The Eighth of Ten

I'll go ahead and muddy the waters from the get-go. My prerogative as Posta Prima.

The risible idea that the state should kill its prisoners as a "punishment" smacks the teeth and gums right out of the mouth of so-called "fundamentalist" types who believe in the primacy of "Life". And given the same fundy penchant for political power, one has to wonder if there's any Emperor at all under those invisible garments.

Choose Life! they say. Except in the case of the convicted. In that instance, "KILL!" And likewise in the matter of military service... "KILL and/or BE FODDER!!! We don't really care!!! Somebody's gotta die, and it may as well be YOU!!!"

Ahh, the joys of living in a country with a serious collective psychoses.

We often complain about our legal system, but after watching several episodes of Locked-Up Abroad, having a cousin who was wrongly imprisoned in Brazil for two years, hearing details about the show-trial silliness of the two Americans now imprisoned in NK as well as the ordeal of North Dakotan Roxana Saberi in Iran, the ineptitude of the Portugese police investigating the disappearnce of Madeline McCann, and the stupidness of Amanda Knox's trial, I cannot help but wonder whether ours is the least evil among the alternatives.
 
What scares me about our system is the interaction of people with the first layer of it, the police. Between their extreme hostility, their highway robbery in Texas, their lack of sense of perspective and priority, the ridiculousness of their insane high-speed chases, and their wielding of the murder instrument known as the Taser, it's easy to think of them as thugs.
A Tennessee highway patrolman was fired two years ago when he pulled over a racy woman and offered to forego citing her in exchange for fellatio. She obliged him, and he turned his dashcam to catch it all on tape. Films like "Training Day" and "Serpico" are derived from amalgamated truth, and they fill me with contempt and unease around police.

I often quote a friend who was fond of saying that the fellow who wants most to be a cop is the last person you actually want to be a cop.
 
 

Mr. Isles may be interested in the "seamless garment" movement, otherwise known as the consistent life ethic.  It opposes capital punishment and war as well as the destruction of the defenseless innocent.  Also, there's this thing called the Roman Catholic Church.  ;)

Shandonista: You're exactly right. The only person I have ever known to want to be a cop was someone with only a gossamer-thin layer between him and skinheads. He's someone who judges situations way too quickly and too shallowly, and gets a gleam in his eye when the possibilities of danger and violence are brought up.

Cruel and unusual punishment........the victims didn't get a lawyer, or a judge or a chance to argue their cause.  In many cases they were tortured, children abused for many years...children!  Little innocent babies who did nothing more than trust an adult and suffer for the rest of their lives for in payment for that trust.  Cruel and unusual punishment?  Not so in many cases; they won't get to do it again.

I, on the other hand would like to offer a moment of silence for all of those "cops" who have been killed in the line of duty and their families. I have visited the wall that displays the badges of those police officers killed in the line of duty. In Chicago it's a busy wall.   I also offer my thanks to the many who are the first to respond to all manner of life threatening emergencies and catastrophes, both big and small. I even appreciate the ones who ticket unsafe drivers and manage to get the DUI's off the road. I pity the one's who are the first on the scene of a fatal accident, or the ones that have to deal with the carnage of domestic violence. 
It's always the very worst of the group that make the front page headlines and the nightly news. The vast majority of police officers who honor their vow to serve and protect remain transparent to the general public, or if they do make the paper it's because of deeds of heroism that appear on page seven or perhaps the obituaries.. 
Abuse of power can and is found in every walk of life. It seems it is always the "bad apple" that was discussed just the other day that gets noticed. 
I'm admittedly biased when it comes to the subject of police officers.  
Two of my brothers are retired "cops". They both live in modest homes with their families, and both of them perform volunteer work for their community. One of them gave me my first speeding ticket when I was seventeen. My oldest brother, he's twenty years my senior, served as a "field medic" in the Korean "conflict" before becoming a police officer. I remember the look of fear on my Mother's face every time the phone rang late in the evening when that was his shift.  

Having said a all this, I believe the onus is on me become bit more objective, a little more sensitive, before depicting an entire profession in a bad light based on only bad experiences from the "bad apples".

Peace out..

nicely put Peter......
 
 
 
 
since many ( or most?) of us are familiar only with virtual death(including myself except for human anatomy classes) it might be interesting to see if anyone's opinions concerning the death penalty change if they observed an execution of another human.
I wonder if a majority of combat veterans are in favor of the death penalty or not.

PeterLake:  Spot on, yet again. You are already one of the most thoughtful, sensitive, and objective members of the Eye; being proud of your brothers and their contribution to a safe society is nothing to change. 
 
I agree that the bad apples tend to get all the publicity, just like soldiers who commit atrocities against an often-defenseless enemy on foreign soil.  I know that those guys or girls are the minority of the force and whenever something  like that happens, I tell myself that the honorable members of the force, whatever force it may be, probably recommit to take their duties more seriously.
 
Every profession has its share of bad apples; in those which carry lethal weapons, the bad apples tend to be more newsworthy.

Agreed, Peter Lake, Miss Blue, and Shandonista.  Coming from a family of war veterans, police officers, and even my own child who was accepted into the NJ State Police (and later decided against for higher-education reasons), I know the integrity of these honorable family members.  I am proud of one and all.  It is certainly easier to be an arm-chair judge and jury.....but I am not the one on the streets or battlefield placing my life on the line.   

As the mother of a law enforcement fellow, I must echo Peter-- the men and women I know in this field are dedicated, courageous humans. They take on enormous risks to serve--and it is painful for them to have the media focus on the tiny percentage that misuse their office. The officers I know have entered the field because they believe they can make a positive difference in the world -- that they are tasked with saving us from the bad guys. I would encourage you to spend some time and get to know these fine men and women -- and remember when someone is highjacking your car or breaking into your house -- who will you call? Aren't you glad they're there! And remember behind every one of those men and women is a family at home trying not to think about what could happen if they let their guard down for a moment. Every time you see an officer cross the line after a car chase or after an arrest -- remember that they've just spent time on high alert with the adrenaline spiking trying to save both their lives and yours. Yes they make mistakes but in the vast majority of cases they are people with kind, loving hearts trying to do their job to protect us. Sorry, don't mean to pontificate but it's painful!

