Butting Heads

It  was  a  long   time  coming,  our  first  ten  amendments  to  the  Constitution.  We  celebrated   1776  for  the   Declaration  of  Independence,   but  no  Bill  of  Rights  emerged  until  1791.   "Thoughtful"  would  be  the  polite  way  to  explain  the  process.     In  reality,  the  founding  fathers  had  major  differeces  when  they  dreamed  of  what  this  new  country  should  look  like.   No  one  opinion  prevailed  as  to  exactly  WHO  it  was  that  should  be  entitled  to   equality.   Did  we  really  want  EVERYONE  to  participate?   To  get  a  working  document  on  the  books,   the  language  had  to  be  vague.    America  still  had  slavery  in  some  states.  America  still  had  those  who  owned  property,  in  subtle  class  warfare  with  those  who  were  perceived  as  having  less  at  stake  in  the  new  republic.   Women  would  still  be  second  class  citizens  for  years  to  come.   But  the  foundation  was  built  for  the  house  of  the  freedom,   and  gridlock  finally  gave  way  to  partial  compromise  by  every  participant.   We  would  eventually  be  torn  apart  by  a  bloody  civil  war,   fought  in  large  part  over  the  issue  of  slavery.   Years  later,   other  congresses  would  add  critical  amendments  helping  to  clarify  &  expand  the  shape  of  the  experiment  in  freedom.    Women  would  acquire  the  right  to  vote.   And  our  courts  would  interpet  what  the  founding  fathers  would  have  done  under  certain  circumstances,   such  as  what  {if  any}  restrictions  should  be  imposed  upon  governmental  electronic  surveillance.   Some  called  America  a  "noble  experiment."    Most  of  us   are  privileged  to  call  it  "home."   
 

so where does "hey you kids,get off my lawn" fit into the picture? Every little kid knows his "propitty"

RoadYacht:   The  answer  to  your  question  can  be  found  by  renting  Clint  Eastwood's  recent  movie  "Grand  Torino."    The  little  varmints  that  decided  that   it  might  be  cute  to  trash  the  protagonist's  motor  vehicle  seriously  underestimated  the  old  man's  determination  to  avoid  becoming  a  victim.   Beware  of  those  individuals  in  life  that  either  objectively  or  subjectively  feel  that  they  have  nothing  to  lose.   It  is  little  of  a  deterrent  effect  to  have  the  penalties  for  homicide  include  life  imprisonment  or  even  death,   if  the  person  whose  feathers  got  severely  ruffled  has  terminal  cancer.   Govern  yourselves  accordingly!   Otherwise  you  may  find  yourself  staring  into  the  barrel  of   the  most  powerful  production  handgun  in  the  world  {no  longer  Clint's  traditional  choice,  sorry},   and  reading  the  eyes  of  the  holder  of  the  weapon  to  mean  "Go  ahead,  punk...make  my  day."

When dealing with a large and diverse group of people its hard to come up precise language that includes everyone.  The example of profiling hit home  In NYC subways ther police do "random" searches of bags of backpacks..  My last apartment was  near a very busy train stop.  Everyday I was stopped and the cops would look through my bags.  I'd have to leave myself extra time everyday because I knew they'd pull me over and waste 10 minutes.  It was inconvenient but I was glad that the cops were pulling over women who l did not fit the profile of a terrorist.   I understood that  it was not 'random" that I was picked.  They needed to stop a European-American  whenever they saw one or else the overly libral advocates would have put a stop to the searches. 
 
In theory profiling has to be equal. 

Bert:  Can you imagine what it would be like to write the Bill of RIghts today?  It  would take five years to get the first sentence down.
 
I agree that we are privelged to live here.  I am the daughter of an immigrant (father) and a first generation American.  I work with immigrants. Its amazing how the United States extends so many rights and priveleges to people who choose to come here.  All we ask is that they play by our rules.
 
This is a great topic but I will be out of the mix today.  I start the marathon of toy wrapping, coat collecting and food drives today.
 
I can wait to read everyone's opinions tonight.     

The above photograph is absolutely stunning. Makes me want to stay curled up in bed w/ a cat. Have a cozy day all...

America could use a lot more engineers in positions of authority.....  They don't meet to discuss the re-design of a drillbit or electric motor or traffic signal with their minds all made up before they ever meet.  If a drillbit overheats or an electric motor smokes or a traffic signal fails constantly, they don't argue -- they just go back to do some analysis and redesign based on how their concept failed.  Engineers are curious about how things work and delighted when (miracle!) something they figured out actually ends up working!  Yep, we need a lot more engineers running things (as long as they bring their 'engineering mind' to the table).

