curious, interested, and intelligent". That, I think, is the common bond. It's nice to have a forum where we are respected for those qualities.