We had this debate with a group of high-schoolers back when I was teaching, here in France.  They seemed to think that the death penalty was letting criminals off easy.  It's much worse, one girl was saying, to let them suffer a long time (if not a life) of mistreatment within the general population.  I myself wonder which is better.  The problem with the death penalty are those who end up falsely accused...

In defense of the service professions;they run into a burning building,while most people run out.Punishment? Have you ever been ashamed of punishing your child,(or yourself) too severly?

I'm all for the death penalty ~ Eye for an Eye ~ It's neither here nor there ~ I know I know Jesus being on earth eradicated all the old laws from God listed in the Old Testament..At least thats what some Religions teach us.. Yet I believe that maybe God was a little less tolerant in the Old testament than in the New Testament & the NT it were the idea that "everyone gets trophy & no should be graded" really began...
 
Yes with the discovery of science many people have been let out of jail as they are innocent. My father & Uncle were Correction Officers each of them had over 25yrs working there ~ EVERYONE in that place was innocent.. even the ones where the video tape evidence & the DNA matched up... Don't get me wrong I LOVE a good Conspriracy Theory, but I find it hard to believe the same person put all those guys behind bars..
 
The only time I have found my father to find the courts unjust is 1 case. The case of "Bambi" Lawrencia Bembenek ~ The whole GBCI could not believe she was found guilty when she ran pretty much the whole state of WI cheered for her....That was over 20 years ago.. http://tinyurl.com/kn6bqs
 
We have been arguing about the case of John Maloney who was an Green Bay Arson Investgator & has been accused of killing his wife by settting her house on fire in Feb. 1998. I still claim he was set up & is innocent, my dad however is totally sure he is guilty.
http://tinyurl.com/nw4y2k I contend that the Kids who swear he is innocent are the best witnesses to the case. I feel a chil dknows there parents & what is going on.. those kids have not wavered form the fact that their father is Innocent in over 10 yrs...every time it comes up for appeal we have the same argument...
 
Then of course theres's Steven Avery..  http://tinyurl.com/nhdcd4 Who cost the state thousands of dollars by being let free due to the discovery of DNA science & really most likely NEVER should have been let out to begin with & they still did not get charges filed against everyone who helped in the killing of that poor girl that nite... I'm all for WI having the death penalty & I think Avery really should be the first to FRY.....

 

"cruel and unusual" also applies to lesser"crimes" than capital crimes. In our pioneer history, hanging for stealing a horse was not viewed as cruel or unusual.  I understand how important a person's horse was in those days.   Now, however: it seems a tho we could use a paradigm shift in the definition of crime.  Perhaps it is cruel and unusual to imprison those who have violated the consensus norm.  The legalization of marijuna would be one paradign shift.  Imprisonment seems cruel and unusal as opposed to drug rehab.  If we, as a nation, could further change our perspectives re. crime and punishment, perhaps a kinder and gentler  way of being could be engendered.

The death penalty is a difficult topic for me.  Logically, I know that it does not serve as a deterrent to crime.  I know it is the height of irrationality to kill someone to show them that killing someone is wrong.  I know that it simply creates another murderer, the executioner.  I know that society should have progressed beyond this crude manner of punishment. 
 
And yet, and yet, I still cannot abide the idea of certain people retaining the ability to breathe.  If someone harmed my child, I would want this person to die.  Not lounge in prison for decades, reading and working out.  Not reflecting on his/her misdeeds and perhaps even seeking God's forgiveness. 
 
As our ancestors did with an unwanted member of the tribe, some must be cast out so the other members can live safely.  Life is prison, to me, isn't casting them far enough. 
 
However, having said all that, I suppose I'm more against the death penalty than I am for it. But I doubt I'll be attending candlelight vigils anytime soon.
 

Excuse me, life IN prison....

I am not against capital punishment....my comments above might give that impression. I do think there is a grey line  between killing and murder.
I DO think I would be able to kill if I or my family were in danger.
I would not be able to throw the switch for an execution.
 
I'm with shandonista with isolating really violent murderers and child /repeat rapists etc. But lets really isolate them. Solitary confinement and no parole. humane but not overly comfortable facilities. maybe even the ability to commit suicide if they wanted. hey, they've already killed one or more times...... wonder how many could do that. ?
 
 
And how many of us would be willing to sit on a jury for a capital case?
We want to complain of the outcome of trials but many of us will do anything we can to keep from making that sort of commitment to our justice system.

I believe it was that youthful philosopher and knighted senior-citizen, Mr Jagger, who said EVERY COP IS A CRIMINAL AND ALL THE SINNERS, SAINTS, but then, he said it in SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL...  I have had occasion to know plenty of  law enforcement officers, and, while no single rule or phrase describes them all, a large number of the do seem to have gone into their chosen line of work because it alowed them to drive fast and to shoot guns- in short, to do what the rest of us are not supposed to do.
 
In MAMBA'S DAUGHTERS, DuBose Heyward describes municipal court as a kind of raucous half-organized nightmare, where the average accused person is chewed up and spit out, but those who have lawyers to reason with the judge on their behalf and to advocate for them end up with a little mercy and even occasional compassion.  My small experience of the Criminal Justice system tells me that, like the rest of our government, we are lucky we don't get any more of it than we do.  The overcrowding tends to work in favor of most people- more deals, lighter sentences, but also plenty of incentives to cut to the chase, ignore the finer points, hurry on through.  I believe the percentage of convicted people who pled guilty (as opposed to going to trial) is in the high 90s. Now some of them surely got offers they couldn't refuse, took a plea for 5 years instead of the risk of a trial for 25.  But most of them- the  guys Rings referred to  above- went to prison because they swore to tell the truth and then told a judge they committed a crime.
 
As soon as you introduce a second option, some person is going to take it- delay, delay, delay in hopes of some small stroke of luck. Deny, deny, deny in hopes that the right people might believe him.  And over time, the stories we all tell ourselves tend to become more and more favorable towards us. So, yeah, the prisoner almost always got a raw deal, contrary to what was written down at the time.
 
 
John Cheever's FALCONER deals with that idea very effectively. 
 