Even DISCUSSING ideologues here gives me the willies since they come out of the woodwork like termites from a fallen log..... I'm literally sitting here saying, 'Don't DARE tell THAT story or you'll have to spend 25 posts defending your assertion -- and at the end, only the ideologues will be left here.  Everyone else will flee to the comforts of eggnog and carols."  So........ [deleted].

Michael, I think I'd like to be in your class -- interesting discussions.  All the best teachers provoke thought and discussion and you seem to fit the bill.  I only wish there were more of you. 

Michael, I want to sign up for your class. 

Doc  Nolan:   You  were  right  the   first  time,   BEFORE  you  got  sarcastic.   Engineers  SHOULD  be  given  the  chance  to  run   things  in  America.    They  would  discuss  the  redesign  of  a  traffic  signal,   especially  if  it  fails  constantly.    They  are  curious  about  how  things  work,  and  delighted  when  something  they  figured  out  actually  ends  up  working. 
Specifically?   Specifically  I  am  closing  my  eyes.   It  is  1940,  and  The  400,  Chicago  North  Western's  flagship  train,   is  preparing  to  leave  the  downtown  terminal.    The  conductors  step  off  the  train,   scan  the  ramp  for  passengers  running  late  or  loitering,    and  the  senior  conductor  calls  "All  aboard!"    At  the  front  of  the  train  is  one  of  4  custom  made  streamlined  Hudson  4-6-4  locomotives,    painted   Pullman  green.    At  the  end  of  the  train  is  the  club  car,   with  the  observation  deck  filled  with  those  willing  to  brave  Chicago's  brisk  Winter  winds,    to  be  able  to  see  Chicago's  Loop disappearing  behind  them.   Then  the  engineer,  his  face  &  hands  weathered  by  exposure  to  soot  &  fragmented  hot  coals,  glances  to  his  right.   Chicago  North  Western  was  a  left-handed  railroad,   unusual  for  America.   The  fireman  looks  to  his  left,  their  eyes  meet,  and  the  engineer  nods  his  head.  His  right  hand  reaches  for  the  rope  with  the  wooden  handle  on  the  end.  Several  tugs  of  the  handle,   in  coded  sequence  &  lengths,   and  the  whistle  informs  everyone  within  a  mile  that  this  train  is  bound  for  Minneapolis -  St.  Paul.     400  miles  in  400  minutes,  breakneck  speed  in  1940,  since  several  stops  were  included,  to  feed  and  water  the  tender,  and  to  add  &  subtract  some  interlocutory  passeengers.   The  engineer's  gloved  right  hand  removes  the  air  brakes,   then  grabs  the  throttle.   Slow  but  steady  forward  pressure  causes  undetected  movement....until  the  cars'  couplers  tighten  up,   and  gentle  clanging  and  squeaking  informs  the  passengers  that  this   was  not  ANY  engineer,   THIS  was  THE  engineer,  the  pilot  leading  The  400  to  the  Twin  Cities.    As  the  train  fades  into  the  distance,   you  can  see  the  backlighted  sign  on  the  back  of  the  club  car's  ornamental  railing.   Chicago  &  North  Western.   THE  400. 

I couldn't agree more, Doc and Bert.  More engineers should be in politics.  A few years back, I read a survey of people's opinions of the trustworthiness of certain professions.  The top of the list?  Engineers.  Far above ministers, doctors, and lawyers.  Engineers don't care if you like them, it's all about the idea, the accuracy, the workability. 

Off topic... Any one know how time and gravity relate in Einsteins universe?

  

When told of the oldest person I had ever met, the sister of a friend and a history teacher knowing the name, time and place connected that man in, two generations, to someone who might have voted for Thomas Jefferson.

My mom, her father, that very old man on the porch of a little house that seemed never to have been painted, saying, like a string-pull doll, the words that had made him famous; his father and grandfather and almost all of American history.

That span seemed a lot shorter than it had and then, I delivered a package to one of the big houses near the campus and the man who answered the door, recognizing me from rec league basketball insisted I come in for a drink.

A large room filled with attractive smart people all talking at once had me drifting away to see as much of the public parts of the place as seemed polite.

In a library/office before a good sized reproduction of The Signers of the Declaration of Independence, sat a boy on a thickly padded oriental rug sipping a glass of Coke wrapped in tissue, looking up and listening to classical guitar.

He wondered would I be interested in knowing what he knew about his mother's special area of interest: menswear?

Her thesis had been that subject: what men wore, when and why and not in terms of fashion and style but function. This kid was well informed and in possession of the kind of fix on history that I was only beginning to appreciate.

He named many of the famous men in the painting and explained that the average guy of that period would have been found in similar breeches, stockings, waistcoats and such but of coarser textiles and probably sturdier footwear.

Seeming to want to disabuse me of he notion that they were dandies or sissies, he told of farmers and farriers, shopkeepers and teachers all looking like that and likely of English descent who had killed English soldiers and a lot of them.

"You look good by the way," he concluded suggesting, I think, that I fit the period in which I was living.

That boy, William, a half century ahead of me in understanding where he stands in the history of his country, is one reason that I bridle at the frequent references in this space to the hopelessness of our youth but it is easy to be smarter than me.

Stenciled on the dark chocolate wall over the sliding oak doors were these words:

"Peace is not the absence of war; it is a virtue; a state of mind; a disposition for benevolence; confidence; and justice."- Spinoza

William the product of generations of teachers in the humanities thought that he might break the mold: "I am better at science," he said.

I didn't ask for proof of that assertion.



The passing of Oral Roberts reminded me of a radio interview from twenty-five or thirty years ago in which the somewhat contentious questioner asked him about a number of persons who, appearing on stage over the years with Roberts for a laying-on-of-hands healing, had died: "How do you explain that?"

"Hmm, yeah, I dunno," he replied in a low gravelly voice, "but what I think it might have been is: we're all going to die sometime and they did it then."


And finally before setting in motion holiday preparations that have no end, I was surprised yesterday that BEBE failed to note that the cure for Astraphobia is apparently diamonds.

Leaving unanswered the question: What do you call the fear of sappiness?

 



 

Stoney~apparently the cure for sappiness is maple syrup  ;-)

Sorry I came across as sarcastic, Bert.... I was dead serious!  I have many, many 'arrows' in my hide from two decades of being flamed.... I will mention some topics I'll refuse to discuss here: socialism, liberals vs. conservatives, Israeli settlements, Ayn Rand, atheism, creationism and 'intelligent design', just to name a few.  Just posting this list makes me depressed.  Christmas simply isn't the time for me to discuss any of these.... So [devnul]...  There is SO much we have in common that it's simply moronic (in my opinion) to throw acid in the wheels of discourse by upsetting each other by touching on topics on which folks have ideological fixations.  Some topics are simply toxic....

Damselfly: They're cousins.

*runs back to the safety of the English Department*

  
Guest,

YOU tell the story of the waterman. I was watching his wife build a tower of french fries.

Your dad was thanking me for finding those antique nose glasses that he left which would have gone a lot faster had he not referred to them in his verbal message as "ponce nay."

Chili-dog Friday... yes!



Somebody make Peggy comfortable.

damnselfly - There was a brief instant in time when I was totally aware and possesed a complete understanding of all of the elements of Einstein's theories and how they related to each other, but unfortunately I received a 'bimp' on the head a momemt later and lost it all.  It had something to do with the number 42 and a guy named Floyd.

Since you're among friends here, Julia... just once, have you been tempted to put a box of donuts in your bag? Maybe a package of bacon? Something really insurgent-looking?

Compromise is an ugly word, in fact it is on the ugly word/phrase list along with frugal, "Another week of sub-zero temperatures", budget, sleet, and "they've all called in sick"

RoadYacht, I used to dream of one day being an old maid/crazy cat lady...sitting on the porch in a rocking chair with a sturdy broom propped up against the wall, and when kids came onto the lawn, chasing them away with the broom.  Of course I would have to have the obligatory house dress covered in an old "but good quality" cardigan whose pockets were filled with stale hard candy and kleenexes. 
 
But now I'm married with dogs and chinchillas and kids aren't the least bit afraid of me, they actually come to my door to ask me questions and beg me to cut them some of my roses to take home.  Some days I despair that I may never grow old enough and cranky enough to live out my dream.

Peter Lake:  I think the best explanation of Einstein's Theory of Relativity I have ever seen was from the movie Insignificance. Marilyn Monroe demostrated the theory complete with breathless sexy baby girl voice and toy trains.