I think plenty of people agree with Shandonista about the occasional need for the death penalty.  I didn't hear many people complaining about Timothy McVeigh being put to death, for instance.

I believe that one of the many definitions of insanity is the belief that a perfect system can be designed, implemented, maintained and administered by imperfect people in a very imperfect world. In this world, even a flawed system that tries to be just is a beacon of light.

Is our system of justice the best that we can hope for? I hope not.

Who benefits the most from our current system of justice? The accused? the victim?, good people who do bad things? Bad people who do bad things?.... or society as a whole? The answer to that will always be "it depends".

I watched the movie "Sleepers" the other night which is based on a novel of the same name that was "based on fact", written by Lorenzo Carcattera.

The movie is a perfect example of how impossibly complicated our system of justice really is. How difficult, if not impossible it is to get all of wheels and gears of the machinery of justice to be in perfect alignment to yield a golden truth.

This quote from the movie, which is set in Hell's Kitchen, does a pretty good job of illustrating some of the challenges and flaws of any system of justice:

"Court is for uptown people with suits, money, lawyers with three names. If you got cash, you can buy court justice, but on the street justice has no price. She's blind where the judge sits, but she's not blind out here. Out here the bitch got eyes".

Anyroads, if I happen to stumble upon a great idea, or even a semi-good one that will help improve what we have; you'll be the first to know. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

I think the death penalty would be a deterrent to crime if it were applied appropriately and with speed. 
 
I mean: a person convicted of a capital offense and sentenced to death today can figure on a good long time sitting in prison.  Away from the general and dangerous population, they have time to paint, read, eat, bathe, and breathe. Time to write their biographies.  Time to write their own versions of If I Did It.  Time to be interviewed by novelists, time to go to the library, pretending to study law books, to mount another defense that will hopefully save their sorry arse this time around.  Time to write hundreds of letters to Barry Scheck, assuring him that "some other dude done it" (SODDI defense), and that you deserve his services more than any other death row denizen.

My point is that, today, if you commit a capital offense, and get the death penalty -- you're not looking at the needle or Old Smoky or gas jets or any other manner of death.  More often than not, you're looking at lots of time to live. 

Time, and that's the rub.  I say put a cap on the amount of years a convicted felon has got to mount an appeal, let's say 5 years maximum, and then I think at least some people will think twice before they murder their child, their spouse, their boss, whoever. Before they buy that gun, ant poison, whatever - they might just think "Hey, I don't want him to live, but I sure don't want to die." 

And if they know that from the time they are sentenced, they've got 5 years to appeal and that's it - I think the death penalty would be a deterrent to capital crime.

I don't like the whole sorry idea of punishment, I wish we lived in Peter Lake's world where folks wish each other "peace out" and who believe in "live and let live" above all else, and not one of them was a sociopath or ever felt a murderous urge.  But that's only a daydream.  We have some really bad people here in this country who don't do the right thing, won't do the right thing, and who ultimately commit crimes so heinous that they no longer deserve the pleasure of breathing.

And for them, there should be the death penalty, with 5 short years to get busy getting their appeal together -- and then that is it.  Your time on earth is up.  For the worst of the worst in our society, I think this is the right way to go.

I'm with Miss Blue on "Solitary confinement and no parole. humane but not overly comfortable facilities."   These Criminals are living on MY DIME & are having perks that I as a free citizen cannot afford. Cable TV, Workout Centers, Internet Connections, and the one that P*SSES me off the most is the fact they can get College Degrees. I know countless people who would LOVE to have their school paid for & have played by the rules of society & are getting nothing.. yet a guy commits 2 murders gets 2 life sentences & while in prison gets a college education.... for the record Life does not mean life it means 20 yrs or possibly more depends on which state you live in or if you're on death row. 
 

And that guy who hacked up 20 cats, family pets, down in Florida (?):  he gets the next available electric chair appointment.
 
Good thing I'm not a judge.  He'd be really sorry he did that.
 
 

Exactly, rings.
 
Life is usually a couple decades, depending. 
 
Juries quite often, don't know this.  The law says that a juror must not consider punishment while deliberating guilt or innocence. 
 
This results in a lot of verdicts that might be otherwise had the jury known the consequences of finding a person guilty or not guilty of one degree or another of the crime they're accused of commiting.
 
And the above is the worst sentence I've ever written -- at least lately -- but I'm too confused, myself, to try to change it.

It looks like the subject brings out the activist and Philidelphia lawyer in us all.  I started my answer this morning and ther ewas nothing.  I added to it on the fly throughout the day.  Wow!!!! lots of good stuff here.
 
So here is my take: 
 
Who saw the movie Childing with Angelina Jolee?  There are lots of "May It Please the Court" issues in that movie.  One is about the ‘police state' of LA in 1928.  And to think it was a true story strikes the fear of God  on the slippery slide to a police state her ein America.  When the Hill, the House and the Press are all on the same side one must be ware.  But the issue that touched a nerve for me and broached by Peterman, is the death sentence.    That is as sticky a wicket as abortion, our euthanasia.  On that subject I always reflect back on classics by Hugo and Dostoevsky, where they examine the subject in novel form. I forget which Hugo book it was that puts in dialogue from the mind of a guy going to his execution.  He describes how at that crucial moment the accused finds his confession and seeks forgiveness.  So should we psyche people out and really not kill them?  Is Farhenite whatever the answer?  Is an eye for an eye beneath us?  Is death more cruel than having a guy spend life in hard labor prison?  Back to the movie; the accused is put to death for the kidnapping and killing of 17 young boys. In a period movie of 1928 to 35, the judge handed the accused a two years in solitary confinement and to be concluded with death by hanging, where apparently he found god or at least struck a deal with god.  In his execution he sang silent night...read in to that for a while.  And tell me if the sentence was appropriate.  In the end of the movie the mother of one of the victims, learns that while his son was on the list of those represented by human remains, new evidence suggests her son may have not been included in the killing.  She is however not disturbed by any injustice, likely because there were 17 boys killed regardless of names.  This suggest that to her it was not about retribution, but solely about justice.  She also found hope in knowing that her son may still be alive.  So there are moral questions and technical questions to the death sentence.  I don't think there is one right answer that you can apply with consistency...but I am thankful to not have been in a position to answer it.

Fascinating day on The Eye.  As an Attorney and former Federal Judge, I think I will plead the 5th but enjoying the opinions.

Cruel and unusual punishment is very much a sticky wicket, particularly when you look at the words cruel and unusual.  What constitutes cruelty?  Some would say that depriving someone of their freedom of movement is cruel.  What is unusual?  The death penalty has been around longer than the written word, so in the eyes of human history, an execution isn't unusual. 
 
Those in favor of harsher punishments (hopefully not making a stereotypical statement here, just an observation) often make the argument that the person who committed the crime caused cruel and unusual harm to their victim.  Which does make a lot of sense.
 
But we have to remember, the Bill of Rights is a list of rules for the Government, not for private citizens.  Freedom of speech does not absolve a person from their responsibility for what they say.  So, the cruel and unusual rules can only be applied to the government, via the courts and prison system.
 
Does it strike anyone as odd that if the government commits an action it is a just punishment, but if a private citizen does the exact same action, it is a crime?  If a parent locked their kid in a windowless room for weeks at a time, they would be convicted of abuse.
 
I don't seem to be taking a side, do I?
 
And where do creative punishments come into this?  With the huge numbers of inmates who are crowding the jails for relatively minor crimes, I wonder if there isn't a better way.  Which would be a better deterent for a DUI: A weekend in jail (in some places, the prisoner gets to choose their weekend), or a month of having to ride along with EMT's to every car fatality?  Is a short couple of years in jail (where they make new contacts) a better punishment for drug dealers than making them hand-work a farm for a summer?  Is a better punishment for petty theft jail time, or having all of their possessions auctioned off and the money given to the victims?
 
The jail system troubles me.  Yes, there are violent offenders who should never see the outside of prison walls again.  But there are also folks in there who could be rehabilitated if there were proactive programs that would teach them while limiting their freedom of movement.
 
Then again, I am also in favor of sending some of the more salvagable criminals into the military.  You take some kid who sees his life as stuck with no way out but dealing drugs and run him through Paris Island, you have a better than average chance of turning out a decent human being and a productive member of society.  And when they go home, they can be a neighborhood role model to break the cycle.

Rings,
 
Lets go have a drink together.  Your comment "These Criminals are living on MY DIME & are having perks that I as a free citizen cannot afford. Cable TV, Workout Centers, Internet Connections, and the one that P*SSES me off the most is the fact they can get College Degrees."  And let me buy.
 
My eldest son as able to get a  academic ride for tuition in the last four of his five year BS program.  He/we paid for the room & board.  He took on a girlfriend who received a complete full ride.  While she is a bright woman, the free ride it was not because of her grades.  It was because here mother has been in and out of jail for her full life.  So appreantly as I learned  even the childern of chronic criminals get rewarded with a college education.  Now the wants to do post grad work and get her law degree.  She, being a product of her environment,  thinks the legal system is too hard on criminals and that they all should get a higher education as part of rehab and in place of incarceration.  As a lawyer, she would advocate for this 'social cause'.  And to think some lawyers become activist judges, making her a potential Madison tradegy.
 
Now on a funnybone note.  When I was in high school for some reason I read 'framers' as 'farmers'.  Being a city boy I too was once of the Madison mind that 'farmers' did not know what they were doing.  I am not sure when that light came on, but over time some have come on and now some are growing dim....now if I can find my car keys I'll be on my way.

I've been reading upthread:  one problem that I see with "solitary confinement and no parole" is that someone who has committed a death penalty qualified crime is going to look at that as life.  His or her life.  And they'll figure:  well, it ain't good but it ain't bad, I don't get the needle. What those of you who recommend "solitary confinement" are banking on is that the convicted person has a conscience.  And that all that time, a lifetime alone in prison, just the prisoner and their thoughts -- it will be torment for them. I don't think it's torment for them.  I don't think most of them have consciences.  I think you and I spend much much more time mulling over whether the death penalty is humane than any prisoner spends worrying about the pain their victim felt when they killed them. As far as getting along in solitary, it would make me nuts for a while, but psychopaths and sociopaths are adaptable to most any situation, and they tend to do what they have to do, behave in an acceptable manner, become quite likeable -- in order to get whatever it is they want for themselves in prison.  They are quite able to make a sort of heaven of a hell, sociopaths, and LWOP isn't any kind of punishment for this kind of person.  It's not even close to being adequate for whatever death penalty worthy crime they committed. If someone can figure out a good punishment for these kinds of people that isn't death, I'd love to know what it is, seriously.  But sociopaths have no concern except their own happiness and pleasure, and so it seems that the only punishment that would even register with them is taking away what they love the most.   Which is themselves.  Remove themselves from their lives.  I think they'd get that.   I think they wouldn't much like it.  At all.

Michael,
We sent the dreagz of society to Viet Nam.  That didn't pan out to well.  In my discussion with my sons girlfriend, that went well into the night.  It dawned on me ...about dawn, that perhaps with all the zeal in her arguement, she should not make her mark in the legal system, but rather get way out in front of it as a social worker of sorts.  Not the government type, as we now can say that does not have a track record for panning out either.  She sincerely responded that it would be a better avenue.  She asked me how to get started...the best answer I could give her was Bill Clintons book, inspiring book on NGO's titled Giving.  I think he has done more for our country in his post presidency than he did as President.  I think if him and his wife could get along that is truely her/their calling as well.
 
 
http://cigarroomofbooks.blogspot.com/2008/01/giving.html

Wait a minute:  I wrote that "solitary would drive me nuts for a while."  X out that "for a while."  It would drive me nuts.  Period.  Because I've got this Big Bad Conscience that just never, ever gives me a break.

Paul: I don't know if that is the right advice for your son's girlfriend or not.  It takes a very special person to do social work.  My mother, before her teaching career, worked for about 2 years as a family social worker for the county.  She still has nightmares about having to take children away from their parents for their own good.  So, if she is up for it (it has a higher burnout rate than teachers), good on her.  But it isn't a path anyone should take lightly.
 
Also . . .
 