  
Nachista,

One of the old ladies across the street kept an eye out for one of my brothers or me so that we could run, and she meant it, a postcard down to the post office about a mile away.

They had answers to questions we did not know: "Yes, yes, no, how dare he?"

They were being sent to persons who lived closer than the post office.

The pay-off was often a no longer wrapped, lint covered, sour ball smelling of Blue Waltz and dug out of the bottom of her purse. We wiped 'em on our pants and ate them.

  
There will be better times and places for this but...


'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him,
but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton

damselfly:  in everybody's universe, over the course of time, gravity makes all your good parts sag slowly downward.
 
 
 
;)

After we won our independence from Britain, we operated as a loosely connected series of inter-dependent states, under the Articles of Confederation, for eleven years.  Then came the pivotal point in our history, the convention that changed (and improved) the United States, and made us much more than a casual experiment. For some really interesting, thought-provoking material, I recommend the debates at what is now known as the Constitutional Convention, and the Federalist Papers, plus the Anti-Federalist Papers.  I would dearly love to have been a fly on the wall during some of those discussions! Short version: the debates forged what became our Constitution--the document that defines who and what we are.  They must have been emotional and extremely heated.  The series of Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers were articles published in the newspapers of the time, arguing the pros and cons of the style of government defined in the Constitution.  The Federalists were all for the document, as is, no channges.  The Anti-Federalists wanted MORE restrictions on government, and MORE definitions of Rights of The People.  And that's where the first Ten Amendments--our Bill of Rights--come from. I find it interesting to note that since our Constitution was instituted as the "Supreme Law of the Land," more than 10,500 amendments have been proposed.  Since adoption of the Constitution, only 27 amendments have been ratified, and there is constant argument about the validity of some of those. Yes, reasonable men agreed to disagree, and a nation was born.  Not in despotism nor opression, but in light and freedom.  The Declaration of Independence was the Promise; the Constitution was the fulfillment. As a closing, I have taught my children the Four C's of Life:  all of Life is a series of Conflicts.  Not fights or arguments, simply a difference between the way things are, and the way you wish them to be.  You then are faced with Choice--a fork in the road.  You must decide to go one way or the other to reach your goal.  You may not be able to make it an all-or-nothing decision, so you must Compromise to get part of what you want.  Above all, having made the decision and put it into action, you now face, and must accept the Consequence of your actions. Conflict, Choice, Compromise, Consequence.  Our courageous forefathers faced the conflict of opinion, made the choices, hammered out the compromises, and our nation is the consequence. //HERE ENDETH THE RANT// If you got this far, thanks for reading.  As you may surmise, I'm rather passionate on this subject.  :o)  I used to have my students divide into Federalists and Anti-Federalists and argue the points.  For a group of Army officers, the discussions got quite lively.  

The founders were radical enough to attempt what they did,  but homogeneous enough to be able to come together.  It would be difficult to do today what they
did then because the United
States is so much more diverse.

The founders were all men of property, most self
educated, with an understanding of law rooted in English common law, and there understanding
of government rooted in a parliamentary concept. Almost to a man they were ether
deist or protestant

I think they were also schooled in manners and courtesy, things that seem to be lacking in most,if not all,modern polotics,and discussions of same on/in media

Late to the ball again, I can only say thanks to Stoney, Bert, DocNolan, and PeterLake, who keeps our feet on the ground AND understands when it's essential to have our heads in the clouds. Talk about perception!

Of slavery, and of women as chattel, neither of which can be omitted when we speak of today's matters, I am ever stunned by women's then-position (despite Abigail Adams's writing repeatedly to her husband, "Remember the women, John"), and, worse, the embarrassing number of free blacks who owned slaves. Not just in the North, where many blacks and whites held slaves (despite uninformed opinions of some), but also in the South.

To the Club Car of thesepia train for Tom and Jerrys! It'll be my first, so I petition PeterLake to sit at my table and keep me in tow lest I embarrass all.

RY:  I heard that in the next edition of Merriam-Webster, the words ****, ****, and ***** will be added, while the word "manners" and "courtesy" will be deleted.
 
They will be archived along with other out-of-date words from Modern English, such as "May (I)" and "Excuse(me)."
 