I had heard about some of the people sent to Vietnam in a sort of "join up or go to jail" program.  I wouldn't write off the idea because of Vietnam, where everything seemed to be FUBARed from day one.   And I certainly don't think that the military is a cure for the criminal mind.  I had a student who was an Army Reservist, an Iraq Vet, and on the state's burial team (he had to miss class a few times for military funerals).  Halfway through the semester, he was arrested in a paedophile sting for soliciting a police officer who was posing as a 14 year old girl for sex over the internet. 
 
I know there are bootcamp type setups in some states for minor crimes.  Maybe I should hold off on my assessment until we have more data from those.

Michael,
 
I agree.  The government social worker is not what we talked about.  I am very anti government of any size, and side with Thomas Pynne.  Take a look at my link to my review on Clinton's book.  It was the first nice thing I've ever said about him.  And have since said a few more.  I agree that Viet Nam as being fubar from the beginning starting with Wlson.  One folly of errors after another.

We have professional judges....why not professional jury members? People from all walks of life who would be screened and would serve terms, and would be paid a salary just like in the military.
And if we had a few less criminals by having a few less criminal offenses, well that would free up courtrooms and make justice move along a little quicker for murder trials etc.
Now I know what you are going to say... I don't care if you shoot heroin, but I care if you rob or kill someone to get the money. and let the punishment fit the crime. Too amny tax dollars spent keeping non violent criminals locked up and paying too much for highway maintainence etc. WORK the debt to society off.
Maybe more time spent doing labor would mean less time spent in jail learing to polishup one's criminal skills. and if you are lucky enough to get work detail....trying to escape should be punushed severly.

Paul Murphy-
I am interested to hear why you are "anti-government of any size."  How do you propose that huge number of people live in groups?
Some here may know that I work for state government.  I don't ask my question because I fear for my job security; I am simply interested in how 6 billion of us could live without some form of organization.

I suppose we could take this to the marijuana debate.  I have never smoked any.  In fact, until I was about 28 (I'm now 31), I didn't even know what it smelled like.  Until, for several weeks, I had a neighbor who had the smoke just boiling out of their window and into mine.  I didn't know what that smell was, I just knew it gave me a headache and a bad disposition.
 
Now, the argument is, should people be going to jail for marijuana?  And the truth is, I don't know.  What I do know is, the cases for pot possession clog up courts and jails.  If we removed all the people who are in the system for pot crimes, the efficiency of the system would be greatly improved.  Police would be able to concentrate on other, more serious crimes, there would be a new source of tax revenue from the sales, and the product could be regulated to get rid of the toxins and maybe get it back to the relatively safer version of the 1960's and before. 
 
But, then again, pot is illegal, and if someone gets high and gets behind the wheel, they are a danger. 
 
So, again, my only answer is the one my dad told me was the smartest thing a teacher can say: I don't know.

are violent crimes on the rise....I think so. one reason ( in my humble probably really don't know what i'm talkin about opinion) is that we don't teach morality in our schools anymore because we are affraid to step on someone's toes by forcing our views on them. BULL CRAP. There are some thing that are just plain wrong. I don't care if the guy you killed was from a rival gang and he felt yo sister up....killing the guy was wrong.
I don't crae if your dad beat you and your mom....if you went out and killed someone its wrong. Start teacing good citizenship, consideration, manners and OMG morality in the schools again.
Gonna have to do some stuff we used to do like.....take the kids out of a home before its too late. Before they are exposed to a gand/crime culture.Might even save their little lives.
Stop glamorizing the bad guys on TV and in videp games. We have to take a moral stand on stuff at some point. I don't care if you lightup. Buy your tax stamp from the government and grow youe 4 plants or what ever. But don't get behind the whell of a car.

michael.....
a Chesapeake police office was shot and killed last year knocking down the door of someone who an informer said was growing  pot in his house. The guy shot the officer as he crashed through the door. It was a bad neighborhood and the fellow had been recently robbed. poor guy was convicted of murder. and the poor policeman's kids will grow up without him. Good use of resources....I think not.

Miss Blue: I would be fine with teaching morality in schools.  In fact, I think we should.  As long as the moral lessons aren't taught through religion.  Any religion.  Teach them right from wrong, teach them responsibility and self-reliance, teach them that their actions have consequences, and teach them to help each other for no reason other than it is the right thing to do, and I think crime would drop.
 
That is a tragic story about the police officer. 

Way too many people sitting in jail on marijuana related charges. Way way too few people staying in jail for child molesting.  Pedophilia.  These people reoffend with rapidity and regularity. Let the smokers go! and fill in the spaces with pedophiles for the rest of their worthless recidivistic lives.

Park4: I have watched too many episodes of "To Catch A Predator".  And the worst part of that show is at the end when they show what sentences those perverts get.  6 months probation?  Is that even a punishment?  In those cases, I wish the federal system would take over for the states and make a consistant punishment: 20 years for the first offense, life for the 2nd. 

michael....
I grew up as a religious minority in the public schools. my parents just asked that i not be forced to read from Christian scripture for the morning inspirational readings and that i not be forced to say the Lord's Prayer etc. I was required to read from my scriptures when it was my turn etc. We had actual classes in citizenship. i don't care if you put a manger etc on public property, just don't pay for it with my tax dollars. i'm very open minded to any belief system that teaches right from wrong and the proper way to treat your fellow man. Don't ask me to understand Honor killings etc.

oh...there was also a strict dress code and an honor code. If you were caught cheating, you were diciplined.
girls who became pregnant were not thrown baby showers . They were 'sent away" to the  resident girls home to live and continue thier schooling downtown or seen at home by the public school tutors until it was time to go back to school. archaic I know, but their circumstances were not glorified . Fewer fatherless children? Single mothers have it tough. kids from this situation are more likely to make poor choices themselves. Children need 2 parents(and I don't care what sex the 2 parents are)But young girls don't always realize what lies ahead and/ or that's all they have ever known themselvs as a lifestyle.
 
Now I will prepare myself for my execution.....

PARK4, Michael.
....womwen and children do not receive proper justice for crimes committed against them, even here ,even now!

women...i can't type today.

OK, maybe I'm just in a bad mood 'cos it's hot, humid, I've been working in the yard, my knee is throbbing, the market is down, and my vicodin has not kicked in yet.