 
 
 

Stoney:   Wondeful  quotation,  virtual  friend.   Wars  based  upon  hate  are  presumptively  unjust.   Wars  based  upon  preservation  of  country  &  family,   those  just  might  be  the  unfortunate  but  sometimes  "necessary"  wars  that  President  & Commander  in  Chief  Obama  referred  to  when  he  spoke  in  acceptance  of  the  Nobel  Peace  Prize.   Some  in  the  audience  did  not  feel  comfortable,  hearing  that  America  for  60+  years  has  largely  on  its  own  propped  up  the  free  world  from  Communist  aggression,  and  recently  from  Sadam  Hussein,  and  from  international  terrorism.    God  bless  our  perennial  allies  the  French,  but  sometimes  I  just  want  to  reach  out,  and  wipe  that   smug  grin  or  distasteful  look  from  the  faces  of  their  politicians.   Hitler's  biggest  obstacle  in  WWII  in  France  was  not  heroics  by  French  soldiers,   but  the  sheer  logistical  nightmare  of  having  to round  up  and  accommodate  so  many  gratuious  surrenderees.....   Of  course  in  recent  years  the  French  have  had  no  problem  selling  their  air  to  ship  missles  to  countries  like  Lybia,  never  mind  that  one  aircraft  penetrating  the  100  mile  perimeter  of  a  seemingly  invincible  ship  like   the  USS  Enterprise  can  put  the  vessel  on  ocean's  bottom.....    Rats,  I'm  getting  my  blood  pressure  jacked  up  to  unacceptable  levels.
 
Doc  Nolan:   I  was  NOT  criticizing  your  fondness  for  controversial  topics.   Hell,  the  Bill  of  Rights  specifically  gives  us  the  ability  to  say  what's  on  our  mind,  even  if  it  is  controversial.   I  say  go  ahead  and  speak  right  out.   Sometimes  I  may  agree.  Other  times  I  may  disagree.   But  I  will  always  treat  you  {and  anybody  else  who  excercises  civility  in  their  presentation}  with  dignity  &   respect.   234  years  ago,  ordinary  Americans  picked  up  their  muskets,  kissed  their  wives  &  children  goodbye,  and  marched  off  as  militia  to  encounter  what  was  then  the  greatest  army  on  the  planet.   For  those  gutsy  men,  as  well  as  for  the  courageous  women  &   children  who  supported  their   risky  sacrifices,  I  respect  all  posters,  protesters,  editorialists,  critics.   Just  stay  out  of  my  face,  when  your  nose  is  2  inches  away  from  mine  you  are  asking  that  its  cartillege  {sic.}  be  rearranged,  that's  MY  personal  space.   But  be  civil  and  play  by  the  rules,  and  you  may  feel  free  to  challenge  just  about  anything.  I'll  be  darned  glad  to  live  in  a  place  that  tolerates  the  free  &  open  exchange  of  ideas.
 
Santa  c/o  John  Peterman:   So  do  we  get  Spell  Check  for  Christmas?  We  have  all  been  good,  and  I  will  personally  leave  out  cookies  &  a  glass  of  milk  for  you.....

I think spell check is less JP and more tech wizards.

I don't post much here but I do read often. The discussions are often a bit beyond my realm of knowledge so I don't often participate but rather choose to read others thoughts to gain the experience and learn something.  But I feel that Doc Nolan has done all a disservice. His post about dealing with idealogues and defending his words seems mean-spirited and unwarranted.  I, myself, am very strongly opinionated but I'm not closed off to anyones ideas or points of view. It's not common that I would change my stance on an issue just through discussion with someone. But, hearing a differeing point of view, no matter how disagreeable or caustic it can be, is an enlightening experience in and of itself. Furthermore, a differing point of view causes one to go and re-examine thier own point of view. Even if that re-examination is in the form if reassessing your stance to formulate a logical and rational argument or rebuttal. Needless to say, strong opinions often get put forth through strong words and I can come off as uncaring and insensitive. Because of that, I am often met with consternation and ridicule while having my words, position and even character attacked by the nameless, faceless hordes on the Intarwebs. Sometimes a strong response is warranted and the whining retorts it garners need nothing more than to be ignored and dismissed as what they are. I have found, on occassion, that when I am about to voice a strong opinion with strong words that often times I need to do nothing more than write my response, let it sit and come back to it later and re-read. This allows me get out of the frame of mind that brought me to the strong opinion. It allows me to go over my response and sand the sharp edges off. So if you're like me and you get the criticisms and attacks, maybe it's not your words that are the problem or even your stance. It's most likely your approach. A simple change of approach can avoid the ire of your peers and eliminate the harsh critisms and attacks. Besides, momma always told me you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar! With that said, I feel that discussions are lacking when those involved have something to say but stay mute and deprive the rest of us of the chance to hear thier words, see thier point of view and share the experience. We lose not only an interactive experience but a learning experience. I, for one, would love to hear your comments. I am a big boy, like I'm assuming many others here are as well, and I can take it.  That should go for everyone. You don't have to cowtow to someone's sensibilities (or lack thereof) nor do you have to coddle thier feelings but a small amount of common courtesy and simple decency can go a long, long way.

oh bert, i have a great cookie recipe!!!
 
i'm grateful to have been born in the united states of america.  that being said, i'd like to add...re-elect no one !  their a far cry from our founding fathers and what they stood for.  jmo
 
excuse me, please.

Damnselfly - Many thanks. I'll have to petition that demonstration from Netflix so I have yet another worthy perspective of "what's it all about, how did it happen, and why does it still work".  

Georgia - I would be honored to be the guardian of your good reputation and even better virtues. After all, I am the designated train engineer.

Cuukoo1 - Missed ya kid. Welcome back.

pl...smiles, if you can break away, some of us will be pulled up to the bar in the club car....telling jokes, laughing and being silly!

Peter Lake: One of my favorite movies of all time is Mindwalk. It is not for everybody...no cars blow up after chacing each other through city streets...it is basically a discussion between a politician, scientist, and artist about how the world was seen to work in the past, how it is seen to work now, and how it may be viewed in the future. Let me know what you think of Insignificance.

I have to defend Doc, not that he needs any help with that.  No one could be less mean-spirited than he.  I happen to know exactly how he feels when he says that sometimes he'd just rather not post than have to explain and defend.   Certainly, we've all felt that way from time to time. 

Shandonista, your defense of Doc Nolan is unecessary since no attack on Doc was waged. If stating that his statements seemed mean-spirited and unwarranted is an attack on Doc Nolan than I am really out of touch. But no attack nor judgement against Doc Nolan was intended nor made. I commenetd on the comments, not the commentor.

Politics is one of those subjects I do not discuss. It never goes anywhere productive.

Ynsats:  Thanks for posting.  Keep it up!

damnselfly - unfortunately Netflix let me down but I'll keep en eye out for both Insignicance snd Minwalk on the Sundance Channel and IFC.  They both look toothsome in their own way.  Thank you for the suggestions.

cuukoo1 - The Club Car magnet has been turned on and I am being pulled, without a whisper of resistance, to the source of the sounds of laughter and friendship. Save a seat by the window please...... I hear we're having cookies for dinner tonight; pizza for dessert.

Well, robert, it's a good thing you weren't one of our Founding Fathers or we'd still be looking for ourselves.
 
Just joking, sort of.
 
But I don't understand why it is people who don't ever discuss politics feel the need to announce that they never discuss politics.
 
 
 
Okay.....that said.....
 
Hello gg!!  GIMME A COOKIE, WILL YA?  THEY ARE DE-LISH!  ;)

PeterLake, definitely cuukoo's cookies.  A couple of those, and I'm not sure you'll feel like having any pizza.
 
but we can try.
 
What's on tonight, in the Theater Car?

PARK4 - You pick the flick.....

When I thought about today's poll question, "Who are you" this popped into my wee bit of a brain.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yGarEaWt5M

so what if it's a bit out of context...

  
My late father-in-law used to get in heated ideological arguments with his mother-in-law. She had dough, he did not.

Then, his business and investments took off and she was living on a fixed income.

They found themselves changing sides and it was funny to see.

Sitting in at a seminar for a guy who would have been fired for missing it, I enjoyed the arguments between people wanting more government involvement in society and those claiming to want almost none.

The teacher smiled and observed that he would give plenty to be around when we, all of us about the same age, reached medicare/social security retirement age.

I didn't know then what he meant but do now and it would be nice if all of you could enjoy that feeling of relative security... you wouldn't want to count on that amount of income though.