But it seems to me we just might be using too big of a paint brush, using to broad of a stroke when we say things like "we sent the dregs of society to Vietnam".  

How about a little sensitivity here? I doubt that I'm the only one reading this that has lost friends or relatives, none of whom by the way are considered to be the "dregs of society". Because someone could not afford to go to college or had an unlucky number in the draft lottery does not in my mind diminish their worth to society.

I hated the war; not the soldiers. They wore a uniform but still fought to maintain their individuality and worth under unimaginably horrible conditions.

Sorry if I over reacted. When I read a blanket statement like that it just stops me in my tracks and I start channeling Yosemite Sam and The Tasmanian Devil. Maybe it wasn't meant that way.... I hope not 'cos it does seem out of character for here.

I'd better stifle myself for now and take a nap. Talk amongst yourselves, I'm feeling a bit verklempt.

Peace out

Miss Blue: On the girls becoming pregnant: I'm not sure what system works best.  Should it be up to the state to provide daycare so they can finish school?  I don't know.  But I do know that some of the places that pregnant girls used to be sent (and I'm talking about in the 1930's or so) were far from good.  The people in charge would verbally, emotionally, and in many cases physically abuse the girls.  When the baby came, the girl would have no choice but to give it up for adoption, even if they wanted to keep it.
 
It happened more often than people think.  Just ask if any of the women in a family who were alive back then (don't know the dates, but a rough estimate would be 1920-1950) ever had to go away for most of a year to take care of a sick aunt.  That was a code for going to a home for pregnant teens.
 
I have thought and continue to think that education is the best way to cut down on unwanted pregnancies.  Make everyone understand just what they will be giving up to a pregnancy, and how difficult the choices they will have to make are, and maybe they will decide to hold off on sex for awhile.  Or, at the very least, take some precautions.

Peter Lake....
we have the same knees....
Also, when I was a freashman in college I was In a very hot arguement with a grad student . he claimed that war( at the time the conflictin in Nam) was just another model for natural selection. We took it to the dept head.
I won the argument with the premise that the draft took the BEST( healthy, above or average IQ....no obvious physical flaws etc) young Men and killed them on the battlefield instead of randomly selecting soldiers from the population and therefore skewing things against the natural selective process.

I will be light.  How can you have a list of prison movies with out Brubaker

Agree, Michael. Both your idea on teaching morality (what harm could come of this) without anyone's god involved, I'm all for it.  And your comment about pedophiles and punishment:  yessir.   Thing is, pedophiles (male) are active thoughout their lives, into their 60's and 70's.  If they offend at age say 20, rape or otherwise sexually molest a child, odds are it's not the first time, and definitely not the last time.  But the sentence?  20 years will let him out at 40, as sexually able and interested as he was at 20.  What to do?  Pedophiles don't fit into any other criminal group, and it's really difficult to apply the rules that are applied to other offenders.  But I'd say 20 years for 1st as you said, then life for 2 offense, is a better place to begin than what we have now.

Park4...
you are correct. we should turn the other cheek once. Turning the other cheek means giving a second chance, not turning yourself into a punching bag!

back to the garden....it's cooled off a little.

Time to hit the library, then home to see what there is in the cupboard.  Thanks for the conversations today, folks.  I've cut off my at-home internet connection, so if you don't hear from me until tomorrow, that is why.
 
Peace and Wine to you all.

Miss Blue:  I hope you smacked that grad student. And I hope that wasn't his thesis topic.  Or maybe it would be sweet justice if it were.  In which case, he's probably still in grad school trying to figure out why he can't graduate.  (It's hot and muggy here, too.  I'm in PeterLake's part of the world, and it's really uncomfortable.  And I've got a knee that's killing me, bursitis is in it, and I don't have any vicodin.  All this by way of asking forgiveness for being a bit "overly" on this topic, today.  On the other hand, it's hit a nerve.) Nonetheless, mea culpa.

Shanda,
 
I am of the mind whether framers or farmers, our founding fathers envisioned limited government and spellout a limited role for government.  We had Roseevelt, then Johnson, and now Obama ushering governmnet programs that would draw everyone of them out of their graves.  When I heard Hillary's campaign crys that I am a servent to the people, I quaked in my boots.  I guess you can say I am a student of Austrian Economics.  I'll use stadiums as an example, if its a good idea then let capatilists build them. In stem cells if it is really a viable answer, there would be tons of capitalist all over it.  Flipping the coin over look at what Hillary Clinton did to the flu shot.  Where once we had 36 suppliers producing a vacine for everyone twice over, every year were hear the cry of shortages because we only have two producers left.  I am pretty sure that the our farmers did not comission Franklin to discover electricity, or the wood stove or any of the other things he invented. 
 
Being that you are a government worker, I hope I didn't offend you.  Being that you asked you get. If I did sorry aheads of time.

 One of the many things I enjoy and respect the most about this neighborhood is that it reminds me of the cartoons that featured the big sheep dog and the wolf that was always trying to outwit the sheepdog and steal some lamb chops.
They would fight tooth and nail all day but when the whistle blew, the would quit fighting and both would then clock-out on their time cards at the time clock hanging from the tree and wish each other a nice evening and a promise to see each other again in the morning; as if nothing ever happened.
I think that's pretty, pretty, awesome.

Peter,
 
Trust me I am on record here last week saying nothing but good to our soldiers coming home from Viet Nam.  I am also one of the few who make an honest attempt to rationalize and even defend why we were there in Viet Nam.  But surely you know of the offer to many of prison or Viet Nam.  It was one of the many mistakes we made.  There are many stories on how that program failed and cost live of our good soldiers.  When I meant dreagz...I meant criminals.  I hope this takes the swelling out of your knee.

Paul.......
wasnt the federal government set up only for our mutual defense and to deliver the mail?.....now look what it's become.
I do support stem cell research though.It's the oly hope for spinal injuries and my retinas.