It's Bogie Night on TCM.  All night long.  But here's the first three.  After that, you're on your own, I'll be asleep.
8:00 pm EST
Maltese Falcon, The (1941)
Hard-boiled detective Sam Spade gets caught up in the murderous search for a priceless statue.
Cast: Humphrey Bogart, Mary Astor, Gladys George, Peter Lorre Dir: John Huston BW-101 mins, TV-PG
(This is the one where bert can get dressed up in his 1940's duds plus fedora, and role play a really cool, really tough guy (that's Bogie, bert) doing what a cool tough guy did in bert's favorite era.  One of them, anyhow.
Oh yes! 
10:00 pm EST
Casablanca (1942)
An American saloon owner in North Africa is drawn into World War II when his lost love turns up.
Cast: Humphrey Bogart, Ingrid Bergman, Paul Henreid, Claude Rains Dir: Michael Curtiz BW-103 mins, TV-PG
All together now, in our best Claude Rains voices:  "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

This is a guy movie, I think:
12:00 Midnight EST
Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The (1948)
Three prospectors fight off bandits and each other after striking-it-rich in the Mexican mountains.
Cast: Humphrey Bogart, Walter Huston, Tim Holt, Bruce Bennett Dir: John Huston BW-126 mins, TV-PG
 
 
 
I don't know if this is a guy movie or not, but this gal really likes it.  It's got Kate the Great in it, plus Bogie.  And a boat.  And strife.  I mean, it doesn't get better than that, now, does it?  If I'm awake, I'm watching it:
2:00 am  EST
African Queen, The (1951)
A grizzled skipper and a spirited missionary take on the Germans in Africa during World War I.
Cast: Humphrey Bogart, Katharine Hepburn, Robert Morley, Peter Bull Dir: John Huston C-105 mins, TV-PG
 
 
See you there.
 

Tig Deupre: Thoughtful & passionate post, virtual frend. Never apologize for the passion component. Hell, it's nice to listen to somebody who actually stands for something!

Ynsats: Post more often, it would be a privilege to hear more from you. And thanks for another vote in favor of civility. You can ooze passion for your beliefs, but you can point out why you respectfully differ from others. Once you commence firing with barbs referring to your opponent as a "blockhead," they stop listening, and start reloading.

Cuukoo1: Was that a rhetorical question? OF COURSE I WANT A COOKIE! But let's take a deep breath before discarding every poliician at once. The founding fathers set up the Senate so that no more than a third were up for reelection at once specifically to avoid an over-reaction by the voters, which would result in the lack of continuity of workable government. Oh yeah, did I mention that I wanted a cookie?

Park4:   I  just  read  your  recent  post,  and  I  am  dusting  off  my  favorite  fedora,  and  finding  the   appropriate  braces  {suspenders}  for  my  suit.   Got  the  pocket  watch  on  the  chain,  the  same  one  my  grandfather  used  to  keep  the  trains  on  time,  just  replated  and  upgraded.     Got  to  the  part  where  you  reminded  me  that,  when  it  comes  to  still  being  anything  close  to  a  tough  guy,  sometimes  {and  especially  after  a  few  rounds  in  club  car}  I  have  a  penchant  for  becoming  a  legend  in  my  own  mind...lol   Glad  you're  back.

I couldn't help reading a lot of comments here. Some are fascinating. Some are mystifying. I'm not sure what Bebe meant? What paragraph? I thought Julia Masi was quite thoughtful. Was this the mention of "immigrants?" another hot button issue? Who knows since Bebe was above the fray. To Doc Nolan, I can sympathize about not getting into these topics. Since it brings out the nut cases. And where is Jalopkin (sorry I actually like Jalopkin) when we need him? Poor Mr. P. He gives us a delightful topic in Tiddlywinks, and some people think it's not worth discussing, although they miss the point.  Now a subject like ideologies, which is fascinating is too serious to discuss? I think not. Even in the Christmas season, life somehow goes on.
 I think the Founding Fathers, if they were around today, would be extremely flexible. Extremists on either side are people who are threatened by ideas.

I heard there were cookies here... *wanders off in search of cookies*

A cookie ideologue. I know the type.

nachista:  you have to be 21.  They're very stiff cookies.  Very festive, if you get my drift...
 
 
 
 

bert:  have I been gone?  You said "glad you're back" and I didn't think I'd been anywhere.
 
thing is, that's the second time someone said that to me today, on a message board.  Except on that board after they said "So you're back," they followed with, "You're out of line."
 
Huh?
 
Well, one:  I was never gone from there either.  And two, honest and truly, I am shocked, shocked I tell you that I was told I was out of line, since I hadn't yet said one darn thing.
 
 
I'm sure I'm here, reality-wise, but I'm having a bit of trouble it seems when it comes to virtual visability.  And then to be told I'm out of line when I hadn't even got in line yet.
 
It's a cold cruel world out there in the internets. 
 
I think I'll just go look for cuukoo and nachista and some cookies, and find the classic film car, and see how Sam Spade handles his problems.  He's tough.  I wanna be like Sam.
 
Line 'em up...
 
 

dessert pizza? dzrt lady? hey, where is her? izit chokolate?

I'm well past 21, and my cookies are stiff. Not as stiff as they used to be.

Hope I'm not too late...stiff cookies and politics what a lively bunch today.  Tig Dupre--bravo!  I plan to quote you to my children.
 
As for the Founders, yesterday I drove through the Capital city past the Capitol into a quadrant I've never seen before to donate books to a charter school.  Turns out my great-grands are buried in this part of town, as it is really a small town for natives.  My grandmother's high school is still standing but grandfather's school closed with the threat of integration.  I'm equal parts amazed at how far we've come and how far we have to go. 

JMR- My word was photograph. I love the clashing elk- it made me feel wistful this morning.Wistful for what I'm not sure- since I'm not an elk & have never crashed my non-existent antlers w/ another elk.
 
PARK- You movie guru you! My mother always loved Ingrid Bergman(still does) & she would never let me pluck my eyebrows because she believed in that natural look. I'm glad that I never plucked. May I have a few cookies please? I'm so tired that I only had wine for dinner. I have "Casablanca" on as we speak, but must get up at 4:30, so must leave it soon. Swoon for me please...
 
DOC- I am absolutely crushed that you mentioned Ayn Rand as a forbidden topic. D**n!!! My husband makes fun of the fact that I love "The Fountainhead." She was a complex, strange person and I think that book & movie are GREAT!!!!!!!!!!! What a romance, what a man-that Howard Roark. If you ever get the itch to tell me your views on her- I'm all ears.

Just a short note and a bit of clarification.... I don't mind LISTENING to ideologues and other varieties of folks who are convinced they have found The Truth. I frequently learn from them, though their contribution is more often than not that of the wrang-wrang. But even when I can demonstrate an ideologue is totally wrong, I've found it is an unproductive use of time trying to convince him/her that there's a flaw in their reasoning, or that the facts support more than one interpretation. This suggestion seems usually to send them into a tizzy, and they begin emitting distressing accusations, hostile words, lies, deliberate misrepresentations, and other 'stuff' they collectively refer to as 'winning'.

One very unpleasant time was back in my New York Time Abuzz days when a nice lady who had hosted a Palestinian student dared to point out that there were two sides to the problems between Israel and the Palestinian people.... The discussion -- over several weeks -- culminated in her being attacked as a 'Nazi bitch' (not my words, but those of the flamer). Any Jew who spoke up in her defense was snidely attacked as 'a self-hating Jew'. At this point I left. The New York Times decided a few months later that their discussion forum had turned into a 'hate-speech' site and shut it down. I got my share of hate when I stood up for her, and it was very unpleasant!

So... if I refuse to argue with ideologues it is in part to keep from getting all 'riled up'. When I do offer thoughts in my occassional discussions with ideologues I have no hope of getting these folks off their obsession; I offer my thinking for the lurkers who have a wider perspective. And I suppose part of the reason I detest trying to 'win' arguements is a mixture of the old wisdom of Dale Carnegie http://www.notesofintelligence.com/influence/basic-summary.html and the fact I rather dislike conflict. I'll fight if I have a chance of winning a fight, but I find engaging in deadlock a horrible waste of time and of energy. Better to walk around the mountain than to try to blow it to bits.....

Fortunately most folks are not ideologues. One can have mutually productive discussions and learn from each other.... but the true believers are sui generis.  Having locked horns with self-admitted communists, self-described fascists, way too many racists, Biblical literalists, a few Sunni extremists, and many Jews who can't tolerate any criticism of Israel, I'm just plain 'tuckered out'.   I'm out of that game.....  Let those who wish to be gladiators take my place.

Man, was Ingrid Bergman beautiful.

Bebe, ditto.
 
I believe someone mentioned dessert pizza?  Mmmmmmmmmm.  But I can do you one better, fruit cookie.  Roll sugar cookie dough on a jellyroll pan so it is about 1/2" thick and bake.  Top with sweet cream cheese frosting mixture, cover that in fruit of choice and then cover that with a simple syrup that includes some of the juices from the fruit...cut and serve.  A lot of people call that dessert pizza around here but I think fruit cookie is a more accurate description.