Paul,It took the swelling out of my knee and my head.  I shoul have known better 'cos it just didn't sound like you. Yes, I am aware of the offer.  I'm pretty sure it's done in every country.   ONe of my favorite movies of all time is the Gary Cooper, Ray Milan version of Beau Guest.  I still would like to join French Foriegn Legion despite their recruiting methods..... great uniforms.  Be well

I've said before that I worked in a trauma unit and a big ER for as long as I could stand it. A couple of years, if memory serves. Worked with doctors and nurses, cops and firemen and EMTs. We saw things that took a bit of exorcism. Far too often we worked with the results of bad people exploiting the weak and defenseless. Far too often the consensus in the unit was that this guy should receive the cruelest and most unusual punishment possible, while we put his child or his wife or girlfriend or grandpa back together if possible, or sent for the morgue if not.
Some people don't deserve to live, and they don't deserve an easy death either.
Sometimes it's obvious, the evidence is overwhelming, the Evil One will confess, even. In those cases, a round of quick justice out behind the courthouse might be best. Leave the SOB for the urban coyotes...
Who decides?
But sometimes what we think we know is not necessarily what really happened, so you have to be sure. In those cases, the death penalty can't apply. We have three boys-men now, but just boys when they were jailed-who are wasting away in prison because they wore black clothes and listened to heavy metal music, and some kids got killed by some creep, and a prosecutor saw an opportunity to advance his slimy career, and the community went along. Read The Devil's Knot by Mara Leveritt if you want to scare hell out of yourself with the potential for calamitous injustice based on superstition and manufactured evidence straight from Salem; see what a group of determined politicians and small town legal hypocrites can do when they find a scapegoat or three. Did the West Memphis 3 kill those boys for a Satanic ritual? It's probably impossible to know, the rigged evidence, the coerced confessions, the bizarre court proceedings have so muddied the water that it will never be clear. But it IS clear that they did not receive a fair trial, and it is just as clear that the local police ceased to follow any real clues once they had some 'bad boys' they could pin the crimes on. And now, after many years of life wasted in prison, new evidence is screaming for a hearing, people are pointing fingers at the creep, and the 'law' is still stonewalling. All they want is to kill those boys, those crippled men who grew up in jail. One is 'slow', one is confused, one is sharp and has always maintained his innocence and worked to prove it.
So yeah-sometimes it's not clear, and we have to work at it. We have to WORK for justice if it can be had at all. We have to continue to care about getting it right, instead of warehousing people we may not like or agree with and leaving them to while away their lives in a box. THAT is cruel and unusual, for some people don't belong there. 
A bullet in the brain of a repeat pedophile and a child abuser and a murderer is not.
Just another opinion...

PM:
I don't disagree with your example about the stadium...I've long said that if it will make money, a developer/company will do it and if not, the government will. (not necessarily should, mind you)  I view the need for government through my particular station in life, a public health worker.  Do we believe the need to protect the public's health exists? I believe so.  I also believe that no private company will do this.  Most people, including me before I started working for the government, don't know the many thousands of jobs that the government performs on their behalf.  Many complain that the gubmint is too big and wasteful.  Guess what, we are not getting rich doing this, unlike CEOs of privately run hospitals whose annual price increases far outstrip inflation every year and yet deliver a quality of care hovering abound #10 or worse in the world, depending on the measure.
I am not ranting at you in particular, but sortof of tooting the horn of public health, I guess.  It's just that I have been lectured to by staunch right-wingers about the evils of government and yet who do they demand come and remove a dead raccoon from their yard on SAturday because it may have had rabies but has not actually touched anyone?  Who will drive out to the middle of nowhere to draw blood from an unvaccinated child who may have the measles (a serious disease no matter how many of you had it as a child ) and race the specimen to the public health lab so that a lab tech can work on Saturday to test it?   No private company would accept this work because there's no money in it but it must be done nonetheless.  And done by completely unappreciated folks who carry a beeper 24/7 and never get recognized in the news.  
 
People are outraged that we don't regulate indoor air quality and won't tell the lady in their church with a rash to stay home.   Can you imagine how invasive government would seem then?? Believe me, government employees are among the last of us who want government to get bigger.  We have enough to do without some legislator adding on more duties for no increase in salary.
 
If we follow James Madison's view that the intentions of the framers should have no bearing on the court's interpretation of the Constitution, then perhaps we should accept that as the country matures and society becomes more complicated, the size and scope of government may also change from any intention the framers may have had. 

Paul Murphy ~ You're on for the drink.  :)   

Shandy-Thenk you, well said! I love a good rant...

Interesting thread today. Many entries go to great pains to agree with earlier posts, and yet no consensus whatsoever is evolving.
 
If I look back to ALL encounters with law enforcement officers over the past decade, I can't think of a single one that was not made gratuitously unpleasant or infuriating by the police officer. I used to live in Texas, and still have Texas annual inspection stickers on my cars. I remember being pulled over for speeding in arguing the most well-known speed trap in eastern Texas. The officer did not use any tone with me other than screaming. He looked at the back of my car (TN), saw the Texas stickers, and saw the fact that I have a beat-up old California tag on the front of the car (it's my way of remembering a wonderful friend from California who died prematurely). The officer began screaming at me: "What kind of  F------ BS is this? California front tag, Texas stickers and a TN tag. This is just a bunch of gdfbs." He slammed the convertible top frame with a sickening blow.
 
I was once pursued for 10 miles by a TN patrolman whom I'd passed earlier when he had pulled over someone. "Yew know why I pulled yew over?" "Not a clue," I said, and managed my most sarcastic smile. He told me what a horrible person I was because I had shown him "no respect" when I hadn't pulled over into the left lane when I'd seen him on the right road margin at his pullover. Well, the left lane was OCCUPIED at that time.
 
On more than two dozen occasions, we called local police because of clinic patients threatening violence or indeed behaving violently. In NOT ONE SINGLE INCIDENT did any of those officers ever show concern for staff safety, ever escort dangerous patients off the premise, or ever do anything other than dance around purported legal reasons that they couldn't help us. In all cases, I called the mayor's office to complain.
 
In April of last year, in among the worst of storms possible, my car hydroplaned, did a 180, and crashed into a guardrail. Was I speeding? No, I was probably going 30 mph. There was standing water on the highway, and hydroplaning accidents were occurring every 200 feet or so. I called for police help. After towing was set up, and after I expressed open gratititude to whomever for being alived and unharmed, one of the police officers underwent what seemed a sudden personality chnage, and wrote me a ticket for "failing to control vehicle." This special fresh hell is unique to Memphis, and is ALWAYS thrown out of court when challenged. When I expresed amazement at being ticketed, the Memphis police officer exploded at me and said, "Look asshole, you've got 5 second to sign that or I'll haul your mf'ing ass off to jail now."
 
I have befriended a group of Guangdong immigrants who have opened a very successful chain of very nice Chinese take-away restaurants. They are very kind people, I speak some Mandarin, and have seen them for free in clinic because they have no insurance at all.
 
I went into one of their stores one night, and saw the entire extended family huddled in terror, clasping each other, behind the cash register. a 500-hundred-odd pound Bubba was complaining that they had overcharged him by some amount less than a dollar, and he had called the police. HE was ostensibly drunk, but when I got in the police were acting menacing, stroking their gun handles and keeping their hands on their nightsticks. It was a scene of psychotic chaos. Chinese people are terrified of police because they are universally corrupt in China. The man was berating them in Bubba-ese, hard even for me to understand. I am a person of fairly small build, but I raised my voice above everybody else's and said, "THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!" I turned to the officers: "Why does this in ANY WAY involve you???" They looked scathingly at me, but a police officer's inherent sense of laziness will usually trump any other principle by which they live. They left.
 
When I was a teenager growing up in Winston-Salem, NC, I was riding one night in the car with my father, who was driving. Suddenly and for no apparent reason, he was pulled over by an enraged policeman, who alleged my father had done an illegal left turn. This was a matter of some dispute, and it was thrown out of court. It wsa thrown out of court because my father told the judge EXACTLY what happened: "...and then, the officerr screamed at me and said, "Because of YOU, I am being delayed getting to a shooting in East Winston'."
The policeman let out an oath and left the courtoom in humiliation, and the judge rolled his eyes at the cop, and said, "Next case."
 
I used to moonlight in an ER on a military base in NC, and had a shoft that ended around 2 pm. I'd always take the same route to a hotel. About 50% of the time, I was pulled over by an SUV with a bunch of idiotic MP's. They'd come to my car with guns drawn, and say something like, "I saw yer car touch the white line 5 miles back." Obviously this was perfervid utterbunkum, and I would always DARE them to ticket me. They were doing this to me so as to have a log entry that showed they were actually DOING something and not off in the woods smoking pot. One night they pulled me over again, and enraged, I got out of my car, and began walking to the SUV. I had all kinds of lights turned on me, and three rifles drawn on me. It is a fact that no weapons on base are loaded, and can only be loaded with a CO's radio command, so there was little to fear.
 
I walked right on up to the SUV and asked, "Why do you teenagers try to play this BS cat and mouse game with me every Saturday night?
 
"I AM DOING THIS TO PROTECT MY WIFE AND MY COUNTRY!" His comrades all gave him a WTF expression, and suddenly all the weapons were withdrawn, the lights turned off. The SUV drove off into the night.
 
And they never pulled me over again.
 
The fat man began berating them again, and finally I just raised my voice to him. "Fat man," I said, "YOU ARE CAUSING TROUBLE FOR NO REASON AT ALL, AND YOU NEED TURN AROUND AND WALK RIGHT ON OUT OF HERE RIGHT NOW!" I have to deal with drug abusers for a living, and many of them will shrink up when you raise your voice, show no fear, and give them explicit instructions. The guy turned and walked out.
 
Like my Chinese friends, like a close Romanian friend who refused to call the police when his house was burgled because he is terrified of the police, this is an issue where I declare common cause. I am not trying to step on anyone's toes. I am citing my observations. It's not that I think their methods are unsound, it's that I don't see any method!
 
Poll 10,000 people here and ask them if they have experienced maltreatment at the hands of police officers whose skin color is different from theirs. The results will shock you!!!
 
I have a patient who was mechanically sodomized by his mother every day of his life from the age of 2 until the age of about 14. Talk to him, and see if you're still against the death penalty. 

One paragraph is out of sequence above. Sorry.
 
I know a Schering pharmaceutical representative who had a prior career in law enforcement. With Schering's stock price sagging badly, he decided to try his hand at writing a roman a clef. He got it published.
 
I read it and...God save us, all of us, from law enforcecment officers.

Cruel and unusual punishment is placing legions of police officers on the highways imbued with the anile priggishness of people with nits to pick. I am talking about speeding tickets. Our country was settled by nutcase Puritans so miserable with themselves, they blamed their problems on their own countries and abandoned them. The legacy is that we deploy garrisons to go after minute speeding, a zero sum industry that doesn't fight crime at all.
 
Anybody ever gotten a speeding ticket outside the US?.......I didn't think so.

I support the death penalty and I support a real psychological evaluation for police officers. There is a big difference in the type of arrogance between future cops and future lawyers. Future cops think everyone's shit stinks; future lawyers think their shit doesn't stink. Had moot court and an epiphany tonight. Switching the major yet again to history. I'll graduate eventually. Fine Arts to Law to History, go figure. Cops around here aren't so bad unless you're black and in the suburbs. Dad worked for 9-1-1 for 20+ years but left well before the County 911 absorbed the City. Knew way too many cops and firefighters growing up; some medics too. One of the first times I got drunk when I was underage was because of a cop. But my town is an anomaly. I used to get in cops faces when I was 10 years younger and angrier that my status (albeit poor) afforded me more than others in this life. Imagine my shock when I met a girl and moved to the suburbs and experienced first hand what asshole cops were like. Couldn't go toe to toe with those chaps. Suburban White Boys on a Power Trip. I do like most cops. Some cops died recently here because of some psycho nazi asshat. Death penalty is a given and I couldn't agree more. Come a long way for secretly agreeing to "Free Mumia." Fuck that asshole too. Useless cop killer. Too bad Pennsylvania doesn't use the firing squad or the chair. Personally, I think the death penalty should be applied very rarely but very harshly and very publicly. If you kill with malice, you die; if you have sex or molest kids you die (unless of course, the age difference is very close and both parties are post-pubescent, but that's a debate about Megan's Law); if you rape, you die. Very simple. Apologies for the vulgarities; i've had a bit too much scotch tonight. 

Karmai swin swami
 
 
 
 
remind me never to get in a car and drive anywhere with you!